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[Raonar]

Sarah1281 wrote...

From Dirt and its sequel are both horribly depressing. Basically, if something CAN go wrong then you know that it will.

Hmm, all the more reason to read them then, since I'll do a fair bit of depressing later on.

[Costin_Razvan]

but I'm quite certain you'll approve of what Raonar will do about Loghain when the time comes.

Will I? Not sure about that.

I do not think Loghain made any mistakes, and that I approve of all the choices he made. Really I see many Loghain fans says he made mistakes, that he should not have declared himself Regeant but there was no certainty that Anora would take the throne.

P.S. First chapter of Strands of Fate up! http://www.fanfictio..._Tides_of_Blood

 Ah, well I guess I'll have to get started on those pretty soon. I have no delusions that my story is 'the best', not by far, so no worries there.

That was meant in reply to you saying Sundered Order was the best

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 août 2010 - 07:56 .

[Raonar]

I didn't say it was the best, what I meant was that it was better than mine

And I do think you'll like what will happen with Loghain... well, part of it at least.

I also think he did, in fact, make the mistake of looking at the Blight like it was a war instead of, well, a Blgiht (disease), and focusing on the supposed Orlesian threat instead of the Darkspawn. Even he says it was a tactical error if you ask him why he divided the forces.

Either way, that the situation escalated into a civil war is a pretty clear indication that something didn't go well.

Meh. Raonar will deal with it in his very own way when the time comes, regardless of who will hate him for it.

EDIT

I'm at work right now so I'll only be able to check out that first chapter of yours this evening .

Modifié par Raonar, 23 août 2010 - 08:24 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I also think he did, in fact, make the mistake of looking at the Blight like it was a war instead of, well, a Blgiht (disease), and focusing on the supposed Orlesian threat instead of the Darkspawn. Even he says it was a tactical error if you ask him why he divided the forces.

His focus was to try and unite Fereldan against the Darkspawn ( remember what he says at the first Landsmeet? )....but when you have four Legions at your border....well you can't ignore them!

Either way, that the situation escalated into a civil war is a pretty clear indication that something didn't go well.

Not a mistake on his part. The Civil War started because he declared himself Regent, but I do think it would have started even if he had not.

[Raonar]

Chapter 15: Rage is now up on FF.net.

Probably not as interesting as the others, since it's mostly transitory. The next one should be more excitng... I think.

[Sarah1281]

I can't believe you came right out and said that your HNF hates Loghain for hurting Alistair. I mean, I suspect that many of them do because of just that (especially some of the stories I've seen) but I've never seen it so bluntly declared.

[Raonar]

Well, she didn't really declare it, it was her thought process. And I did say that Gwen and Kallian had been in Ostagar for about 2 weeks before Duncan and the others arrived, so she and Alistair had spent quite some time together. I thought it would be a change of pace compared to other HNF/Alistair pairings to have them already involved with each other.

Though if you notice, she didn't say she actually loved him, that would be a bit too far at this point. All she said was that the playful, charming Alistair was gone and that was the only thing she had that could make the distress go away. Not as blunt as saying 'I'm in love with him', though she is.

EDIT

And Gwen IS a bit of a spoiled princess, though she'll eventually get over it (I hope).

EDIT 2

In other news, I finally got some more constructive criticism. Apparently, I should pay some more attention to describing the surroundings (smells, colors, sounds, etc.). At last, something to improve on.

Modifié par Raonar, 29 août 2010 - 07:40 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Totusi pare un pic cam ciudat, dar ai dreptate cred.



Oricum, ai facut o treaba buna, cred, facand un HNF asa....plina de ura.

[Sarah1281]

In other news, I finally got some more constructive criticism. Apparently, I should pay some more attention to describing the surroundings (smells, colors, sounds, etc.). At last, something to improve on.

If you want something to improve on, there's always the fact that occasionally you describe the action in parenthesis like (facepalm) or (giggles) instead of writing 'so-and-so giggled.' It feels more like script direction than part of the story.

[Raonar]

Ah, another thing to avoid then.

EDIT

Costin: Thanks, she's not totally consumed by hatred but close enough. And the fact that she hates those two people so much will be somewhat troublesome later on.

Modifié par Raonar, 30 août 2010 - 05:02 .

[Raonar]

Chapter 16: Blood Sacrifice is now up on FF.net.

Somehow, I can't seem to find the time to write these as quickly as I'd like.

[Costin_Razvan]

One week is good enough in my opinion. Though I do find it curios the DE, CE and DC assume Loghain did it for betraying Cailan even though they were at the battle and saw how badly it went.

So let me understand how you are going to handle romances. CE with DC, Alim with Morrigan ....Raonar with Leliana? ( I'm just assuming something here ) and of course Gwen with Alistair.

Oh and...what about Sten?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 septembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[Raonar]

I haven't forgotten about Sten He'll show up in the next chapter, quite a flashy entrance too.



CE with DC? Yes.



Alim and Morrigan? Yes.



Raonar and Leliana? Not exactly. I assume you got this idea from the fact that my DN romanced her in my playthrough? (and from that screenshot I posted a while back).



Too big a spoiler. I'll PM you instead



The DC doesn't really assume anything about loghain charging, he's too busy worrying abou a certain someone. Theron is pissed off at shemlen so he is incredibly biased and Kallian is 18 and not exactly a tactical genius. She is under the impression that Loghain could have saved the day if he had charged.

[Costin_Razvan]

What about Alim, what does he assume?

[Raonar]

He's a bit pissed off at something else right now but he's more cool-head than the others and considerably smarter.



The battle itself was, mostly, doomed. He realized that when he commenced the blood sacrifice ritual and entered blood rage mode. For one, he wasn't exactly sure how many men Loghain had and whatnot, and while his magic COULD have covered for Loghain's charge long enough for him to get the King out of there, he knows that there was no way for anyone to know he could actually do that epic stunt.



That was at first. Now he has to deal with the fact that Loghain put a price on the heads of Grey Wardens, so it's a bit harder to be sympathetic.



And was it really so obvious that Alim would romance Morrigan? I know the blood ice flower thing was a fairly straightforward hint, but still.

[Costin_Razvan]

and while his magic COULD have covered for Loghain's charge long enough for him to get the King out of there

You know, that's one thing I can't get about people arguing for Loghain trying to save Cailan. Don't people give a flying **** about the soldiers in Loghain's army?

Would a charge had saved Cailan? Perhaps, perhaps not, but one thing is certain: Loghain would have suffered casualties. Ranging from dozens of men to hundreds, maybe even thousands.

Certainly, Cailan is important as a king, and I can see why the CE would like him ( as naive as she is ) but why would Alim care so much for Cailan's life?

 And was it really so obvious that Alim would romance Morrigan? I know the blood ice flower thing was a fairly straightforward hint, but still.

I just assumed it based on their personalities.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 septembre 2010 - 09:06 .

[Raonar]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

and while his magic COULD have covered for Loghain's charge long enough for him to get the King out of there

You know, that's one thing I can't get about people arguing for Loghain trying to save Cailan. Don't people give a flying **** about the soldiers in Loghain's army?

Would a charge had saved Cailan? Perhaps, perhaps not, but one thing is certain: Loghain would have suffered casualties. Ranging from dozens of men to hundreds, maybe even thousands.

Certainly, Cailan is important as a king, and I can see why the CE would like him ( as naive as she is ) but why would Alim care so much for Cailan's life?

 And was it really so obvious that Alim would romance Morrigan? I know the blood ice flower thing was a fairly straightforward hint, but still.

I just assumed it based on their personalities.

Hey, you asked me what Alim was assuming, and that's what he was asuming. Don't think I don't know it was a bad idea for Loghain to just charge in and get his men killed . That was purely HIS opinion, not mine

Modifié par Raonar, 05 septembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Hey, you asked me what Alim was assuming, and that's what he was asuming. Don't think I don't know it was a bad idea for Loghain to just charge in and get his men killed . That was purely HIS opinion, not mine

But is your opinion presented in the game by any of the Wardens, or is Raonar also going to believe Loghain betrayed everyone?

[Raonar]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Hey, you asked me what Alim was assuming, and that's what he was asuming. Don't think I don't know it was a bad idea for Loghain to just charge in and get his men killed . That was purely HIS opinion, not mine

But is your opinion presented in the game by any of the Wardens, or is Raonar also going to believe Loghain betrayed everyone?

Raonar doesn't BELIEVE much. He uses logic whenever he does things. He doesn't really have an opinion yet and he'll postpone making one until later.

So, among the things he knows.

-Loghain acts in favor of what he thinks is Ferelden's best interest.
-Loghain TRIED to get Cailan to not participate in the battle;
-Loghain knew the darkspawn were many, but he didn't take Duncan seriously about the Blight, because of his obvious Bias against the Gray Wardens. On the other hand, Raonar doesn't know WHY Loghain has something against the grey Wardens, so he'll not judge him for it.
-The battle was lost anyway, so charging would not have been a sound tactical move.

I could go wth this list all day. Sufice to say, Raonar doesn't necessariuly BLAME or believe Lghain betrayed EVERYONE, but some people he DID betray (Eamon for instance) and he definitely doesn't approve of just proclaiming the Wardens as enemies of the state just like that.

Does he hate him/have any sort of feelings against him? No, he doesn't and he won't, because he is magnanimous. Hate is one of the few feelings he never indulges in because it's a total waste of time.

As for what will happen later? Well, consider that Raonar isn't actually judging or blaming Bhelen either.

And you should really lighten up, I never once actually insinuated anything about Loghain, but you also seem a bit too biased in his favor, and Bhelen's for that matter. Just because being murderous and ruthless works in order to achieve a so-called good objective (though the cost is hardly worthwhile since it usually ends up with the good guys dying) doesn't mean it's the only way, or even the best way for that matter.

People should try to go to the root of the problem and solve it, instead of trying to bypass it.

-Poisoning Eamon was not a way to solve a problem, it was just a way to avoid id;
-Leaving Cailan to die was also just a way to avoid the problem. If it were up to me, I would have drugged his meals or something to have him too ill to paticipate in the battle because dying with no heirs would definitely throw Ferelden into chaos. And by seeing that the battle was hopeless, Cailan would have become a bit more pragmatic(You can start to say he's an idiot, but you should remember that that royal guard from Return to Ostagar stated quite clearly that Cailan knew the odds and had taken measures to give the Grey Wardens a backup plan. Even though it involved Orlais, it was still a plan, so you can't really say Cailan was a hopeless idiot. The fact was that he wasn't. You could also say that doing that to Cailan was a big risk, but it would have been no greater than the risk to cause a Civil war by assuming regency. Potential civil war during the Blight Loaghin so stubbornly refused to aknowledge, despite the fact he KNEW the skirmishes were getting worse, is a very, very bad idea.).

-Not charging may have been the best tactical idea, but putting the blame on the wardens and a bounty on their head, for no apparent reason, was hardly justified (I'm not exactly looking for a debate on this mind you).

What I'm trying to say is that Loghain is terribly paranoid and he has the bad habit of avoiding problems instead of solving them. And, in the end, they just return to bite him in the ass.

EDIT

Oh, and I never said Alim cared so much about Cailan's life, but he does, a little, and he himself is a good guy... mostly. You'll understand when his background, and how he became a blood mage, is finally revealed (which should be in 2-3 chapters' time).

Modifié par Raonar, 05 septembre 2010 - 12:10 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Raonar doesn't necessariuly BLAME or believe Lghain betrayed EVERYONE, but some people he DID betray (Eamon for instance) and he definitely doesn't approve of just proclaiming the Wardens as enemies of the state just like that.

How is poisoning Eamon = to betraying him when Loghain was not in a Political Alliance with him, when it was Eamon who was working with Cailan in trying to arrange an Alliance with Orlais and when Loghain did not proclaim loyalty or friendship to Eamon? ( as far as we know ). If anything, the people who Loghain betrayed in game are Jowan and Anora.

And you should really lighten up, I never once actually insinuated anything about Loghain, but you also seem a bit too biased in his favor, and Bhelen's for that matter. Just because being murderous and ruthless works in order to achieve a so-called good objective (though the cost is hardly worthwhile since it usually ends up with the good guys dying) doesn't mean it's the only way, or even the best way for that matter.

People should try to go to the root of the problem and solve it, instead of trying to bypass i

I am of course biased for Bhelen and Loghain, but I should point out that I am ( was actually ) concerned at first that you would kill Bhelen in your story, though apparently this won't be the case.

And after 3 chapters with Loghain bashing at various degrees, don't you think one can be concerned that you will turn Loghain into a monster that you will only give mercy for his redemption?

Now regarding Loghain, I do not feel he made any bad choices and I quite agree with all that he did. Now I am sure a LOT of people would disagree with me ( even Loghain fans ) but hear me out here.

Poisoning Eamon wasn't something Loghain did to kill Eamon, it was something he did because ( as per what David Gaider says ) he believe he and Cailan would have a showdown, and for Loghain to have better at odds at removing Cailan as King ( the Landsmeet has the power to do this I believe ) he needed to remove Eamon who was Cailan's prime ally.

Regarding Cailan.and your solution to it. This is not reality, this is Fereldan and Cailan had half the senior enchanters of the Circle in his camp. Yes, Loghain did have a very potent poison, which he gave to Jowan and worked, but Jowan was caught.

Using poison carries risks. IF Wynne and the other mages heal then it is useless, and IF Cailan finds out then who do you think will be the prime suspect? Loghain. And if Loghain get's caught then he will be ( rightly so ) accused of High Treason against the Crown.

Now obviously there is the possibility that his act of poisoning Cailan might work, but there is also the possibility that he might be caught of doing it. Obviously he should have taken the risk and done it, but here is the thing that Gaider presented on the forums: Loghain did not believe the battle was lost before it even began.

Certainly he expected it to be harder and carrying more risks then the other 3, but he did not expect the massive Darkspawn numbers that came out of the forest ( if there is a mistake for Loghain, there is one here for underestimating the Darkspawn but then again no one actually expected those numbers from what Gaider told us ) that slaughtered the Royal Army, as such. While he did expect Cailan to be at risk, and heavy losses ( hence he argued for retreat unless I am mistaken and for Cailan to not participate ) he most likely did not see possibility of Cailan dying as high enough for him to risk poisoning Cailan.

Regarding the Blight. Think from his perspective. All he knows is that Duncan is claiming that a Blight is coming, but Duncan offers no proof just empty words and while he knows that each Blight was ended by a Grey Warden killing the Archdemon, but that by itself doesn't prove that a Grey Warden is need to kill an Archdemon and neither does it prove Duncan's claim about this being a Blight.

What he also knows is the Grey Wardens are coming from Orlais with an army at their backs. Now I am sure one can claim they are doing this to stop the Blight, but since he doesn't believe it is actually one ( nor do most humans in-game btw, though Zathrian and Bhelen along with some Dwarves in Orzammar ) he has no reason to think that Celene actually believes it is one either, since, let's be honest, evidence is scant and you DON'T send a sodding army of Four Legions ( or two dozen divisions as Riordan tells us ) based on scant evidence.

I think it is clear as day that Celene had other plans in Fereldans, and Loghain knows or suspects that Cailan was conversing with Celene. So he is suspicions of the Wardens and rightly so. What kind of neutrality can the Wardens claim when the Orlesian Warden is part of the Orlesian Royal Court and when the Wardens have more power in the Anderfels then the King? I think his reasoning for outlawing the Grey Wardens was just as much to get a scape goat for Ostagar as it was to legitimize his refusal of Orlesian aid. ( So there is obviously a reason for what he did towards the Wardens )

I am certain Loghain did what he did with an amount of Paranoia, but I would argue on the terribly paranoid point.

 Oh, and I never said Alim cared so much about Cailan's life, but he does, a little, and he himself is a good guy... mostly. You'll understand when his background, and how he became a blood mage, is finally revealed (which should be in 2-3 chapters' time).

I am certain you will disagree, but I do not believe in a such as a "good guy" existing in any kind of war, only those who kill more people or less people. But that's me.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 septembre 2010 - 01:21 .

[Raonar]

Hey, I know everyone has a point in a debate and can find a myriad of supporting arguments, but the fact remains that I don't approve of what Loghain did. I approve of his goal, but the means to achieve it were counterproductive. You'll forgive me if I don't indulge in a debate on this here though.

Anyway, my protagonist's view on the matter will be quite... sophisticated, and the 'punishment' (PLEASE don't jump to conclusions) he will come up with for Loghain will be quite unique.

You'll see what I mean when I eventually get to that part.

I am certain you will disagree, but I do not believe in a such as a
"good guy" existing in any kind of war, only those who kill more people
or less people. But that's me.

Sigh.

Fine, I'll try not to use that phrase just to avoid another semantic entanglement. Sheesh.

EDIT 2

Oh, and I'm pretty sure poisoning Eamon qualifies as a betrayal. They were supposed to be friends and, if anything, they were vassals of the same King.

Modifié par Raonar, 05 septembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[Costin_Razvan]

You said you had something unique in mind in Loghain, and I will trust your word until you either keep it or prove me otherwise.

Sigh.

Fine, I'll try not to use that phrase just to avoid another semantic entanglement. Sheesh.

Sorry....something that remains from the old Loghain arguments. Back then, if there was a point to be argued over, then we argued.

but the fact remains that I don't approve of what Loghain did. I approve of his goal, but the means to achieve it were counterproductive

I suppose that's the general view of people, namely since we find out that he is ultimately wrong, not by mistake but not having information on the Wardens. ( and seriously I didn't get what was the fuss with the Wardens in-game until the Final Battle )

One question remains: Who will do the US? My money is on Raonar....he justs LIKES to sacrifice himself. "laugh"

 Oh, and I'm pretty sure poisoning Eamon qualifies as a betrayal. They were supposed to be friends and, if anything, they were vassals of the same King.

I never got that idea in game. Certainly we hear Eamon speaking with respect about Loghain, but friendship would be a stretch.

And just because they are the vassals of the same King does not mean that one of the moving against the other = betrayal. Fereldan isn't an absolutist Monarchy, since the Landsmeet has the ultimate say if it comes to it.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 septembre 2010 - 01:46 .

[Raonar]

Political betrayal isn't the only type of betrayal

And about the US, I'll just say that EVERYONE that will still be a Grey Warden at the time will want to do it.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You said you had something unique in mind in Loghain, and I will trust your word until you either keep it or prove me otherwise.

My thanks.

Modifié par Raonar, 05 septembre 2010 - 02:14 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Political betrayal isn't the only type of betrayal



And about the US, I'll just say that EVERYONE that will still be a Grey Warden at the time will want to do it.

I know that of course, but it seems to me that Loghain was not in any way related to Eamon as a friend or otherwise save for an enemy.



I expected that about the US, but I wouldn't place much stock on anyone outwitting Raonar

[Raonar]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Political betrayal isn't the only type of betrayal

I expected that about the US, but I wouldn't place much stock on anyone outwitting Raonar

Well, I'll take that as an indication that I actually did manage to get him across as at least mildly intellectually apt.

Modifié par Raonar, 05 septembre 2010 - 02:33 .