Or manipulative as all hell.....though where are they going first? Circle, Redcliffe, Orzammar?
Dragon Age: The Crown of Thorns, Chapter 68 Up (January 2, 2013)
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Raonar
, juin 20 2010 08:39
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#202
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 03:33
Raonar
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That you will learn soon, the next chapter exactly. I believe I'll finally bring Raonar back into the story if I get things done at the pace I have planned.
Manipulative as all hell eh? I shudder to think of what he would do if he were a self-serving maniac (not alluding to anyone mind you).
Manipulative as all hell eh? I shudder to think of what he would do if he were a self-serving maniac (not alluding to anyone mind you).
Modifié par Raonar, 05 septembre 2010 - 03:35 .
#203
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 03:49
Costin_Razvan
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Manipulative as all hell eh? I shudder to think of what he would do if he were a self-serving maniac (not alluding to anyone mind you).
Meh...self-serving maniacs fail by default because they have no greater goal then themselves. I can help you with your plan for Lothering, though I should point out I find your plan for Ostagar quite flawed ( I can go in detail if you like )
P.S.
Starting on Strands of Fate Chapter Two atm....will be a LONG one and I doubt I will finish it today ( or if I will it will be too late in the evening ). I suspect you will be just as baffled as I was when I first read your plan for Trian ( or not ).
#204
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 04:01
Raonar
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Costin_Razvan wrote...
Meh...self-serving maniacs fail by default because they have no greater goal then themselves. I can help you with your plan for Lothering, though I should point out I find your plan for Ostagar quite flawed ( I can go in detail if you like )
P.S.
Starting on Strands of Fate Chapter Two atm....will be a LONG one and I doubt I will finish it today ( or if I will it will be too late in the evening ). I suspect you will be just as baffled as I was when I first read your plan for Trian ( or not ).
What plan for Ostagar?
And I'm assuming you're still baffled about Trian being alive, yes? A lot of people will be, trust me.
Modifié par Raonar, 05 septembre 2010 - 04:08 .
#205
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 04:12
Costin_Razvan
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I meant the battleplan for the defenders.
#206
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 04:25
Raonar
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Ah, I know. Not my brightest moment, I admit. That's why I'm going to pay a special eye to your fiction.
Feel free to tell me how badly my waves formation was though. I'll take a good bashing if it'll help me improve. (I already am aware that it wasn't especially bright, and that you were being nice when you said it was flawed).
So, bash away.
Feel free to tell me how badly my waves formation was though. I'll take a good bashing if it'll help me improve. (I already am aware that it wasn't especially bright, and that you were being nice when you said it was flawed).
So, bash away.
#207
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 04:59
Sarah1281
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Not for nothing but...why does the thread claim there are only fifteen chapters up when it's been updated?
#208
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 05:00
Raonar
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Ah,RIGHT! I forgot to update the first post!
#209
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 05:31
Costin_Razvan
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Someone actually asking me to be the jackass that I am? "chuckles."
On to the matter at hand. The idea isn't that bad actually, against a human army ( remember this point as I will get back to it latter ). Using your wave idea an enemy army would mash together on the first wave, break through eventually, mash itself together on the second wave then through brute strength break it...rise and repeat.
The problem is that having so many people pushing and shoving through a funnel which Ostagar and uphill and also dealing with enemy archers and mages is really something that would easily tire an army out. Exhaustion leads to loss of morale and loss of morale leads to retreat. The Principle of using a funnel is how the Greeks held Thermopylae for almost three days. ( and the enemy even wasn't fighting uphill or dealing with so many archers there )
Depending on enemy numbers you might not even need a flank attack to win, though it would be preferable.
However, the Darkspawn are not humans. Trying to use tactics that work for humans against them is really not going to work. Certainly Loghain does not trust a single word the Wardens say, but I think he would have learned from the three battles which he had fought already.
First off: Morale. The Darkspawn don't have any. They will not flee unless the Archdemon is killed or the command is given, and since the Archdemon wants to wear the enemy army as much as it can then it could care less about casualties. That's the bigger issue. The other being: Exhaustion.
Do Darkspawn suffer from it? If I recall correctly they do not sleep or eat ( based on Gaider's comments ) If they do not, then this is a further problem for using a wave formation.
Thus the advantage of your wave formation is negated by the Darkspawn's lack of need for morale and their supposed lack of getting tired. The fact that Cailan's troops are holding the line and inflicting some casualties doesn't help Loghain in his flank attack, in fact even if the Darkspawn had not so massively outnumbered the Fereledans then Loghain would still had suffered massive casualties when he charged in such a situation.
So...the idea of using waves isn't that unsound by itself, but your execution is poor: No stakes, waste of mabari, waste of the first wave in a charge, use of shield wall though, but forgetting about the momentum of the Darkspawn.
Stakes can break a charge, not completely no, but it will take away much of it's momentum. Now yes, you using that first line of soldiers to charge into the horde was not a bad idea....but I think you underestimate the pure force of the Darkspawn charge.
In reality the soldiers might have killed a few Darkspawn, but since they only have on row against a PURE FIST of Darkspawn muscles then there was only one outcome for them: Annihilation
When those Darkspawn smash into those soldiers.....it would feel like a TANK was punching into your face at over 100 kmph, that's the kind of force we are talking about.
Certainly it would have destroyed most of their momentum with that charge, especially since the Darkspawn are moving uphill, but that's something that stakes+mabari should have been used for. Instead you wasted your mabari for next to nothing. Because by the time they kill the hounds, they are still able to pick up their momentum again.
My ideal battle plan would be the following.
Plant Stakes in front of the entire army.
Crossbowmen behind the Stakes. Archers behind Crossbows, hounds behind them both. Pikemen behind the hounds, and just behind the Pikes ( as in hugging them from behind ), Shield Wall formation. Ash Warriors, Great Swords, Axes, Mauls on the flanks. Mages used as snipers for Ogres and Darkspawn Casters, not using their mana for aoe spells. ( Which as impressive as they sound aren't going to change that much in the larger scheme )
Dig a pit, cover it and fill it with stakes just a few dozen feet before the stakes you planted in front of your army.
Darkspawn Charge, fire Arrows and Crossbows when they are in range.
Wait for them to reach the pit.
After they pass it, retreat all ranged troops and launch hounds just as they are about to reach your planted stakes.
Infantry to advanced in tight formation behind Hounds. But a few few feet beyond the stakes ( Hounds are supposed to be fighting in the space between your stakes )
Let the Darkspawn launch themselves like fools at your Pikes and take out Ogres and Mages as a priority.
Signal for Flank attacks.
?
Win.
On to the matter at hand. The idea isn't that bad actually, against a human army ( remember this point as I will get back to it latter ). Using your wave idea an enemy army would mash together on the first wave, break through eventually, mash itself together on the second wave then through brute strength break it...rise and repeat.
The problem is that having so many people pushing and shoving through a funnel which Ostagar and uphill and also dealing with enemy archers and mages is really something that would easily tire an army out. Exhaustion leads to loss of morale and loss of morale leads to retreat. The Principle of using a funnel is how the Greeks held Thermopylae for almost three days. ( and the enemy even wasn't fighting uphill or dealing with so many archers there )
Depending on enemy numbers you might not even need a flank attack to win, though it would be preferable.
However, the Darkspawn are not humans. Trying to use tactics that work for humans against them is really not going to work. Certainly Loghain does not trust a single word the Wardens say, but I think he would have learned from the three battles which he had fought already.
First off: Morale. The Darkspawn don't have any. They will not flee unless the Archdemon is killed or the command is given, and since the Archdemon wants to wear the enemy army as much as it can then it could care less about casualties. That's the bigger issue. The other being: Exhaustion.
Do Darkspawn suffer from it? If I recall correctly they do not sleep or eat ( based on Gaider's comments ) If they do not, then this is a further problem for using a wave formation.
Thus the advantage of your wave formation is negated by the Darkspawn's lack of need for morale and their supposed lack of getting tired. The fact that Cailan's troops are holding the line and inflicting some casualties doesn't help Loghain in his flank attack, in fact even if the Darkspawn had not so massively outnumbered the Fereledans then Loghain would still had suffered massive casualties when he charged in such a situation.
So...the idea of using waves isn't that unsound by itself, but your execution is poor: No stakes, waste of mabari, waste of the first wave in a charge, use of shield wall though, but forgetting about the momentum of the Darkspawn.
Stakes can break a charge, not completely no, but it will take away much of it's momentum. Now yes, you using that first line of soldiers to charge into the horde was not a bad idea....but I think you underestimate the pure force of the Darkspawn charge.
In reality the soldiers might have killed a few Darkspawn, but since they only have on row against a PURE FIST of Darkspawn muscles then there was only one outcome for them: Annihilation
When those Darkspawn smash into those soldiers.....it would feel like a TANK was punching into your face at over 100 kmph, that's the kind of force we are talking about.
Certainly it would have destroyed most of their momentum with that charge, especially since the Darkspawn are moving uphill, but that's something that stakes+mabari should have been used for. Instead you wasted your mabari for next to nothing. Because by the time they kill the hounds, they are still able to pick up their momentum again.
My ideal battle plan would be the following.
Plant Stakes in front of the entire army.
Crossbowmen behind the Stakes. Archers behind Crossbows, hounds behind them both. Pikemen behind the hounds, and just behind the Pikes ( as in hugging them from behind ), Shield Wall formation. Ash Warriors, Great Swords, Axes, Mauls on the flanks. Mages used as snipers for Ogres and Darkspawn Casters, not using their mana for aoe spells. ( Which as impressive as they sound aren't going to change that much in the larger scheme )
Dig a pit, cover it and fill it with stakes just a few dozen feet before the stakes you planted in front of your army.
Darkspawn Charge, fire Arrows and Crossbows when they are in range.
Wait for them to reach the pit.
After they pass it, retreat all ranged troops and launch hounds just as they are about to reach your planted stakes.
Infantry to advanced in tight formation behind Hounds. But a few few feet beyond the stakes ( Hounds are supposed to be fighting in the space between your stakes )
Let the Darkspawn launch themselves like fools at your Pikes and take out Ogres and Mages as a priority.
Signal for Flank attacks.
?
Win.
Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 septembre 2010 - 05:37 .
#210
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 06:01
Raonar
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Costin_Razvan wrote...
Someone actually asking me to be the jackass that I am? "chuckles."
On to the matter at hand. The idea isn't that bad actually, against a human army ( remember this point as I will get back to it latter ). Using your wave idea an enemy army would mash together on the first wave, break through eventually, mash itself together on the second wave then through brute strength break it...rise and repeat.
The problem is that having so many people pushing and shoving through a funnel which Ostagar and uphill and also dealing with enemy archers and mages is really something that would easily tire an army out. Exhaustion leads to loss of morale and loss of morale leads to retreat. The Principle of using a funnel is how the Greeks held Thermopylae for almost three days. ( and the enemy even wasn't fighting uphill or dealing with so many archers there )
Depending on enemy numbers you might not even need a flank attack to win, though it would be preferable.
However, the Darkspawn are not humans. Trying to use tactics that work for humans against them is really not going to work. Certainly Loghain does not trust a single word the Wardens say, but I think he would have learned from the three battles which he had fought already.
First off: Morale. The Darkspawn don't have any. They will not flee unless the Archdemon is killed or the command is given, and since the Archdemon wants to wear the enemy army as much as it can then it could care less about casualties. That's the bigger issue. The other being: Exhaustion.
Do Darkspawn suffer from it? If I recall correctly they do not sleep or eat ( based on Gaider's comments ) If they do not, then this is a further problem for using a wave formation.
Thus the advantage of your wave formation is negated by the Darkspawn's lack of need for morale and their supposed lack of getting tired. The fact that Cailan's troops are holding the line and inflicting some casualties doesn't help Loghain in his flank attack, in fact even if the Darkspawn had not so massively outnumbered the Fereledans then Loghain would still had suffered massive casualties when he charged in such a situation.
So...the idea of using waves isn't that unsound by itself, but your execution is poor: No stakes, waste of mabari, waste of the first wave in a charge, use of shield wall though, but forgetting about the momentum of the Darkspawn.
Stakes can break a charge, not completely no, but it will take away much of it's momentum. Now yes, you using that first line of soldiers to charge into the horde was not a bad idea....but I think you underestimate the pure force of the Darkspawn charge.
In reality the soldiers might have killed a few Darkspawn, but since they only have on row against a PURE FIST of Darkspawn muscles then there was only one outcome for them: Annihilation
When those Darkspawn smash into those soldiers.....it would feel like a TANK was punching into your face at over 100 kmph, that's the kind of force we are talking about.
Certainly it would have destroyed most of their momentum with that charge, especially since the Darkspawn are moving uphill, but that's something that stakes+mabari should have been used for. Instead you wasted your mabari for next to nothing. Because by the time they kill the hounds, they are still able to pick up their momentum again.
My ideal battle plan would be the following.
Plant Stakes in front of the entire army.
Crossbowmen behind the Stakes. Archers behind Crossbows, hounds behind them both. Pikemen behind the hounds, and just behind the Pikes ( as in hugging them from behind ), Shield Wall formation. Ash Warriors, Great Swords, Axes, Mauls on the flanks. Mages used as snipers for Ogres and Darkspawn Casters, not using their mana for aoe spells. ( Which as impressive as they sound aren't going to change that much in the larger scheme )
Dig a pit, cover it and fill it with stakes just a few dozen feet before the stakes you planted in front of your army.
Darkspawn Charge, fire Arrows and Crossbows when they are in range.
Wait for them to reach the pit.
After they pass it, retreat all ranged troops and launch hounds just as they are about to reach your planted stakes.
Infantry to advanced in tight formation behind Hounds. But a few few feet beyond the stakes ( Hounds are supposed to be fighting in the space between your stakes )
Let the Darkspawn launch themselves like fools at your Pikes and take out Ogres and Mages as a priority.
Signal for Flank attacks.
?
Win.
Too bad the tactic used in the game was even worse than mine...
Or am I reading that wrong as well?
EDIT
I'll definitely have to ask you to help me make a Total War-style outline of the Battle of Denerim when I FINALLY get to that part.
Modifié par Raonar, 05 septembre 2010 - 06:03 .
#211
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 06:22
Costin_Razvan
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Too bad the tactic used in the game was even worse than mine...
Or am I reading that wrong as well?
You ain't.
The tactic in game is SO bad that if I had been given the option to join the Horde right there and then, I would have without any sort hesitation.
That was my reaction. People ask me why I hate Cailan: To which I would answer:
"ecause any idiot that big enough to CHARGE headlong into an enemy army that outnumbers him grealy with his full force is complete failure of humanity. I ain't talking here of some complicated battle tactics, but sodding COMMON sense.
Shows how much Bioware knows about Medieval Tactics...do they even get documented BEYOND a Song of Ice and Fire?
I'll definitely have to ask you to help me make a Total War-style outline of the Battle of Denerim when I FINALLY get to that part.
Give me what armies you are using and if you plan on going on the exact same battle the game gives you or do you want to change the conditions before the battle.
I could write the whole plan, easily in fact.
Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 septembre 2010 - 06:25 .
#212
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 06:25
Raonar
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Well, that would be assuming it WAS Cailan's tactic and not Loghain's or someone else's. Still, you can't really use that fight as part of your reasoning on whether Cailan was a fool or not. Battle tactics aren't exactly the forte of DA:O.
Or you could use it as a reason I suppose. Meh.
To each his own.
EDIT
Oh yeah, and about me being baffled.
Let's see... Unless Leonidas is watching a battle taking place in Northrend and you plan on making Arthas an enemy of Morgoth... Not sure how baffled I'll be.
Or you could use it as a reason I suppose. Meh.
To each his own.EDIT
Oh yeah, and about me being baffled.
Let's see... Unless Leonidas is watching a battle taking place in Northrend and you plan on making Arthas an enemy of Morgoth... Not sure how baffled I'll be.
Modifié par Raonar, 05 septembre 2010 - 06:31 .
#213
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 06:32
Costin_Razvan
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Let's see... Unless Leonidas is watching a battle taking place in Northrend and you plan on making Arthas an enemy of Morgoth... Not sure how baffled I'll be.
My friend, you don't know how right you are.
But let's just say it won't be in the way you expect.
#214
Posté 05 septembre 2010 - 06:33
Raonar
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Oh, I make it a point not to expect anything, only consider the possibilities.
#215
Posté 06 septembre 2010 - 06:57
Costin_Razvan
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Well, apparently Cailan was actually planning on abandoning Anora to marry Celene. Just a point Gaider confirmed at Pax.
#216
Posté 06 septembre 2010 - 07:32
Raonar
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Hmm, I had read something about this recently on these forums... But wasn't it already obvious from the letters from RtO?
#217
Posté 06 septembre 2010 - 07:58
Costin_Razvan
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It was, though of course Loghain haters and Calian fans disagreed on it.
Nail in the coffin for them. Though I am curios if you will include RtO or not in your story.
Nail in the coffin for them. Though I am curios if you will include RtO or not in your story.
#218
Posté 06 septembre 2010 - 08:00
Raonar
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Well, you'll just have to wait and see now won't you? (Read: like... DUH! Of course i will)
(Read: like... DUH! Of course i will)
Modifié par Raonar, 06 septembre 2010 - 08:16 .
#219
Posté 06 septembre 2010 - 09:01
Costin_Razvan
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I see....damned questions! Need some answers too you know
I am still pondering how you will deal with Orzammar for instance that will involve Bhelen surviving and not getting imprisoned exiled ( or will he? )
I am still pondering how you will deal with Orzammar for instance that will involve Bhelen surviving and not getting imprisoned exiled ( or will he? )
#220
Posté 06 septembre 2010 - 09:26
Raonar
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I already gave hints and even said Raonar wouldn't kill him. What more do you want? I am NOT saying anything more ahead of time about that.
So... sorry to burst your bubble
Let me just say it will not be something people will expect to happen. I've been going over and over the whole Orzammar section for months. So, just wait for it
So... sorry to burst your bubble
Let me just say it will not be something people will expect to happen. I've been going over and over the whole Orzammar section for months. So, just wait for it
Modifié par Raonar, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:28 .
#221
Posté 06 septembre 2010 - 09:33
Costin_Razvan
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I know you will...I am just wondering how exactly you will pull it off... It will probably shock me just as much as your intro did.
You should know by now that I have zero patience, so it's agravating ( though the uncertainity of your FF is what I LOVE about it )
Though I assume based on your sig that Raonar is indeed coming back in the next chapter.
You should know by now that I have zero patience, so it's agravating ( though the uncertainity of your FF is what I LOVE about it )
Though I assume based on your sig that Raonar is indeed coming back in the next chapter.
Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:40 .
#222
Posté 06 septembre 2010 - 10:18
Raonar
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Ah, that's a quote from chapter 11
But yes, I intend to finally bring him back . After that, I'll retcon his escape and what happened in the month he was separated from the others. I'll probably start on writing it tonight.
But yes, I intend to finally bring him back . After that, I'll retcon his escape and what happened in the month he was separated from the others. I'll probably start on writing it tonight.
#223
Posté 06 septembre 2010 - 02:36
Sarah1281
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That depends. Personally, I didn't want to believe that Ferelden's King - no matter how many other questionable decisions he made - would really think that that was a good plan when the players who barely know anything about Orlais can see what a stupid plan that is and the only even remotely positive thing anyone could find about the plan was Wynne's 'But...but...peace!' which, frankly, wasn't good enough.Raonar wrote...
Hmm, I had read something about this recently on these forums... But wasn't it already obvious from the letters from RtO?
#224
Posté 06 septembre 2010 - 05:25
Raonar
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Oh, and since you stopped by anyway Sarah, let me just say that you were merciless in your Mary Sue Cousland fic. I STILL burst into laughter when I think about it.
EDIT
I finally realized what that reviewer meant by Magnificent Bastard, It's a type of character that is ingenious but a sort of bad guy overall. My protagonist I want to make more of a Guile Hero. I guess stabbing Trian really threw people off, though I haven't exactly given the exact reason for it yet. Ah well, people will just have to wait unti I do.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'll have Raonar established as a Guile Hero by the time the next 3 chapters are over.
EDIT
I finally realized what that reviewer meant by Magnificent Bastard, It's a type of character that is ingenious but a sort of bad guy overall. My protagonist I want to make more of a Guile Hero. I guess stabbing Trian really threw people off, though I haven't exactly given the exact reason for it yet. Ah well, people will just have to wait unti I do.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'll have Raonar established as a Guile Hero by the time the next 3 chapters are over.
Modifié par Raonar, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:05 .
#225
Posté 13 septembre 2010 - 12:09
Raonar
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Well, I WAS going to post this on Thursday, but real life intervened.
Chapter 17: Foreshadowing is up on FF.net.
Chapter 17: Foreshadowing is up on FF.net.
Modifié par Raonar, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:09 .
