27 réponses à ce sujet

[dumpstercake]

I haven't played for a while and am curious to know if it is still a total waste.

[TBastian]

http://social.biowar...6/index/2878428

I would normally recommend doing a search yourself, but it seems this site's search function is severely lacking. A sort by time function would really help.

Modifié par TBastian, 20 juin 2010 - 07:49 .

[Last Darkness]

No if you heavily invest into it, yes if you want to do anything besides fight in shapeshifted form.

Theres a Shapeshifter build thats pretty allright I wanna try sometime. Heres a link
db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps3/file/dragon_age_origins_shapeshifter.txt

[Last Darkness]

Forgot to add

Damage from Spider and Bear is based on your Str, Swarm is on Spellpower.
Its far better to boost your physical abilities yourself then rely on spellpower, since @70 spell power you will only get Str, Dex and con at around 30.

Defensive runes in gear are counted while shapeshifted but offensive ones are not.
If you use a Staff you will have a 100% Chance to Hit and a good Armor Penetration Value but a 0% chance to score criticals. If you use a Weapon it will be normal chance to hit and you can score crits.
The only effects that carry over from weapons are armor penetration and stats or defensive runes.
The damage a weapon does and its speed seems to have no effect when shapeshifted.
Because you will have a lower magic stat it is highly suggested to stay away from the entropy spell line because of the restance checks enemies will pass alot.

I highly Suggest getting the Runes/Glyphs line of Spells and some heavy focus into the spirit tree.
I wanna try a Shapeshifter/Blood Mage NecroShifter kind of idea. Useing things like Advanced renaimation(You have a pet) blood control and Virulent walking bomb while I rush into melee as a Bearskarn.

[dumpstercake]

thanks, I actually did try a search but didn't get anything that really answered my question.

[TBastian]

A weapon's base damage (except staff) is carried over when Shapeshfting. You won't see it in the character screen, but it's there. The weapon's damage modifier is carried over too. Shapeshifting cancels all sustaineds, including Animate Dead.

There is no such thing as "heavy" Shapeshifting. There is a strength-based Shapeshifter build, and although it works pretty well it's very unconventional. A specialization is supposed to add something to a class. AW gives you the option to sacrifice magic for might, SH gives you great support skills and BM gives you the option to sacrifice health for power. The Shapeshifter is supposed to support your spellcasting, giving you versatility. Doing it the other way round (focusing on shifting and relying on your spells only for support) is a recipe for disaster. Even the str Shapeshifter build no longer becomes viable in Awakenings.

The forms are actually all spellpower dependent. Their stats are based on your spellpower, and at high spellpower levels both Spider and Bear can reach very high dex and con. Their str values are low-mediocre, but as the game progresses you should be relying less on their normal attacks on more on their skills like Overwhelm, their immunities, and your spells. The Swarm becomes ridiculously powerful in Awakenings, especially if you get Battlemage as a third spec.

Most of the info you need should already be on the link I posted earlier.

Modifié par TBastian, 20 juin 2010 - 10:58 .

[Last Darkness]

Better Guide
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/739982

[Sammy0721]

Here are some hints about the build.

1. Strength only changes damage (magic does not help with damage as SS)

2. You never miss with the staff

3. Overwhelm is really useful with a lot of strength against bosses like Howe, Branka

4. You have the highest armor penetration of any character in the game

5. You always lose your shape when you enter dialogue

6. You lose your sustains when you change form and can't use potions as an animal

7. A hybrid build and the more you throw into strength, the better the build

[TBastian]

A few corrections.
1) No. Your form's strength, dexterity and constitution are determined by your spellpower, ie magic stat. Your original stats are only used, if higher.
3) No. Overwhelm drops your damage to around 60-70% per hit, decreasing the difference in Overwhelm damage between the caster shapeshifter and the strength shapeshifter. A good caster shapeshifter (one with almost all points in magic) can reach very good Overwhelm damage (around 300 in Origins, 600 in Awakenings), and has deadly spells to go with it. Its Overwhelm damage is around the equivalent of that of a str build which went 1 str, 1 magic.
What really makes their Overwhelm more or less equal though is that both have the same disable time. Reason Overwhelm is such a powerful skill is because it's a surefire disable + damage move, and the total damage the target receives from a single Overwhelm is actually much higher thanks to your party members.
Enemies immune to Overwhelm go down via Overwhelm spamming.
5) Irrelevant, unless you're a str build. Also add Dispel Magic (including Templar version) cancels shifting.
7) No. And the strength shapeshifter loses all viability in Awakenings, sadly.

Modifié par TBastian, 21 juin 2010 - 06:07 .

[Last Darkness]

TBastian wrote...

A few corrections.
1) No. Your form's strength, dexterity and constitution are determined by your spellpower, ie magic stat. Your original stats are only used, if higher.
3) No. Overwhelm drops your damage to around 60-70% per hit, decreasing the difference in Overwhelm damage between the caster shapeshifter and the strength shapeshifter. A good caster shapeshifter (one with almost all points in magic) can reach very good Overwhelm damage (around 300 in Origins, 600 in Awakenings), and has deadly spells to go with it. Its Overwhelm damage is around the equivalent of that of a str build which went 1 str, 1 magic.
What really makes their Overwhelm more or less equal though is that both have the same disable time. Reason Overwhelm is such a powerful skill is because it's a surefire disable + damage move, and the total damage the target receives from a single Overwhelm is actually much higher thanks to your party members.
Enemies immune to Overwhelm go down via Overwhelm spamming.
5) Irrelevant, unless you're a str build. Also add Dispel Magic (including Templar version) cancels shifting.
7) No. And the strength shapeshifter loses all viability in Awakenings, sadly.

As I understand in point 1 you make that you do get bonuses based on spellpower its far easier to boost those stats yourself so you ensure very high numbers. So to get really good physical stats you would need extremly high spellpower but does it have a cap? Cause I can definetly see the Shapeshifter/Arcane Warrior hybrid working well if your maxing for spellpower and arcane warrior will let you equip better weapons/armor without spending points on Str.
It can really break down to do you wanna cast spells AND shapeshift or just stay in shapeshifted form all the time. Alot of people who ask about SS just wanna stay shapeshifted all the time.

Reguardless I really hope for improvments in The next expansion or dragon age 2.

[TBastian]

It's the people who are forcing the SS to stay shapeshifted all the time who are failing the specialization, not the other way round. Can you play the game with only Spirit Healer talents? With only Blood Mage talents? Hell even an Arcane Warrior would not be stupid enough to go waltzing around without his sustained spells.

No cap. Boosting spellpower gives far better returns than boosting any other stat, unless you want to rely on your forms exclusively. See previous paragraph.
The dex/con increase due to spellpower is significant, but the str increase is mediocre. This should not be a problem though. At early game the spider's attack speed + a two handed weapon basically makes it a two-hander that attacks as fast as a dual-wielder, and it has other skills besides. The Bear can reach 30 armor easy with the right setup by Lothering. In late game your spells should be deadly enough that if anything survives, then you only need your forms' special skills to finish them off. Bear also becomes powerful enough to be a decent melee, a serious DPSer with Overwhelm spam.

Shapeshifter/AW is suboptimal. None of the AW sustaineds are carried over when Shapeshifting. Check the difference in damage between a tier 1 weapon and tier 7 weapon. You'll see that it's only around 7 points. Since the forms ignore almost all offense mods, taking AW just so you can increase your damage by 7 points is not a good idea. You don't need heavy armor. Some of the best def/dodge and resistance gear in the game are mage/universal gear, and these are optimized by the forms' bonuses. Each form grants particular bonuses and immunities: spider has very high dex, bear gives +10 armor, the swarm has 40% displacement. Spider and Bear are immune to knockdown but not knockback. Swarm is immune to both, and traps.

Casting spells and shapeshifting is what a Shapeshifter does, otherwise the developers would have made the forms much more powerful. They have not, and they've had months to do something about it. Ask them about it, and you will always get the same answer: "it is working as intended,"
This means either a) the developers don't know what they're doing or the players don't know what they're doing. Since a Shapeshifter, when played correctly, is as overpowered as anything else you consider OP in DA, then I'm inclined to think .

Once you learn to accept that a Shapeshifter is basically Dragon Age's equivalent of a D&D Druid (everyone who has ever played one in other Bioware games will instantly note the striking similarities between them, from the way weapons work when shifted to nuking and general gameplay) then everything else will follow.

Modifié par TBastian, 21 juin 2010 - 04:45 .

[dumpstercake]

The reason I asked was because I tried to make use of morrigan's shapeshifting abilities when I played through a while back and found that she was more useful just sitting in caster form than attempting to use any of the abilities given by her shifts.

[Stormbringer3]

As a Shapeshifter, if you don't want to take Blood Mage, what is the next best choice?

[old book]

SS/AW is pretty solid. Take only Combat Magic so as to have access to better weapons & armor. Many defensive bonuses will carry over to your forms. You'll be a caster most of the time, then switch when it's time to clean up single targets or when all your good spells are on recharge.



SS/SH is Ok, but there's not much synergy there. SS/BM seems kind of pointless to me, as a BM never has real Mana problems, but could still use the forms for their value in attacking single targets.

[DWSmiley]

TBastian wrote...

The Bear can reach 30 armor easy with the right setup by Lothering.

Wow, I would not have guessed that.   Can you give an example, TBastian?

[TBastian]

The reason I asked was because I tried to make use of morrigan's shapeshifting abilities when I played through a while back and found that she was more useful just sitting in caster form than attempting to use any of the abilities given by her shifts.

That depends on her role. If your party needs constant baby-sitting and Morrigan is your only mage, then its understandable you'd want her to stay in human form. Unless you give her a spell tomes, then she also lacks the "oomph" a PC Shapeshifter would have from the onset.

As a Shapeshifter, if you don't want to take Blood Mage, what is the next best choice?

Spirit Healer.

SS/AW is pretty solid. Take only Combat Magic so as to have access to better weapons & armor. Many defensive bonuses will carry over to your forms. You'll be a caster most of the time, then switch when it's time to clean up single targets or when all your good spells are on recharge.

The difference between a tier 1 weapon and a tier 7 weapon is only around 7 points of damage, or at max 12 points, given a two-handed weapon with great str modifier. The forms ignore all other offensive mods. I don't think a 7 point damage boost justifies taking a new class. Some of the most powerful +def/+dodge/spell resistance items in DA are mage gear.The only advantages -really good- warrior armors offer you is low fatigue (oh wait... robes have this too) and higher armor (which def/dodge mage gear make up for). Mage gear with dodge usually come with spell resistance, and +def synergizes with the forms' high dexterity. The bear's doesn't get a bonus to def from dex, but it comes with a +10 armor bonus.
If you've been using an SS/AW with only combat magic, then consider this: you've basically just been using a pure SS with high armor. It's good to know that you've been getting good results. Now just swap out those heavy armors for good defensive mage gear and get yourself Stoneskin and Arcane Armor. Take a new second specialization, and you're all set. I'm quite sure you'll enjoy the results.

SS/SH is Ok, but there's not much synergy there.

On the surface, it seems there isn't. But in practice both specs are a match made in heaven. You see, because of its nigh-total dependence on spellpower the Shapeshifter makes an ideal nuker. If you will, try making a character with all the primal spells and give him Shapeshifter/Spirit Healer. As you may know, friendly fire is inevitable with a nuker character. Group Heal helps with damage control.
Now, a nuker is bound to attract heavy aggro. When that happens you'll want to shapeshift, but for all we know you're currently in the battle with Ser Cauthrien and she's swinging her 200 per hit sword attack on you. Thanks to Life Ward, you'll shrug off most of that attack and when you finish casting you can proceed to Overwhelm her without hassle.
If your allies need Group Heal and you're shifted, you can simply shift back (shifting to human form is instant - not "takes 1 second" but instant - you can even do this while the game is paused) and then use Group Heal. No biggie.
Finally a well built Shapeshifter (ironically access to all primal spells also gives you Rock Armor and the Arcane line is a must for every shifter, with Spell Mastery) is a very tough mage by nature. You have your spells, you have your gear (defensive, to optimize shifting) and you have your forms. What better character to carry around Revive? This toughness also has an indirect effect on your nuking. A Shapeshifter is free to navigate the frontlines where the best nuke combo, Fireball + the three cone spells, is optimized. You'll likely wipe out all white named enemy mobs with that combo, leaving you free to Mana Clash mages and promptly Overwhelm the boss. If anything goes wrong, shift to Flying Swarm.

Wow, I would not have guessed that. Can you give an example, TBastian?

The Bear simply grants a +10 bonus to armor. All you need to do is reach 20 armor (18 armor, shifter spec gives you +2). You can do this with the bandit lord armor you get in Lothering and accessories. You'll need 20 strength, but you can reach this with 16 str + bonuses from other sources. There is a variation of the Shapeshifter build, the semi-pure magic build. You see in Origins something like 10 points of damage is significant in early game (this is long before you can take a second spec, btw) and when it's the spider form that gets that +10 damage boost you're looking at what is basically a two-hander warrior that attacks as fast as a dual wielder. It's nice to nuke everything to critical and then shift to a form that can outdamage even your warriors. Your warriors will catch up and finally outdamage you by midgame, but by that time your magic score should be very high...
The semi-pure magic build shoots for 20 total str (including the +4 bonus from the Circle of Magi quest) before going pure magic. In doing so she has a better early-mid game, thanks to a better weapon selection. The fact that she can use the best leather armors and a few medium armors is an unexpected but very useful side effect. 6 points in strength (for an elf) is only like 2 more damage/healing points. Quite negligible. You can respec back to being a pure magic Shapeshifter in Awakenings.

Modifié par TBastian, 21 juin 2010 - 07:51 .

[old book]

SS/AW is pretty solid. Take only Combat Magic so as to have access to better weapons & armor. Many defensive bonuses will carry over to your forms. You'll be a caster most of the time, then switch when it's time to clean up single targets or when all your good spells are on recharge.

The difference between a tier 1 weapon and a tier 7 weapon is only around 7 points of damage, or at max 12 points, given a two-handed weapon with great str modifier. The forms ignore all other offensive mods. I don't think a 7 point damage boost justifies taking a new class. Some of the most powerful +def/+dodge/spell resistance items in DA are mage gear.The only advantages -really good- warrior armors offer you is low fatigue (oh wait... robes have this too) and higher armor (which def/dodge mage gear make up for). Mage gear with dodge usually come with spell resistance, and +def synergizes with the forms' high dexterity. The bear's doesn't get a bonus to def from dex, but it comes with a +10 armor bonus.
If you've been using an SS/AW with only combat magic, then consider this: you've basically just been using a pure SS with high armor. It's good to know that you've been getting good results. Now just swap out those heavy armors for good defensive mage gear and get yourself Stoneskin and Arcane Armor. Take a new second specialization, and you're all set.

12 points is 12 points, and the better helms, gauntlets, and other armor pieces are useful both when casting and when shifed. The extra Mana/Fatigue items are particularly handy, letting you cast more before needing to shift. You can always swap them out for extra DEF items while the game is paused, just before shifting. By taking only one of the AW spells, you have 3 more spell slots for nuking or general use, and your SS forms are there when you're low on mana or want to switch to melee.

Note that I'm not denigrating your builds; I'm pointing out that the AW/SS is a very viable nuker and general purpose mage with access to almost all the best equipment. The synergy is there.

[TBastian]

Of course you aren't. I'm simply trying to point out that with that specialization point you could have taken Spirit Healer, and I'm suggesting you try out a Shapeshifter/x with good mage gear (here's a list: Reaper's Vestments, First Enchanter's Cowl, Imperial Weavers, Spellward, Lifegiver). I'm sure you should have no problem diging out an older save and testing these out. Tell me what you think after. If these items are nowhere near as effective as your AW gear, I'll not push the matter further.

Modifié par TBastian, 21 juin 2010 - 08:36 .

[dumpstercake]

thanks again, i have to restart the game anyway because I had to reformat my hard drive. i'm bookmarking this discussion.

[TBastian]

Btw, you normally won't get bear until you gain a level after Lothering in the original game.
Anyway here's run-up again of a working shifter build in case anyone wants to try it:

Stats:
-16 str (20 total with +4 from tower) then everything else in magic. Respec to pure magic in Awakenings, if you wish.
Spells:
-All Primal Spells, Arcane line, Spell Shield->Dispel Magic, Mind Blast->Force Field, Heal, Heroic Offense. I'd suggest rushing to Fireball first and then getting Arcane Armor and Rock Armor. Then complete the 3 cone spells (get Cone of Cold and Shock) or Heal and Force Field. Whatever follows is up to you. Sometimes I take Dispel Magic early since it removes debuffs like Crushing Prison (you'll want this if you do DLC's early like me). It also removes sustaineds (Blood Magic? Bye. Shimmering Shield? Whatever. Regenerate? Stop right there). It also removes hexes, Weakness, Force Field, and the freezing from Cone of Cold/burn effect from Fireball :innocent:.
If you can't live without Mana Clash feel free to replace Dispel magic, one or two primal spells and Cleansing Aura with it. You can finish getting all of these in Awakenings, + the second Arcane line and all talents from Battlemage. 5 spell tomes are included in this build btw (2 from Bodahn, 1 from the Circle of Magi, 1 from Denerim and I threatened the Desire Demon to give me one). Get rid of Heroic Offense in Awakenings.
Items:
-Early: Chasind Robes, Thane Helm, Enchanter's Boots and other +def gear. With Arcane Armor you should get around 60-70 def with these, Rock Armor is icing. Spell Shield keeps you from being Crushing Prison-ed yourself, activate in the presence of mages. Quite ideal for a nuker who likes staying upfront. Keep upgrading to better +def gear until you complete Reaper's Vestments, First Enchanter's Cowl, Imperial Weavers, Spellward, for 40% total dodge. With Key to the City you should also end up with around 54% spell resistance. Lifegiver completes the set, giving you Con and Regeneration.
-Any decent staff like Oak Branch -> Staff of the Magister Lord ->Staff of the Lost/Spellfury
-Secondary: Any weapon with good -base- damage and a good damage modifier. Switch to this before shifting. Set your AI to "Ranged", so your character doesn't switch to a melee weapon. There is a bug that causes the AI your forms to switch weapon even while shifted, so don't unselect your character unless the game is paused. Turning off AI completely takes care of this though, and since you'll be doing most of the nuking and support you can just leave your allies to fend for themselves. In any case you won't want to use the AI, with all your nukes it will likely get you killed.
-Gloves: Whichever you want.
Second Spec: 
-Spirit Healer. Get all talents, prioritize Group Heal. Battlemage. Get all talents.
Misc Tips/Trivia:
-As soon as you get Overwhelm, find something immune to it (most difficult bosses are) and start using it repeatedly. Try waiting about a second before each use. Enjoy.
-The quartermaster in Ostagar sells tier 1 two handed weapons. You can also just use Ser Jory's Balanced Greatsword (no str requirements).
-Once you get Staff of the Lost/Spellfury, you can forget about carrying a melee weapon.
-Stoic + Swarm is da bomb.

Modifié par TBastian, 22 juin 2010 - 07:25 .

[Stormbringer3]

I'm going to start a Shapeshifter. I'd like someone to reaffirm my opinion that offensive sustainables such as Frost weapons do not carry over to the Shapeshift form, but defensive sustainables such as Arcane Shield and Rock Armor do.

Thanks.

[TBastian]

No they don't.

[Stormbringer3]

Thanks for the reply. So, since Rock Armor etc. doesn't carry over, the only defense bonuses will come from wearing armor or robes?

Thanks.

[TBastian]

Yep. Plus bonuses from the forms.You get stats bonuses, resistances, immunities, and other unique goodies. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take Arcane Shield and Rock Armor though, your human/elven form is as important as your shifted ones. You'll be spending more time nuking than a)letting your forms take care of survivors/bosses and b)letting them save you from a situation gone horribly wrong. You should be shapeshifting only around 1/3-1/2 the time.
See my suggested build above.

Modifié par TBastian, 22 juin 2010 - 08:48 .

[DWSmiley]

TBastian wrote...

-Secondary: Any weapon with good -base- damage and a good damage modifier. Switch to this before shifting. Set your AI to "Ranged", so your character doesn't switch to a melee weapon. There is a bug that causes the AI your forms to switch weapon even while shifted, so don't unselect your character unless the game is paused. Turning off AI completely takes care of this though, and since you'll be doing most of the nuking and support you can just leave your allies to fend for themselves. In any case you won't want to use the AI, with all your nukes it will likely get you killed.

Hey, TBastian.  I'm starting a SS/SH now but this bit of advice confuses me.  When shifted, you want to be "using" your melee weapon, do you not?  So it seems you would want "Ranged" while nuking but "Aggressive" while shifted.  Also, is it that the AI gets confused by having spell-casting tactics active but unusable while shifted?  If so, I could see having a second set of tactics that one would switch to just before shifting.  Maybe even three custome sets - nuker, spider and bear.