42 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The belief tha anything possibly good can come out of the DR is what is idiotic.

I have to disagree. My PC wasn't at all sure that preserving an old god might not be a good thing. My female PCs choose it to make sure that Alistair lives, but my first PC, a male one who did the dark ritual didn't figure he knew enough about gods to say for sure that Morrigan was wrong. And he wanted to live. Those things taken together made a convincing argument.

The only thing he had to be argued out of was queasiness about overwriting the child's soul. There's no denying the bad in that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 21 juin 2010 - 04:08 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Believe what you want, that is youre right. I much rather be safe than sorry on thw whole issue.

[Eudaemonium]

Unless I'm actually trying for achievements I nearly always do the DR - it was my first and my favourite ending. The exception is when I spare Loghain, when I tend to go for Redeemer. I just like it, it seems like the most developed ending - particularly, I think if you're a female Warden and you have to decide whether to persuade/force Alistair to do it. I also agree with others that the results do not necessarily = bad.

Also, its the best ending for a sequel. IMO.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Believe what you want, that is youre right. I much rather be safe than sorry on thw whole issue.

You don't even know that you're being safe, though, as if the god baby is a good thing and ends up being the only one who can save the world then you may very well have doomed everyone by not doing the DR. We won't know until the sequel.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Believe what you want, that is youre right. I much rather be safe than sorry on thw whole issue.

You don't even know that you're being safe, though, as if the god baby is a good thing and ends up being the only one who can save the world then you may very well have doomed everyone by not doing the DR. We won't know until the sequel.

Right and trusting Morrigan is such a safer step to take. Personally if Bioware goes the whole OG saves the world route I think that would be quite weak. If she thinks that the OG could do that, she sould say that, not just half say the whole thing.

[Arthur Cousland]

My first time completing the game, I sacrificed Loghain, because I'm trying to spread all endings/romances across 4 playthroughs, and since my character was a templar/champion tank, it seemed like the best time to do it. My templar romanced Leliana and Zevran (by accident).



My mage sacrificed Alistair and romanced Leliana again.



My next playthrough, as a rogue will romance either Alistair or Morrigan (not sure about gender yet), and either do Ultimate Sacrifice or the Ritual.



I haven't done Morrigan's Ritual yet, but I picked that one as favorite, because ideally, I'd have Alistair as king, Loghain dead, and my warden alive.

[Suron]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Believe what you want, that is youre right. I much rather be safe than sorry on thw whole issue.

by your own statment you admit to not trusting her or the ritual..which is what we're saying

see.  we are on the same page.

nice playing though

Modifié par Suron, 21 juin 2010 - 04:23 .

[R-F]

My mage did the dark ritual with Morrigan (who was his lover before hand) and thus was spared. During the coronation he said that he would venture off in search of Morrigan. I honestly didn't like the ultimate sacrifice ending my poor warden has to go through so much, and to simply die at the end is not really fair.

[Tellervo]

Suron wrote...

Tellervo wrote...

Mdfitz wrote...

it seems that alot people like living

I think a lot of people also like the tragedy of the DR.  If you're playing a more or less good Warden or one who is at least interested in duty/the future, the moment of weakness that leads to agreeing to the DR is incredibly humanizing, and makes for a very compelling bit of failure in the hero.

why's it a failure on the hero's part if he agree's to the ritual?  it all depends on the personality and how you're playing that particular Warden.

My first playthrough..my warden was mr goody goody...romanced Morrigan but ended up Leliana yes..but he still trusted Morrigan and saw how she had changed..he believed her about the ritual and that she had benevolent plans for the child.  He understood why she didn't want him following her because she has a hard time trusting anyone and doesn't want outside influence on the child..wasn't happy with it..but that was no reason, considering his trust, to turn down the ritual.

the ONLY regret I have about that playthrough is the fact he wanted to tell Leliana what happened and try to explain why he did it so she'd hopefully understand..but you have no choice but to not even bring it up.

however him taking the ritual was, in NO WAY, ANY sort of failure on his part.  Nor did it take any of his heroism or character away.  

Sacrificing yourself is heroic, just as taking the ritual, for the right reasons....if you don't trust or like Morrigan..etc...then fine...but if you actually trust and believe Morrigan..then sacrificing yourself is stupid..stupidity is NOT in any way heroic....

now you have a point if your goody goody doesn't like and/or trust morrigan and gives in BECAUSE he doesn't want to die..then yes..THAT is a failure on the hero.

but please...this auto-labeling of any "good" hero that takes the ritual as it being some kind of failure is absolutely idiotic.

Giving in because of your LI is a "failure" from a classically heroic standpoint.  Assuming that the kid isn't going to be a problem in the future, even if you trust Morrigan, is very naive, because it's quite clear Flemeth is just gone for now, and any number of other powers in Thedas would love to have their hands on such a person.  Morrigan is a strong individual, yes, but an individual.

On my first playthrough, Morrigan was my Warden's best friend, and his logic for agreeing was that he didn't want to lose anyone and didn't want to off and die on his LI.  Even then, though, he was certain it would come back to bite him in the ass some day.  That is, in a heroic sense (for a hero who is conscious of future consequences, anyway) something of a failure: knowing you're creating an even bigger problem in the future, and doing it anyway.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I did the US first. I didn't really trust Morrigan or find her attractive, so I really wasn't interested in the DR, but I consulted Alistair to see if he thought wading through Morrigan's swamp and spawning a OGB was worth it, and he agreed hell no. I had Alistair to be King, so I didn't want him to die and me have to face the wrath of pissed off Anora that I chopped her dad's head off and stripped her of her throne not to mention I thought Alistair would be good for the kingdom despite him being a rookie he had good characteristics plus he had seen Fereldon and understood what suffering was going on, and he would allow GW to establish their presence.



Now that I have played the game to the end four times, and working on two more right now.



I prefer Anora over Alistair as a ruler. I understand Morrigan a lot more, so the DR is not near as taboo.

[Sarah1281]

Giving in because of your LI is a "failure" from a classically heroic standpoint. Assuming that the kid isn't going to be a problem in the future, even if you trust Morrigan, is very naive, because it's quite clear Flemeth is just gone for now, and any number of other powers in Thedas would love to have their hands on such a person. Morrigan is a strong individual, yes, but an individual.



On my first playthrough, Morrigan was my Warden's best friend, and his logic for agreeing was that he didn't want to lose anyone and didn't want to off and die on his LI. Even then, though, he was certain it would come back to bite him in the ass some day. That is, in a heroic sense (for a hero who is conscious of future consequences, anyway) something of a failure: knowing you're creating an even bigger problem in the future, and doing it anyway.

So it could make you a 'failure' if you do it for you LI? What if you're mostly doing it as an insurance policy in case you you/Loghain(or Alistair)/Riordan all die?

[Aurelet]

Where is the "Alistair ganked my archdemon" selection for the first ending? He hasn't hit the roof since

[Fishy]

The first time i did not kill Loghain and he sacrified himself at the dragon.I romanced Morrigan and i rejected the idea of that dark ritual.

me.

Modifié par Suprez30, 21 juin 2010 - 11:25 .

[Fishy]

GardenSnake wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Mdfitz wrote...

it seems that alot people like living

Probably a lot of people like Morrigan too.

SEXY TIME!!!!!! Well, I'd say it was pretty much a no brainer for anyone who was romancing Morrigan and actually liked her character. The way she says she cares about you just makes you go, screw this I want to live lets do this thing. I personally did it because after Riordan broke the news that it was either me or Alistair, I was really depressed while walking back to my room (me actually, I guess that's what was going through my warden's head too). Here I am, sixty hours into the game with a warden that I've molded exactly the way I wanted, I've made some tough decisions and forged good friendships and even a few romances with my warden too. All of that just to find out that either me or one of my favorite characters (Alistair) was gonna end up on the chopping block? The DR came completely out of left field for me and I didn't even hesitate. Sure I asked questions about the OGB, but honestly though, I didn't care about the reprocussions it would obviously bring at that point. I get to do Morrigan and neither me or Alistair are gonna end up dead? What's not to love? Leliana would understand, I mean she got over the fact that my warden had been romancing her before hand, one more night that will end up with me making it won't ****** her off will it?  

In 1 word

Selfish.
I don't recycle because who care.I will be dead when the earth die

Modifié par Suprez30, 21 juin 2010 - 11:30 .

[SusanStoHelit]

I voted on my first playthrough ending, since I've finished the game 5 times. But having done only 2 of the 4 endings so far, I can't vote on that one yet. I'm working on the other 2 right now. I can say, however, that of the 2 I've already done, the DR beats the US hands down.



The US has a great deal of pathos, and it was very 'in character' for Marrul and was the correct choice for her considering other choices and outcomes in the game. Nevertheless, losing the character was a blow - and no way is she going to be miraculously alive to do Awakening and so on. THAT is a complete and utter idiocy I cannot even begin to fathom.



The DR ritual, however, just feels right. Some of my characters know and trust her, others are wary or a little distrustful, yet in either case we will be alive to DO something about what happens in the future. The baby itself will be good or evil or neutral and there's no way of knowing which - just like any other baby that's brought into the world. Arl Howe's mother didn't know that her baby would be an evil monster, I would think. As for Morrigan, I sometimes killed Flemeth - and sometimes didn't - depending on my level of trust. But if I'm dead - or Alistair is - there's one less of us to deal with Morrigan/Flemeth in the future. The two of us together, whether as lovers or friends, have raised an army, defeated all kinds of foes, and will manage to stop a blight and destroy an archdemon. We'll deal with the swamp witch duo if or when necessary, too.

[Fishy]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I voted on my first playthrough ending, since I've finished the game 5 times. But having done only 2 of the 4 endings so far, I can't vote on that one yet. I'm working on the other 2 right now. I can say, however, that of the 2 I've already done, the DR beats the US hands down.

The US has a great deal of pathos, and it was very 'in character' for Marrul and was the correct choice for her considering other choices and outcomes in the game. Nevertheless, losing the character was a blow - and no way is she going to be miraculously alive to do Awakening and so on. THAT is a complete and utter idiocy I cannot even begin to fathom.

The DR ritual, however, just feels right. Some of my characters know and trust her, others are wary or a little distrustful, yet in either case we will be alive to DO something about what happens in the future. The baby itself will be good or evil or neutral and there's no way of knowing which - just like any other baby that's brought into the world. Arl Howe's mother didn't know that her baby would be an evil monster, I would think. As for Morrigan, I sometimes killed Flemeth - and sometimes didn't - depending on my level of trust. But if I'm dead - or Alistair is - there's one less of us to deal with Morrigan/Flemeth in the future. The two of us together, whether as lovers or friends, have raised an army, defeated all kinds of foes, and will manage to stop a blight and destroy an archdemon. We'll deal with the swamp witch duo if or when necessary, too.

Such a plot hole anyway .. Flemeth trying to kill you when she save you to save the world.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think Flemeth really tried to kill you, just put on a good show. It's highly unlikely she's really dead, anyway.

[Asdara]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The belief tha anything possibly good can come out of the DR is what is idiotic.

Who says?  You're only assuming Morrigan is evil.

I am rooting for the god baby to save the world.

I think self-serving is a better description than evil.  Which is why there is an argument for the Dark Ritual to be a weak choice on the Warden's part - you don't know.  It's a lot of unknowns to just throw up to chance after the deed is done:  You don't know it will, in fact, save you or anyone else.  You may trust Morrigan - in which case you can believe it will work, or believe she has reason to believe it will work (realizing at some point that she can't really know if it will or not either - given she hasn't, to the best of our knowledge, had any opportunity to field test this particular ritual before).  You don't know to what extent, if any, Flemmeth may be involved behind the scenes on this plan - it could be all Morrigan's own thought process or it could be exactly what Flemmeth had in mind when she sent her with you - it could also be Flemmeth manipulating Morrigan into believing it's her own idea (she does mention that Morrigan will believe what she wants to believe fairly easily when she tries to bargain with you about the fighting her / walking away idea).  You don't know what the baby will be, at all - nor does Morrigan have the ability to actually know that either (again, not field tested).  The list goes on.  How the baby will be used, raised, taught... 

It is a lot of unknowns to roll the dice on for what is, ultimately, a selfish reason (You don't die / Alistair or Loghain doesn't die, Riordan doesn't die).  Even if all three of you die, there are other Wardens in Thedas.  Ferelden might fall, but the Blight will be ended eventually.  You're saving one nation - possibly - while considering unleashing a power that might conceivably at some point endanger all nations.  Or not.  You don't know.  You can believe whatever you like, you can allow yourself to be convinced, you can assume Morrigan has actual facts backing up her claims when there's no reason to believe she does - but ultimately it comes down to you not knowing a lot about what's going to come from this - including if it will even save anyone.  

So, as a Warden, it's a flawed decision.  It's not wrong outright, it isn't completely defendable either, but it's a choice you're making based on your immediate needs and wants with a promise of results.  

I make it with some characters and not with others (like my current extremely anti-bloodmagic mage told Morrigan to take a walk, where my Human Noble was like 'yeah, let's make a baby') but if you examine it closely, it's a really complex decision without any certainty that you end up making on feelings and hopes.