115 réponses à ce sujet

[heretica]

Oh and I forgot to add:

Commander Shepard: Where did you come from? Who built you?

Sovereign: We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.


 By saying that the Collectors are able to build Reapers you are giving them too much credit. I still think the Collectors  are trying to build a synthetic human because Shepard is human and because Shepard is the only one who destroyed a Reaper. Ever.  

Perhaps It's Reaper technology, and the methodology it's from a Reaper source. Perhaps they found a sleeping reaper in space, scavenged it. Learn from it. But that thing is not a Reaper, but a tool to figh against them.

 


 

[Vaenier]

Annie_Dear wrote...


Now for all intents and purposes I think this probably would have made for a better Human Reaper Larva.



That would have been awsome.

Why do they take AWSOME ideas, and replace them with crap ideas for the final game? I am confused...

Side note: If I build a Halo array, would it kill the Reapers too for being made of organics?

Modifié par Vaenier, 21 juin 2010 - 01:37 .

[Christmas Ape]

...see, for this to work, one of the two following statements must be true, and its attendant questions must be answered.



1. Harbinger, though a Reaper, is working against the rest of them.

Questions: Why has he turned traitor on the rest of his kind? And why did he try to kill Shepard with the Collector Cruiser particle weapon, which would offer no corpse to bond with the Larva?



2. Harbinger, though sharing their unique physical characteristics and having access to their technology, is not a Reaper.

Question: Then what the hell is it? Why doesn't it present its case to the Citadel, whose Fleet actually killed Sovereign?

[Khayness]

Catt128 wrote...

By saying that the Collectors are able to build Reapers you are giving them too much credit. I still think the Collectors are trying to build a synthetic human because Shepard is human and because Shepard is the only one who destroyed a Reaper. Ever.  

 

It's all clear now. They wanted to build a statue for Shepard.

[didymos1120]

Catt128 wrote...
That my theory is different doesn't mean it's not sane. :/
 

Mordin:  "Early stages similar to indoctrination. Can guess captured Protheans lost intelligence over several cloned generations. Cybernetic augmentation widespread afterward.  As Protheans failed, Reapers added tech to compensate. Mental capacity almost gone, replaced by overworked sensory input transfers: transmitting data to masters."

Shepard: "Is there anything we can do to help them?"

Mordin: "No. No glands -- replaced by tech. No digestive system -- replaced by tech. No soul -- replaced by tech. Whatever they were...gone forever. Understand now?  No art, no culture...closer to husks than slaves. Tools for Reapers. Protheans dead. Collectors just final insult. Must be destroyed." 

That's why your theory is both different AND insane.

[wizardryforever]

Mister Mida wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

In short: there is not enough information to say anything about the Reapers' origins, motives, and reproduction methods.

But there is enough to advance personal theories as to what those might be.
It's called speculation. It generates more discussion than "lol, dunno".

Any personal ideas you'd like to share, or previously suggested theories that seem plausible to you?

Because you asked:
I think the human Reaper was like a big plan B the Reapers came up with in situations like this. I don't think this is the first time the galaxy is giving the Reapers a hard time of letting them do their little stroll of death and destruction through the Milky Way. So when there is a specific race that stands against them, they may turn them into the Reaper. But if EDI's right and the Reapers tried the same with the Protheans and failed, what was the eventual gaining of wiping them out? Sure, the Collectors, but I think they existed way before the Protheans and that their DNA material wasn't suited for cloning anymore so they turned the Protheans into the new Collectors.

Concerning the construction of Reapers: if all Reapers were biosynthetics, why didn't anyone notice that when they examined Sovereign or the derelict Reaper? I don't find it likely that all Reapers are half organic because that wouldn't have been productive. Humans may be suited for turning into Reaper goo, but who says all species that went before are? Look at the Protheans, they weren't for example.

It is possible that when the Reapers failed to create a Prothean Reaper, they decided to reap the Protheans so the cycle would start over.  Although "reap" may not be the best word here, more like pulling weeds so the flowers can grow.  The Protheans' presence would have inhibited or prevented the natural growth of new species to incorporate.  So they needed to wipe them out in order to allow better suited civilizations to rise.  They only used the Protheans as Collectors in order to facillitate the next Reaper birth.  That's my theory on that.

As for the construction process, it is possible that whenever a civilization rises that isn't suited to their needs, they use them as Collectors for the next birthing when the next cycle occurs.  It is also possible that in cycles past there was a collection of races running the galaxy (like now) instead of just one, like with the Protheans.  They would then find the most suitable race(s) and incorporate them, any others that might be useful they would turn into collector types, and the rest would be culled, to make way for the next cycle.  It is also possible that if the races running the galaxy are completely unsuitable for their needs, they may just kill them, without making another Reaper out of them.  Maybe there were cycles where no new Reapers were constructed.  "Wasted potential."

[heretica]

Christmas Ape wrote...

...see, for this to work, one of the two following statements must be true, and its attendant questions must be answered.

1. Harbinger, though a Reaper, is working against the rest of them.
Questions: Why has he turned traitor on the rest of his kind? And why did he try to kill Shepard with the Collector Cruiser particle weapon, which would offer no corpse to bond with the Larva?

2. Harbinger, though sharing their unique physical characteristics and having access to their technology, is not a Reaper.
Question: Then what the hell is it? Why doesn't it present its case to the Citadel, whose Fleet actually killed Sovereign?

The Reapers might be stupid aswell. Like the lazy husband who is always asking his wife to fetch him things. He obviously has interest in Shepard. But why would they build a Human Reaper... to destroy... humanity? Really? 

The are a ****ing race of sentient machines destroying all organic life, why would they stop and mix human dna with reaper material?? 

Sounds like trolling to me.



And no, they don't want to build a statue of Shepard. She already has one in Akuze. But it would be a cute gesture.

So my theory is insane. The fact that bee-like people are collecting humans to make milkshakes and mold a Human-reaper makes a lot of sense. 

1. Why are they building a Human Reaper?
2. Why do they want Shepards body?
3. Why is TIM so interested into the Collector's base?
4. Harbinger is a Reaper. I thought Reapers remained dormant in dark space until one of them activate the signal. How come Harbinger is awake and building a human-reaper in his free time?
5. Why are they interested in humans, what makes us different? what makes us stand out among other races? Our genetics? If so, what kind of role have the other races in this?
6. By the time they finish the larva, there will be no humans left to to crush, see them driven before the Reapers, and to hear the lamentation of their women. Point?
7. How do humanity and rest of galactic species pretend to fight that swarm of Reapers we see by the end of ME2. To me, saving the collector's base and learning how to use their technology against them does makes sense. 

I find this very exciting to argue,but  I'm not  saying i'm right. This is just another point of view.  a "what if..?" kind of thing.

Modifié par Catt128, 21 juin 2010 - 02:22 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

From what I read, skipping the Terminator franchise made my appreciation of the end boss much easier:P.

[Ecael]

Vaenier wrote...

Why do they take AWSOME ideas, and replace them with crap ideas for the final game? I am confused...

Side note: If I build a Halo array, would it kill the Reapers too for being made of organics?

Like I said on the first page, it might get the game banned in some countries.

[didymos1120]

Catt128 wrote...
1. Why are they building a Human Reaper?

Not enough info to say for sure. Best guess at the moment: that's the Reaper mode of reproduction. Fairly likely that there were other uses in mind for the finished product.  What's clear though is that, whatever the reason(s), that was a nascent Reaper. 

2. Why do they want Shepards body?

Also not enough info to say with precision or certainty, but a very good guess is that they're interested in his/her genetics. Why?  'Cause the Collectors are only known for one thing prior to ME2: paying well for stuff like identical Quarian triplets or interestingly deformed batarians or whatever.  It's also clear they're not interested in just the sequence data alone, since they seem to prefer live subjects, or subjects that were very recently alive.  Given how context dependent genes are, and the fact that they're constantly being switched on and off, this isn't too surprising.

3. Why is TIM so interested into the Collector's base?

'Cause he thinks it's full of tech and knowledge he can use to secure human dominance. Sure, he's interested in using it against the Reapers if he can, but that's purely a short-term concern for him. Did you just not listen to anything he says in the game?

4. Harbinger is a Reaper. I thought Reapers remained dormant in dark space until one of them activate the signal. How come Harbinger is awake and building a human-reaper in his free time?

Umm, yeah, that bit of speculation came from Vigil.  And, uh, even if that's basically correct, we already know of one exception: Sovereign.  Is another that hard to accomodate? Also: ever woken up in the middle of the night, performed some brief activity, and then gone back to sleep?  Well, when your "night" lasts ~50,000 years, a "brief activity" can take a very long time in non-Reaper terms.  And yet another analogy:  working the night shift. 

5. Why are they interested in humans, what makes us different? what makes us stand out among other races? Our genetics? If so, what kind of role have the other races in this?

We don't know the criteria for selection.  Genetic diversity is very probably part of it, but even if it is, we still don't know why that would matter. There just isn't enough information about the Reapers to say. Anyway: your point?  'Cause that lack of knowledge doesn't make alternate theories more plausible. 

6. By the time they finish the larva, there will be no humans left to to crush, see them driven before the Reapers, and to hear the lamentation of their women. Point?

Pure assumption.  We have no idea how many people would have been required or how long it would have taken. Best we can say is "More of both."  Not that it matters, because everything we know at this time says the point was making a new Reaper.

7. How do humanity and rest of galactic species pretend to fight that swarm of Reapers we see by the end of ME2. To me, saving the collector's base and learning how to use their technology against them does makes sense. 

Who knows? Just because the base could have potentially made fighting the Reapers easier, that doesn't mean that it really would have helped, nor does it even remotely lend credence to the idea that that was actually the true purpose of the base, much less the purpose of the larval Human-Reaper.

[PwnDaddy123]

Catt128 wrote...

I find this very exciting to argue,but  I'm not  saying i'm right. This is just another point of view.  a "what if..?" kind of thing.

This pretty much ends every Mass Effect arguement ever. The whole series is based on a what if. No one knows where the reapers come from so every assumption from this point on is just an opinion. Mordin might talks about the reapers among other characters who do so. But then again, what more do they know? The point of the reapers is to get rid of them and not figure them out. Someone said something among those lines at one point in-game, forgot who.

So everything that happens in game, everything a character says to Shepard... It all could be assumed to be something else. Maybe Shepard is actually living in the 20th century and he's in some sort of psychiatrict hospital imagining all this stuff. We are not a spectator in this game, we are Shepard, and so far Shepard has been played around like a tool a lot, so I'm sure at some point, some characters fed us a bunch of lies cough cough, Illusive Man.

Mass Effect is one of those games that doesn't hint anything of what will happen in the next game. As far as I know though, all three games were in mind before they making of them. So I think we'll be in store for a surprise (like ME2) in terms of plot and we're going to get a solid story no matter what... despite the crappy endings to  video games I have played.

Modifié par PwnDaddy123, 21 juin 2010 - 03:43 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Ecael wrote...

Like I said on the first page, it might get the game banned in some countries.

Half Life had a big baby to kill at the end.

[smudboy]

Yes. Yes it is.

[MaaZeus]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Like I said on the first page, it might get the game banned in some countries.

Half Life had a big baby to kill at the end.

Yup. I doubt the more fetus-like Reaper larva would get it banned. Its not human, and its not exactly defenseless and DEFINETLY not harmless. Also its not fully an organic "alive" thing. Its a shame Bioware didnt go for that concept art. We wouldnt have these Termireapernator discussions then.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 21 juin 2010 - 04:11 .

[jojon2se]

Reaper grey goo is probably not so much just shapeless grey goo under a microscope. Our bio mass would likely be reconstituted into some sort of networked organisms (geth style), kind of in the way that our enzymes reconstitutes amino acids, passing through our digestive system, into others, suited to our needs, but on a macro scale. How complex these are and how much of our individuality they retain, is probably an issue that can be folded into the general it's-a-story-just-accept-it-ness, that is necessary to enjoy the whole concept.

[JaegerBane]

rabidhanar wrote...

The Point isn't just the look of the reaper it is it's new backstory...
Most people are mad because of the obvious cop-out in a final boss. The entire ending was flawed, Why would Reapers be made from genetic material to begin with is the most obvious question.

I love it when people claim this is a flaw. It's like saying that Sauron being a great eye is a 'flaw' or the fact that the Marines in Aliens speak english is a 'flaw'.

What precisely is it about the idea that Reapers reproduce by pirating genetics that means it's a flaw? It's not even like the idea hasn't been used in sci-fi before, for Pete's sake. You may not like it, but it's no more a flaw than any other concept in fiction.

Secondly comes the fact that it does look human. The boss was a joke and yes it does look like the terminator. Saren had this issue too but it wasn't as bad. While still a stupid Idea, Saren's implants attacking shepard could potentially be possible because it is reaper tech, we had no idea what it was capable of.

This is purely something you've just decided out of your own opinion. You have nothing objective to back this up whatsoever - by all means, express your opinion, but please don't be so arrogant to bill your opinions as 'proof it was flawed'.

Before the reapers were the big scary enemies we knew almost nothing about, Sovereign as a character was impressive to say the least. Now though, they seem rediculous. Fighting the "larva" really ruined the reapers fear factor to me and I know the same can be said about other people.

That's too bad. To someone who isn't so narrow-minded that they flip off into hysterics the second they see something that looks like a big skeleton, you come across as if you're looking for things to complain about.

[Iakus]

JaegerBane wrote...

rabidhanar wrote...

The Point isn't just the look of the reaper it is it's new backstory...
Most people are mad because of the obvious cop-out in a final boss. The entire ending was flawed, Why would Reapers be made from genetic material to begin with is the most obvious question.

I love it when people claim this is a flaw. It's like saying that Sauron being a great eye is a 'flaw' or the fact that the Marines in Aliens speak english is a 'flaw'.

What precisely is it about the idea that Reapers reproduce by pirating genetics that means it's a flaw? It's not even like the idea hasn't been used in sci-fi before, for Pete's sake. You may not like it, but it's no more a flaw than any other concept in fiction.

Never heard of Sauron being an eye or the marines speaking English in Aliens as flaws, but oh well.

It has been used before.  The problem is it flies in the face of what we've learned before about reapers:

Sovereign:  Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

Now if Reapers are made of genetic smoothies, doesn't that make them, at least in part, organic?  If it's nothing but an accident or a mutation, why is it so vital to them?

JaegerBane wrote...

Secondly comes the fact that it does look human. The boss was a joke and yes it does look like the terminator. Saren had this issue too but it wasn't as bad. While still a stupid Idea, Saren's implants attacking shepard could potentially be possible because it is reaper tech, we had no idea what it was capable of.

This is purely something you've just decided out of your own opinion. You have nothing objective to back this up whatsoever - by all means, express your opinion, but please don't be so arrogant to bill your opinions as 'proof it was flawed'.

It is a good question, if perhaps not respectfully asked.  Why does the baby Reaper have to look human?  It's not scary or disturbing.  Certainly not imtimidating.  How does the genetic information of a species affect how the nonorganic parts of a Reaper are shaped?

Saren's cybernetic implants kinda make sense in that after his death they let Sovereign manipulate him like a sock puppet.  The fact that turians are humanoid in shape adds to the Terminator look.

JaegerBane wrote...

Before the reapers were the big scary enemies we knew almost nothing about, Sovereign as a character was impressive to say the least. Now though, they seem rediculous. Fighting the "larva" really ruined the reapers fear factor to me and I know the same can be said about other people.

That's too bad. To someone who isn't so narrow-minded that they flip off into hysterics the second they see something that looks like a big skeleton, you come across as if you're looking for things to complain about.

It does kind of make you wonder what direction the series is going though:

ME 1:  Shepard fights Reeaper agent, the Reaper by proxy (Saren)

ME 2  Shepard goes toe-to-toe with a Reaper, albiet a baby one

ME 3:  Shepard/Harbringer cage match for the fate of the galaxy?

[Annie_Dear]

Vaenier wrote...

Annie_Dear wrote...


Now for all intents and purposes I think this probably would have made for a better Human Reaper Larva.



That would have been awsome.

Why do they take AWSOME ideas, and replace them with crap ideas for the final game? I am confused...

It always happens. The consept art is always more interesting than the final product....

[The Questioning Motive]

I'll accept judgment on the reaper fight being stupid when the person who said this comes back from fighting a reaper baby without the use of an interstellar ship. You bought the game, if you hate the ending so much... Return it.

[JaegerBane]

iakus wrote...
Never heard of Sauron being an eye or the marines speaking English in Aliens as flaws, but oh well.

It has been used before.  The problem is it flies in the face of what we've learned before about reapers:

Sovereign:  Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

Now if Reapers are made of genetic smoothies, doesn't that make them, at least in part, organic?  If it's nothing but an accident or a mutation, why is it so vital to them?

You're forgetting that Sovereign made it a point to bill the Reaper's actions as 'imposing order on chaos'. Consider what that might mean in the context of the idea that Reapers melt living beings down into raw materials...

Could it be that the Reapers consider what they do as simply distilling raw materials into something 'better'? Something that can't go extinct, can't die, and can simply endure? Life may be an accident - i.e. chaotic. 'Refining' a species into a Reaper - something that isn't accidental, or short lived, or whatever - may be their whole purpose all along.

It is a good question, if perhaps not respectfully asked.  Why does the baby Reaper have to look human?  It's not scary or disturbing.  Certainly not imtimidating.  How does the genetic information of a species affect how the nonorganic parts of a Reaper are shaped?

Saren's cybernetic implants kinda make sense in that after his death they let Sovereign manipulate him like a sock puppet.  The fact that turians are humanoid in shape adds to the Terminator look.

I think it's clear by now that the Reapers are not conventional Synthetics. They're defintiely 'assembled' rather than born and there presumably is a very good reason for going through the herculean effort of 'Reaping' a whole species to build a new Reaper. Logically, that implies the process is at least part of the Reaper's reason for existence.

It does kind of make you wonder what direction the series is going though:

ME 1:  Shepard fights Reeaper agent, the Reaper by proxy (Saren)

ME 2  Shepard goes toe-to-toe with a Reaper, albiet a baby one

ME 3:  Shepard/Harbringer cage match for the fate of the galaxy?

I had wondered whether Overlord's virtual reality fights were foreshadowing how this will end....

[Giant Panther]

Ecael wrote...

Like I said on the first page, it might get the game banned in some countries.

Your ideas were actually very reasonable, I mean even Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great would have trouble defeating a reaper armada. Shepard ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL over a reaper seems to me like a realist way of actually defeating a far advanced reaper armada.

[Ecael]

MaaZeus wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Like I said on the first page, it might get the game banned in some countries.

Half Life had a big baby to kill at the end.

Yup. I doubt the more fetus-like Reaper larva would get it banned. Its not human, and its not exactly defenseless and DEFINETLY not harmless. Also its not fully an organic "alive" thing. Its a shame Bioware didnt go for that concept art. We wouldnt have these Termireapernator discussions then.

I'm not sure the first Half-Life had that many international sales when it was first released. With the advent of Steam, Half-Life 2 became something to worry about though.

Bethesda self-censored themselves with Fallout 3 by making children invincible (but it could be removed with modding). BioWare tries to avoid creating child NPCs whenever possible.

I think in Dragon Age limited child NPCs to cutscenes - but I may be wrong.

Modifié par Ecael, 21 juin 2010 - 09:20 .

[Mev186]

The final boss kept this game from being flawless. It was stupid and nonsensical. A human Reaper ?...really ? Try to imagine that thing flying through space. Even thouggh it may up looking like a real Reaper, why have it shaped like a human at all ? Why not have it look like a smaller version of a Reaper, or even that concept art. I suppose they ran out of creativity when it came time to the end battle.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I think its just the actual ship portion you see with the other Reapers not the Reaper itself.