115 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

On that note, one thing I've considered is that the fact that Collectors pay with technology might be part of encouraging things to develop along certain lines. 'Cause, honestly, it's not like they couldn't have simply payed in credits. I mean, we know that they had various agents from other species, so I hardly think getting a bank account or two was beyond their abilities. Or they could have just payed with precious metals, eezo, or other raw materials, which they obviously used, and which they must have acquired themselves since, as far as we know, they only traded for specimens from the various sentient species. Plus, they apparently only did business in the Terminus systems, where people aren't too picky about selling and owning other people or kidnapping them en masse when their stock starts to run low.

Modifié par didymos1120, 22 juin 2010 - 11:44 .

[Iakus]

didymos1120 wrote...

iakus wrote...

The original implication of "imposing order on chaos" that i got was "we're gonna kill all intelligent life so they can't mess up our perfectly ordered galaxy"

Which isn't really consistent with what they actually do: channel species along certain technological paths, then systematically dismantle the resulting civilization (as opposed to just dropping by and vaporizing everyone with ultra-super-mega-nukes or antimatter warheads or something).  If you just wanna kill 'em all, why not just get rid of 'em before they even get off the ground (literally)? Barring fleet actions and bad luck, they're immortal and have massive technological resources.  No reason they couldn't just cruise about periodically and destroy the ecosystems of garden worlds.   Just redirect a couple asteroids when you find one, and go back to playing Reaper-chess or whatever.  That takes care of 99% of the organic chaos of interest right there.  Sure, occasionally you'll get some oddball species like the volus popping up on non-garden worlds, but, well, they're rare and it's not like they couldn't figure out ways of detecting when a biosphere like that is starting to get uppity.  

Yeah that was a head-scratcher for me, why they simply stuck with wiping out intelligent life.  I'm willing to accept that for some reason they need intelligent-life smoothies to make more reapers.  I'm curious to see where that goes.

Doesn't change the fact that the baby Reaper's form was really, really lame.

[JaegerBane]

iakus wrote...
The original implication of "imposing order on chaos" that i got was "we're gonna kill all intelligent life so they can't mess up our perfectly ordered galaxy"

As the other dude said, this wasn't really consistent with the Reaper's Modus Operandi. There's too much about the Reaper's actions and tactics that point to them 'acquiring' species to claim that it was solely about blowing stuff up.

So:  It needs human organic material.  Fine Why do the nonorganic parts look humanoid?  It makes no sense.  At most, shouldn't it look like a gigantic brain?  A DNA helilx?  An AI with human thought patterns?

The term 'nonorganic' isn't really adequate to be used when discussing reapers, as they are artificially assembled but from raw genetic material. In some respects the Reapers are organic by virtue of the fact they're made out of organics, but processed and refined into a form that, to our eyes, looks somewhat artificial (that said, Sovereign never really looked completely synthetic - compare him to turian and human vessels and he looks more like an animal).

As for the questions as to why it wouldn't look like a DNA helix or a brain - I'm not really sure why you;d expect that. Human genetics do not solely concern brains nor do they direct the formation of cells into something that looks like a double helix, so why would a design based on that genetic code adopt such a form? And what do you mean by 'human thought patterns'?

iakus wrote...
Doesn't change the fact that the baby Reaper's form was really, really lame.

It does, on the basis for it be a 'fact' it would need to be proven. You can't 'prove' something is lame any more than you can 'prove' something is cool, either.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why people flip out over the fact that the human Reaper looked like a human. It's such an arbitrary detail to get annoyed about. It's like saying the sky is lame for being blue.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 22 juin 2010 - 09:25 .

[jojon2se]

Bluko wrote...
...
I think it's also fair to say that the Reapers must gain something by harvesting us. What this is exactly I have clue.
...

Genetic diversity? The results of a few thousand years of survival of the fittest (which involves the very chaos the reapers like to belittle to our faces, but which is really the source of their gains)? They do not evolve on their own; they let /us/ evolve for a while and then cherrypicks from the crop, reaping the product of our history (biological, cultural, technological), along with our raw biomass (any individual-specific info would be scanned before/during slurrifying people and "imbued" in the slurry cells built from each individual). It would seem, in reaper view, condensing a species into one of them, is the final, no longer random, step in /our/ evolution.

The whole evolving-according-to their-intentions, would simply be all about our last step, out in the galaxy, getting us to lazily become mere users/consumers of their relay network, without bothering to learn to fully understand and control the technology, for the sole purpose of making us sitting ducks, when the harvest season does arrive.

[Ariella]

rabidhanar wrote...

The Point isn't just the look of the reaper it is it's new backstory...
Most people are mad because of the obvious cop-out in a final boss. The entire ending was flawed, Why would Reapers be made from genetic material to begin with is the most obvious question.

I'm surprised nobody has seen an obvious answer to this in the idea that they might see a strength in assimilating the genetic material of an enemy. Many anicent cultures had ritual canniblism of ones' enemies as to assume attributes of those conquered. 

[Christmas Ape]

Doesn't change the fact that the baby Reaper's form was really, really lame.

Though vastly more conceptually sound than the evil-fantasy-gods-in-space heavy-metal-album-cover fetus.

[MaaZeus]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Doesn't change the fact that the baby Reaper's form was really, really lame.

Though vastly more conceptually sound than the evil-fantasy-gods-in-space heavy-metal-album-cover fetus.

Disagreed. Perhaps the fetus would be overdone and would step too much in the horror department, but the other concept art would have been miles better. It actually looks like a frigging Reaper (Reaperish construct I mean) yet still fits in the Human-reaper idea, it looks like something you are growing/building from part organic and synthetic materials. In its current form when I see it I cannot help but get some dumb images in your head, Terminator being one of them. Its not a reaper, its a big skeleton robot.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 22 juin 2010 - 11:31 .

[Iakus]

JaegerBane wrote...

iakus wrote...

So:  It needs human organic material.  Fine Why do the nonorganic parts look humanoid?  It makes no sense.  At most, shouldn't it look like a gigantic brain?  A DNA helilx?  An AI with human thought patterns?

The term 'nonorganic' isn't really adequate to be used when discussing reapers, as they are artificially assembled but from raw genetic material. In some respects the Reapers are organic by virtue of the fact they're made out of organics, but processed and refined into a form that, to our eyes, looks somewhat artificial (that said, Sovereign never really looked completely synthetic - compare him to turian and human vessels and he looks more like an animal).

So the entirety of the Reaper is...caramelized genetic smoothie?  Did it set like Jello?  Or solidify like rock candy?  What is the Reaper made of anyway, and can it still be called "organic" at that point.?  Whatever it is, it's practically bulletproof.

And Soveregin looked like a squid or cuttlefish, very cthuloid, which was cool. (elder gods and all)  Just like every other Reaper we saw waking up in dark space.

JaegerBane wrote...

As for the questions as to why it wouldn't look like a DNA helix or a brain - I'm not really sure why you;d expect that. Human genetics do not solely concern brains nor do they direct the formation of cells into something that looks like a double helix, so why would a design based on that genetic code adopt such a form? And what do you mean by 'human thought patterns'?

I was just throwing out other ideas about what form a Reaper could take if it used human genetic material in its makeup.  Just because it as human DNA in it, why should it look human, even only superficially?  is having two arms, two legs, one head, and bilaterally symmetrical that imiportant a trait to Reapers?

What I mean is:  what is it about humans (or any other race) that Reapers seem to need?  Surely it's noting so superficial as appearance.

JaegerBane wrote...

iakus wrote...
Doesn't change the fact that the baby Reaper's form was really, really lame.

It does, on the basis for it be a 'fact' it would need to be proven. You can't 'prove' something is lame any more than you can 'prove' something is cool, either.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why people flip out over the fact that the human Reaper looked like a human. It's such an arbitrary detail to get annoyed about. It's like saying the sky is lame for being blue.

I admit that is my opinion.  But it was really immersion-breaking. It made no sense, it was just an excuse fro Shepard to fight a Reaper personally.  It made the entire final battle so...video-gamey.

"Oh looks a giant metallic humanoid to fight.  Wonder if it's a load-bearing boss"

::crash::

"Yep"

[Christmas Ape]

Disagreed. Perhaps the fetus would be overdone, but the other concept art would have been miles better. It actually looks like a frigging reaper yet still fits in the Human-reaper idea, it looks like something you are growing/building from part organic and synthetic materials. In its current form when I see it I cannot help but get some dumb images in your head, Terminator being one of them. Its not a reaper, its a big skeleton robot.

That's sort of the miracle of dream-like detail-free concept art; you can project whatever you want onto it and it doesn't have to live up to the realities of coding.



The fetus also makes no damn sense. I defy anybody to present something even as sound as "keeping residual species self-image to maintain individuality among Reapers" for the fetus. No species thinks of themselves as a partially developed embryo.



To me, the hanging-robot-skeleton concept art is pretty much what we got, except the one we got has hands because the forums would be full of "It has FLIPPERS?" threads if they left the arms unfinished. Oh, and they scaled down its distance from the platform, I presume to let shorter-range weapons hit it. Otherwise, I really don't see a difference in the execution of what we got vs what we would have gotten, other than personal subconscious "filling in" of details on the art.

[didymos1120]

What's more, the fingers look like the Reaper pseudo-tentacles.

[MaaZeus]

didymos1120 wrote...

What's more, the fingers look like the Reaper pseudo-tentacles.

Great. Now I got a mental image of humar reaper doing "UNLIMITED POWAAAH!!! with Thannix beams"

Just kidding.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 23 juin 2010 - 12:00 .

[didymos1120]

Christmas Ape wrote...

The fetus also makes no damn sense. I defy anybody to present something even as sound as "keeping residual species self-image to maintain individuality among Reapers" for the fetus.

The Collectors also collect sonograms?  Embryology is what Harbinger always wanted to study before his Reaper-dad threatened to cut him off for not pursuing an MBA?

No species thinks of themselves as a partially developed embryo.

Yeah, that's taking neoteny a bit too far.

Modifié par didymos1120, 23 juin 2010 - 12:07 .

[didymos1120]

However, we could have had an "I abort fetuses like you on the way to real problems" interrupt if they'd gone with that concept. Might have been worth it.

[Starscream723]

didymos1120 wrote...

However, we could have had an "I abort fetuses like you on the way to real problems" interrupt if they'd gone with that concept. Might have been worth it.

That alone would definitely have made it worth it.

[Lieutenant Flashlight]

Mev186 wrote...


That would make them Less threatening... The appeal of the Reapers is that they are alien, unknowable. If they're just basicly differnt species with simmilar ships, then they are more like us, relatavke and therefore not as imposing.

That's story progression for you, and we all know how Bioware likes a good story.  They're simply answering all the questions that came to surface in the first game.  Don't be surprised or bummed when you find out the Reaper's motive in the next game. 

[Packa]

Pacifien wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I agree, but it begs the question, if they just needed our DNA, why go to all the trouble of abducting all those people for smoothie-fication?

You can get DNA from saliva, a hair follicle, a skin flake.

Harbinger: EVOLUTION CANNOT BE STOPPED. FIND ME THEIR DNA.
Collector: aHA!
Harbinger: YOU HAVE FOUND THE KEY TO THEIR PERFECTION.
Collector: No! A credit chit!
Harbinger: ...

You, sir, Win. I havn't laughed that hard for that long in years.


Now, Having gone and read the rest of the talk, I shall share my thoughts!

I'll start by saying that the Galaxy is billions of years old and will prolly go on for a few more billion. Maybe change shape, but still go on. I believe I came across a planet in ME2 where it mentioned that in a few billion it would drift out of system or some such, so this statement is atleast true in the Mass effect universe. I also seem to recall ruins on some planets that were thought to "predate the protheans."

We know that there are lots of reapers, from the ending of ME2. They reap the milky way every 50K years or so (only 10K more till they take on the Emporer of Mankind!), So While they might not get a reaper each time (such as the protheans), It can easily make sense IMO.

So Bioware led us on that they use Us to make the reaper, fine. They prolly use use to design the thought process of the new reaper so that they as a whole gain from a new perspective. Then they prolly use the rest of us to be meltdown into the milkshake previously mentioned, build up the reaper it self and their good to go. they reset the rest of the Galaxy or some such so that its ready for the next race.

Now, some times they dont get a suitable race to turn into a reaper, Although I wont reflect on this since we have no idea what makes a race good enough. So, like they did with the protheans, they repurpose them to assist in their task, probably so they can move on out faster. When they left, they left them in the Galactic core to sleep or whatever. I dunno about the harbinger, but we know they rest of them dont think and are just drones, similiar to husks.

We also know that they leave whoeever drew the short straw behind to keep an eye on things. Once soverign saw that the races in the galaxy were about ready, he sent a text message to the collectors to start poking around and testing races and what not. they would be handy for this, as Soverign might stand out... just a little. They prob. do this to speed things up more, because hey, why not. then later on he tried to do the same with the keepers and ... ME1.

Now, the 'Signal' sent to the collectors by soverign that I talk about prolly had a set of instructions or activated a set already settup 50K years ago. Now, I am led to belive that the Harbinger has some capacity to think, not so much a mind of his own, but prob. closer to that of a VI or AI. He found out about Soverign and the citadel, so concluded to start collecting the Race(S) that he found were acceptable. Maybe he would of done this regardless of wheter or not the reapers came, as it was part of said in structions to get the whole thing going. I honestly can't think of a reason he is obsessed with Shepard with my theories.

Personally, I am fine with the ending fight and the rest of the game, except for one thing. I think they really should have expanded on the milkshake before the first time you see it. Other than that, I have faith in Bioware to tell the story come ME3.

/conclude long winded response.

Modifié par Packa, 30 juin 2010 - 10:57 .