[Modified 13 Nov 2010] The Ultimate Guide for the Omega-4 Relay Mission (aka Suicide Mission)
#551
Posté 28 novembre 2010 - 11:45
#552
Posté 28 novembre 2010 - 11:56
Dreamion wrote...
Evaluate mine.
No Zaeed, Grunt still stuck in the bottle. The loyals are Tali, Kasumi, Legion, Mordin
No armor: Jack dies
No shields: Legion, and Kasumi for the Occulus fight, this should kill Tali.
No Thanix cannon: Thane is dead.
Tech Specialist =Miranda, she's gone, fireteam leader doesn't matter, probably Jacob.Jacob, leader Miranda
Swarm = Samara and Jacob, she'll fail and either she or he will die. Biotic leader: Miranda, squad mates: Kasumi and Mordin, Mordin will die
2nd fireteam lead = Garrus, I don't think he'll die but I hope he does. He won't survive.
Escort = Samara or Jacob, whoever survived, they'll die here. Samara in this case.
Hold the Line team = Garrus + Mordin (Hoping Mordin survives, but meh) Miranda will be the only one and will die
Boss team = Legion + Kasumi.
This should work. Hope you like it.
My hope is for me, Kasumi, and Legion to survive while the rest dies. Mordin and Tali would have been nice but I had to make sacrifices
Btw, if I throw in Zaeed in the Hold the Line, will he die? Cause that would be a pretty sweet bonus..
No, Zaeed will still survive in the scenario I brought up.
Modifié par Da_Lion_Man, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:56 .
#553
Posté 29 novembre 2010 - 12:48
#554
Posté 30 novembre 2010 - 10:43
#555
Posté 30 novembre 2010 - 11:32
Despite Da_Lion_Man's good attempt, it's still a bit messed up.Dreamion wrote...
Evaluate mine.
No Zaeed, Grunt still stuck in the bottle. The loyals are Tali, Kasumi, Legion, Mordin
No armor: Jack dies
No shields: Legion, and Kasumi for the Occulus fight, this should kill Tali.
No Thanix cannon: Thane is dead.
Tech Specialist = Miranda, she's gone, fireteam leader doesn't matter, probably Jacob.
Swarm = Samara and Jacob, she'll fail and either she or he will die.
2nd fireteam lead = Garrus, I don't think he'll die but I hope he does.
Escort = Samara or Jacob, whoever survived, they'll die here.
Hold the Line team = Garrus + Mordin (Hoping Mordin survives, but meh)
Boss team = Legion + Kasumi.
So did I miss something? Did I plan it correctly?
My hope is for me, Kasumi, and Legion to survive while the rest dies. Mordin and Tali would have been nice but I had to make sacrifices
Btw, if I throw in Zaeed in the Hold the Line, will he die? Cause that would be a pretty sweet bonus..
The Escort is chosen before you pick your team that you'll take through the swarm, so can't be a case of Samara/Jacob surviving swarm then getting killed as Escort
Mordin if he is loyal as you indicated at the top has greater chance than any of your non loyals (even your heavys like Zaeed and Garrus)
You basically want Kasumi and Legion to survive but would if possible like to see Mordin live, so here is a more refined and accurate runthrough of the mission.
Armor - Jack
Shields - Tali - Taking Legion and Kasumi to fight the Occulus to ensure Tali death and their survival
Cannon - Thane
Vents - Jacob - 2nd TL unimportant as he'll die anyway
Biotic - Miranda (Having her as 2nd TL is silly because your looking to kill people off)
Swarm death - Garrus - Take Kasumi with you as well, Garrus will get swarmed (crazy as it sounds, but I have faith that Ecael's list on the first page is correct as far as Swarmability is concerned)
2nd TL - Zaeed ("Shepard, I just got waxed godamn nostalgically, got a minute, you might learn something! DON'T use me as Team Leader I suck at it!"
Escort - Samara
HtL - Miranda dead with Legion surviving
Final Battle - Kasumi and Mordin - Both survive
Final Squad - Kasumi, Legion and Mordin
If you want Mordin dead, put him as 2nd TL and don't recruit Zaeed. You can actually still 'kill' Zaeed off post-suicide in this instance because if you take the paragon (save workers) route on his loyalty mission, there is an option to leave him there if you do it post-suicide mission. Like I said though, in this instance if wanting Mordin dead best not recruit Zaeed or he'll pump the HtL score up allowing for all HtL people to stay alive (he has 3pts non-loyal, thus he ensures Miranda would live with her 1pt).
Hope I explained everything good enough for you. This should definitly work how you want it to.
#556
Posté 30 novembre 2010 - 11:48
#557
Posté 01 décembre 2010 - 01:16
Well with three less squaddies making it to that point, he would be a good leader (or maybe if you had Morinth as she sometimes causes the 2nd TL to live no matter who is picked).Da_Lion_Man wrote...
I don't think Zaeed should be a bad team leader at all.
Otherwise, I think its obvious why he wouldn't make a good team leader. My only real beef about it is that it doesn't make sense that a non-loyal Zaeed would 'defend' the crew as they made their escape. Go off on a mad kamikaze run into some collectors whilst the crew made a dash for the Normandy, sure, but not 'hold them off so that the crew could escape'. It kind of goes against the character there (same could be said of Grunt who to some is possibly a 'Big Stupid Krogan'
#558
Posté 01 décembre 2010 - 09:14
And what you say is true, they should have done more with the loyalty concept. Right now, it's just a number that increases your survival odds, but they should make the characters react differently in the mission. That would make the game and story much more interesting.
Like for example: Loyal Miranda quits Cerberus and pretty much approves everything you do with the CB. Unloyal Miranda though doesn't quit and if you choose to destroy the base, she will try to convince you at gunpoint. If you still want to destroy the base, you'll have to kill her.
Loyal Tali should be able to do her job well in all circumstances. Unloyal Tali will only feel good if Garrus and/or Shepard is in her team, if that's not the case, she will panic, make mistakes and die.
It's just an idea of mine.
#559
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 12:58
I know how to make it work with 10 or more, but 8-9 seems like impossible to me.
#560
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 11:16
Looked at a 'best candidates for 8' and no... it's impossible as you'll hit the final leg with just 3 squaddies alive and as Shep can't go to the final battle with just 1 squadmate (which would've made it possible as can get Zaeed and Grunt to the last stage, thus 6pts to save both their hides) then nope, everyone would end up dead.
9 candidates however due to the aforementioned scenario... yes it is (albeit thanks to a bit of cheating)
Best 9 candidates to get Shep out alive even if none are loyal and you've not done any upgrades
Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Mordin, Jack (obviously), Grunt, Zaeed, Kasumi and Samara
Ship deaths - Jack, Kasumi and Garrus
Vents - Jacob
Biotic Swarmed - Mordin (use Samara as Biotic and take Zaeed with you)
2nd TL - Miranda (the cheating bit, because she has plot armor and thus can survive)
Final Battle - Miranda and Samara
HTL - Zaeed and Grunt (they'll both survive as they are above the 2.0 score by a whole point
Shep survives with an unloyal Zaeed and Grunt so they'll be able to wax goddamn nostalgic about the good fight they just been involved in
You could if you wanted swap Legion for Kasumi if you wanted, but you would naturally have needed to get the other 8 squaddies before you get Legion
The other amusing thing is, once the suicide mission is over, if you wanted you could go recruit one of the ones you didn't get, then go do Zaeed's loyalty mission and kill him after taking the route to save the workers.
So technically you can end up with a combination of Grunt and Zaeed/Thane/Kasumi/Tali/Legion. But the first two would be required through the suicide mission.
As much as I love the guy, I've looked to see if it possible to get Garrus out in this situation (because he is a 3/4pointer like Zaeed and Grunt) and sadly it isn't. Even if he survived the ship and vents, he'll die either as swarm bait (because the only 2 people higher than him in the pecking line are Jack and Thane, both of whom are priority ship deaths) or 2nd TL (because he doesn't have plot armor Miranda has).
There is probably some other combinations you could use, but this one makes most sense to me.
Edit: Realised last line wasn't entirely true. Basically put, you need to get to the last stage so that you can have 4 points from the 2 who you leave HtL. So either Grunt and Zaeed as the highest possible score of 6, or one of those plus one of the mid level squaddies that gives 1 point (so technically you could keep one out of Miranda or Samara alive instead of one out of zaeed or grunt in that playthrough of mine).
Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:23 .
#561
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 11:59
So:
All 10 standard characters minus Tali
Unloyal
No upgrades
Oculus:
- Garrus
- Grunt
Results: Jack, Legion, Thane die
Vents:
- Mordin as tech specialist
- Leader: Garrus
Results: Mordin dies
Long walk:
- Biotic Specialist: Samara
- Leader: Miranda
- Escort: None
- Squad members: Jacob and Grunt
Results: Grunt dies
Final boss:
- Squad members: Miranda and Samara
- Holding the line: Jacob and Garrus
Results: Miranda and Samara die
Final results: Shepard, Garrus and Jacob survived
Yeah I had to "cheat" with Miranda, but I don't think it's possible to do otherwise.
Modifié par Da_Lion_Man, 02 décembre 2010 - 12:10 .
#562
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 12:59
Ahdistush wrote...
How to keep only Miranda and Legion alive? rest can die while trying.
If you want to be minimalist, you could use my example I've given about an unloyal squad, leaving Legion in the Normandy not activated and taking Grunt to the final battle instead of Miranda which means her and Zaeed will live, then post suicide, activate Legion and go do Zaeed's mission and take paragon route and leave him trapped at the end.
Or if you want to recruit everyone and have the rest die trying... then there are various methods this could be done, but the most important thing is 'zero' ship upgrades.
Armor - Jack
Shields - Kasumi (she's first choice, but just to be safe, can always take Legion to fight Oculus)
Cannon - Thane
Vents - Garrus (anyone can be used as Team Leader here in this instance)
Biotic Swarmed - Grunt (use Miranda as biotic, any squadmate other than Legion as 2nd squadmate)
2nd Team Leader - Mordin
Escort - Zaeed (either don't do his loyalty or do Paragon route and don't take right side choice at end in convo)
Final Battle - Tali and Samara (former you can either hand evidence in during loyalty mission, side with Legion during fight after doing both or just not bother with her mission, second you can either bodge up her loyalty mission or not bother)
HtL - Miranda and Legion (both loyal) and Jacob (not loyal) (1.5 average score means Jacob will die as he ain't loyal unlike Miranda)
You could swap Tali or Samara with Jacob if you want, as long as they aren't loyal they'll die. But you do need Miranda and Legion on the HtL rather than putting any of them in the FB because it's only way to kill all the others off. Just like you could swap Zaeed with one of the final battle people if needed.
If you want the crew to die, simple, don't bother getting Zaeed till post suicide, then if you want, you can kill him by doing the same route you would if you were recruiting him but at the end choosing to leave him trapped.
#563
Posté 04 décembre 2010 - 11:33
Loyal Tech for the pipes
Loyal Leader for the 2nd squad
Loyal Biotic for the barrier
Loyal Escort for the rescued crew
2x Loyal Squadmates for the final battle
So gaining the loyalty of, say, Legion, Garrus, Samara, and Jack:
Legion goes through the pipes
Garrus commands the 2nd teams
Samara creates the biotic barrier
Jack escorts the rescued crew
You take Legion and Samara to the final battle, and leave Garrus (or Grunt/Zaeed) to Hold the Line alone.
Alternatively
Tali goes through the pipes
Jacob commands the 2nd teams
Jack creates the biotic barrier
Mordin escorts the rescued crew
Take Tali and Jack to the final battle, leave Jacob (or Garrus/Grunt/Zaeed) to Hold the Line alone.
--edit--
Or do the timings mean that you can get away with 3 loyal members? Can you reuse one of the specialists to be the escort?
Modifié par TheTouch, 04 décembre 2010 - 12:12 .
#564
Posté 04 décembre 2010 - 05:15
Bearing in mind you would need 4 other squadmates minimal (as you need 8 to get the Collector Ship mission unlock), I'll use your 'alternate' idea as a base (because your original one has Legion who would make it 9 squadmates).TheTouch wrote...
I don't know if this has been touched upon in the last 20+ pages, but if I'm reading things right, and if you're trying to complete the game with everybody surviving, but in a short time or just with minimal effort, you can have everybody survive with only 4 people being loyal. You need:
Loyal Tech for the pipes
Loyal Leader for the 2nd squad
Loyal Biotic for the barrier
Loyal Escort for the rescued crew
2x Loyal Squadmates for the final battle
So gaining the loyalty of, say, Legion, Garrus, Samara, and Jack:
Legion goes through the pipes
Garrus commands the 2nd teams
Samara creates the biotic barrier
Jack escorts the rescued crew
You take Legion and Samara to the final battle, and leave Garrus (or Grunt/Zaeed) to Hold the Line alone.
Alternatively
Tali goes through the pipes
Jacob commands the 2nd teams
Jack creates the biotic barrier
Mordin escorts the rescued crew
Take Tali and Jack to the final battle, leave Jacob (or Garrus/Grunt/Zaeed) to Hold the Line alone.
--edit--
Or do the timings mean that you can get away with 3 loyal members? Can you reuse one of the specialists to be the escort?
Loyal = Tali, Jacob, Jack and Mordin
Non-Loyal = Miranda, Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed (former 2 have to recruit, latter 2 are easy to recruit as have to do Grunts mission even if don't 'birth' him and Zaeed can just speak to)
All Ship upgraded (need to speak to Garrus before Horizon to ensure can get the cannon upgrade)
Vent - Tali
Biotic - Jack
Escort - Mordin
TL both times - Jacob
Final Battle - Tali and Jack
HtL - Grunt, Garrus, Zaeed, Jacob and Miranda = 12pts/5 = 2.4 = everyone lives
If you want to recruit everyone and get everyone out alive, then your looking at about 7 loyal required
Here is a rundown of such a playthrough
Loyal Tali, Jack, Mordin, Garrus, Miranda, Thane and Jacob (oh look all the LIs + 1 extra
Vents+1stTL - Tali + Garrus (or Miranda or Jacob)
Biotic - Jack
2nd TL - Same as 1stTL (or any of the other 2 potential TLs)
Escort - Mordin
FB - Jack + Tali
HtL - Garrus, Miranda, Thane, Jacob, Kasumi, Zaeed, Grunt, Samara, Legion = 18pts/9= average score 2 = everyone lives.
Obviously there are other combinations but this one would be neatly suited for both Male/FemShep that want full choice of romance.
#565
Posté 04 décembre 2010 - 05:22
He's too self-centered. Last time he was running a group, they turned on him, because he apparently lacks the leadership ability to command loyalty. On top of that, on most of his mercenary dealings, a LOT of people have died.
And you want him to lead a delicate operation that could very well decide the fate of the galaxy? Really?
I'd definitely pick Miranda and/or Jacob over Zaeed. And I'm not even a big fan of Jacob.
#566
Posté 04 décembre 2010 - 09:18
LPPrince wrote...
Even the developers have explained why Zaeed's a bad leader.
He's too self-centered. Last time he was running a group, they turned on him, because he apparently lacks the leadership ability to command loyalty.
That was only revealed in the files of Shadow Broker and even then, the files tell us of "interpersonal conflicts". I don't see how that means he is a bad leader. The narrative never stated what happened in his conflict with Vido and the Blue Suns.
On top of that, on most of his mercenary dealings, a LOT of people have died.
And? People die all the time on missions, especially suicide missions, which Zaeed has done plenty. He's even lucky to get a few people out of there alive. Of course in ME2 the suicide mission was so unrealistically easy which is Bioware's fault.
Heck, he's pretty much the only one with experience on suicide missions. Plus he's a capable soldier... why wouldn't I want him to lead, especially since no one looks like they could do the job?
The only person I would perhaps consider as a nice leader is Garrus and even then, the narrative shows he isn't flawless.
And you want him to lead a delicate operation that could very well decide the fate of the galaxy? Really?
I'd definitely pick Miranda and/or Jacob over Zaeed. And I'm not even a big fan of Jacob.
The game has shown no proof of Jacob and Miranda's leader skills. In fact, Jacob looks like the standard soldier to me, Miranda doesn't show any leadership skills either + half the crew hates her. Garrus states this before doing the vents part. How would that make a good leader? At least Zaeed shows some neutrality among the crew.
#567
Posté 04 décembre 2010 - 11:07
Modifié par Pacifien, 04 décembre 2010 - 11:08 .
#568
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 09:13
Everyone gets out alive. Whether I dislike them or not.
#569
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 09:21
Da_Lion_Man wrote...
The game has shown no proof of Jacob and Miranda's leader skills. In fact, Jacob looks like the standard soldier to me, Miranda doesn't show any leadership skills either + half the crew hates her. Garrus states this before doing the vents part. How would that make a good leader? At least Zaeed shows some neutrality among the crew.
Miranda was project leader for the Lazarus Project, and given her close contact with the Illusive Man, that wasn't a one-time occurrence.
Jacob was basically second in command and head of security on the Lazarus Research Station.
#570
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 09:45
JediMB wrote...
Miranda was project leader for the Lazarus Project, and given her close contact with the Illusive Man, that wasn't a one-time occurrence.
But that's not a combat situation. She also lost an entire space station and got betrayed by Wilson. I didn't find it a very good indication. She always struck me as TIM's right hand but nothing more.
Jacob was basically second in command and head of security on the Lazarus Research Station.
When was this stated? I don't remember this at all. And head of security can mean a number of things, doesn't necessarily mean he would make a good combat leader. I mean, when the station got attacked everybody got confused and disoriented, I don't think something like that would happen if you have a good leader?
#571
Posté 06 décembre 2010 - 12:26
Da_Lion_Man wrote...
JediMB wrote...
Miranda was project leader for the Lazarus Project, and given her close contact with the Illusive Man, that wasn't a one-time occurrence.
But that's not a combat situation. She also lost an entire space station and got betrayed by Wilson. I didn't find it a very good indication. She always struck me as TIM's right hand but nothing more.Jacob was basically second in command and head of security on the Lazarus Research Station.
When was this stated? I don't remember this at all. And head of security can mean a number of things, doesn't necessarily mean he would make a good combat leader. I mean, when the station got attacked everybody got confused and disoriented, I don't think something like that would happen if you have a good leader?
Jacob was also an officer in the Alliance military. Officers are trained to be leaders. He has plenty of battlefield experience with the Alliance, Corsairs and his exploits in Mass Effect Galaxy. He's arguably the most level headed person on Shephard's squad which is another plus. He's leadership material.
#572
Posté 06 décembre 2010 - 12:32
CC-Tron wrote...
Da_Lion_Man wrote...
JediMB wrote...
Miranda was project leader for the Lazarus Project, and given her close contact with the Illusive Man, that wasn't a one-time occurrence.
But that's not a combat situation. She also lost an entire space station and got betrayed by Wilson. I didn't find it a very good indication. She always struck me as TIM's right hand but nothing more.Jacob was basically second in command and head of security on the Lazarus Research Station.
When was this stated? I don't remember this at all. And head of security can mean a number of things, doesn't necessarily mean he would make a good combat leader. I mean, when the station got attacked everybody got confused and disoriented, I don't think something like that would happen if you have a good leader?
Jacob was also an officer in the Alliance military. Officers are trained to be leaders. He has plenty of battlefield experience with the Alliance, Corsairs and his exploits in Mass Effect Galaxy. He's arguably the most level headed person on Shephard's squad which is another plus. He's leadership material.
But Zaeed also had training in the Alliance military and battlefield experience. That isn't enough proof IMO. I skipped Mass Effect Galaxy and so did a lot of people I think. Maybe he is leadership material but it isn't very obvious to me.
#573
Posté 06 décembre 2010 - 12:45
Da_Lion_Man wrote...
CC-Tron wrote...
Da_Lion_Man wrote...
JediMB wrote...
Miranda was project leader for the Lazarus Project, and given her close contact with the Illusive Man, that wasn't a one-time occurrence.
But that's not a combat situation. She also lost an entire space station and got betrayed by Wilson. I didn't find it a very good indication. She always struck me as TIM's right hand but nothing more.Jacob was basically second in command and head of security on the Lazarus Research Station.
When was this stated? I don't remember this at all. And head of security can mean a number of things, doesn't necessarily mean he would make a good combat leader. I mean, when the station got attacked everybody got confused and disoriented, I don't think something like that would happen if you have a good leader?
Jacob was also an officer in the Alliance military. Officers are trained to be leaders. He has plenty of battlefield experience with the Alliance, Corsairs and his exploits in Mass Effect Galaxy. He's arguably the most level headed person on Shephard's squad which is another plus. He's leadership material.
But Zaeed also had training in the Alliance military and battlefield experience. That isn't enough proof IMO. I skipped Mass Effect Galaxy and so did a lot of people I think. Maybe he is leadership material but it isn't very obvious to me.
Zaeed was not an officer in the Alliance. He's was a mercenary and bounty hunter who took part in military operations likely as a hired gun. The game made the choices for leaders pretty easy. I knew Zaeed wasn't a good leader when he lost leadership of the Blue Suns. Other than that loss there were no other leadership highlights in his career. Many battles but no good leadership.
Modifié par CC-Tron, 06 décembre 2010 - 12:47 .
#574
Posté 06 décembre 2010 - 12:53
CC-Tron wrote...
Zaeed was not an officer in the Alliance. He's was a mercenary and bounty hunter who took part in military operations likely as a hired gun. The game made the choices for leaders pretty easy. I knew Zaeed wasn't a good leader when he lost leadership of the Blue Suns. Other than that loss there were no other leadership highlights in his career. Many battles but no good leadership.
But not being a good leader because of his betrayal is just an assumption. Garrus and Miranda got betrayed too and the game considers them viable leaders. I also remember him saying he had alliance training. Maybe not one of an officer but it's still something.
And his stories don't really disprove his leadership skills either. We don't know the difficulty of those missions. He's just telling some of his more memorable/harder battles, in that case it's pretty obvious people were going to die. Some of them were even suicide missions, people are definitely going to die in those missions. The fact that he even got some of them alive out there is an achievement by itself.
At least I knew he could function well in a suicide mission because he has done plenty, can't say the same for the rest of the crew.
You're probably thinking I'm talking rubbish, but that's how I interpreted the storyline.
#575
Posté 06 décembre 2010 - 01:26
Da_Lion_Man wrote...
CC-Tron wrote...
Zaeed was not an officer in the Alliance. He's was a mercenary and bounty hunter who took part in military operations likely as a hired gun. The game made the choices for leaders pretty easy. I knew Zaeed wasn't a good leader when he lost leadership of the Blue Suns. Other than that loss there were no other leadership highlights in his career. Many battles but no good leadership.
But not being a good leader because of his betrayal is just an assumption. Garrus and Miranda got betrayed too and the game considers them viable leaders. I also remember him saying he had alliance training. Maybe not one of an officer but it's still something.
And his stories don't really disprove his leadership skills either. We don't know the difficulty of those missions. He's just telling some of his more memorable/harder battles, in that case it's pretty obvious people were going to die. Some of them were even suicide missions, people are definitely going to die in those missions. The fact that he even got some of them alive out there is an achievement by itself.
At least I knew he could function well in a suicide mission because he has done plenty, can't say the same for the rest of the crew.
You're probably thinking I'm talking rubbish, but that's how I interpreted the storyline.
Actually I understand why one would consider Zaeed based on battle experience alone. I thought there were clearly better choices in leadership expertise though.
I narrowed it down to Miranda, Jacob and Garrus the first time I played. I discounted Garrus only because of his bad experience with his merc band on Omega. Miranda's passive skill 'Cerberus leader' is a dead give away that she's qualified but she came across as too arrogant for her own good. I chose Jacob because of his officer experience and he's the most trusted on my squad.




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