713 réponses à ce sujet

[Da_Lion_Man]

CC-Tron wrote...

Actually I understand why one would consider Zaeed based on battle experience alone.  I thought there were clearly better choices in leadership expertise though.

I narrowed it down to Miranda, Jacob and Garrus the first time I played.  I discounted Garrus only because of his bad experience with his merc band on Omega. Miranda's passive skill 'Cerberus leader' is a dead give away that she's qualified but she came across as too arrogant for her own good. I chose Jacob because of his officer experience and he's the most trusted on my squad.

I narrowed it down on Garrus and Zaeed. It was a tough decision but all things considered, I still picked Zaeed. Sadly the game didn't agree with me. Oh well, sucks for me.

I don't think the passive skill is a good indication though, I mean, Jacob's passive skill is "barrier" yet he's bad at creating a barrier in the Biotic Barrier part. One of Grunt passive skills is "Krogan Warlord" so that would make him a good leader too if we're basing this on passive skills.

I never saw too much in Jacob to be honest. I liked how he was the most down-to-earth of all squad members but I had no idea how I could make someone like him work for a role in the suicide mission.

Modifié par Da_Lion_Man, 06 décembre 2010 - 01:38 .

[JediMB]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

JediMB wrote...

Miranda was project leader for the Lazarus Project, and given her close contact with the Illusive Man, that wasn't a one-time occurrence.

But that's not a combat situation. She also lost an entire space station and got betrayed by Wilson. I didn't find it a very good indication. She always struck me as TIM's right hand but nothing more.

Leadership abilities and combat experience separately might just be enough to make a good leader in combat.

As for Wilson's betrayal, it's like Sidonis' betrayal of Garrus. The rest of the teams were loyal, but those two individuals had their own reasons for betrayal. Sidonis feared that he would be killed by a mercenary syndicate, and Wilson was working for the Shadow Broker.

[Da_Lion_Man]

JediMB wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

JediMB wrote...

Miranda was project leader for the Lazarus Project, and given her close contact with the Illusive Man, that wasn't a one-time occurrence.

But that's not a combat situation. She also lost an entire space station and got betrayed by Wilson. I didn't find it a very good indication. She always struck me as TIM's right hand but nothing more.

Leadership abilities and combat experience separately might just be enough to make a good leader in combat.

As for Wilson's betrayal, it's like Sidonis' betrayal of Garrus. The rest of the teams were loyal, but those two individuals had their own reasons for betrayal. Sidonis feared that he would be killed by a mercenary syndicate, and Wilson was working for the Shadow Broker.

Yes, might. The player doesn't know this for sure.
We don't know much about the betrayal of Vito, the only thing the dossiers mention is "lack of interpersonal skills and political judgment". That can be interpreted in multiple ways.

[LPPrince]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

JediMB wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

JediMB wrote...

Miranda was project leader for the Lazarus Project, and given her close contact with the Illusive Man, that wasn't a one-time occurrence.

But that's not a combat situation. She also lost an entire space station and got betrayed by Wilson. I didn't find it a very good indication. She always struck me as TIM's right hand but nothing more.

Leadership abilities and combat experience separately might just be enough to make a good leader in combat.

As for Wilson's betrayal, it's like Sidonis' betrayal of Garrus. The rest of the teams were loyal, but those two individuals had their own reasons for betrayal. Sidonis feared that he would be killed by a mercenary syndicate, and Wilson was working for the Shadow Broker.

Yes, might. The player doesn't know this for sure.
We don't know much about the betrayal of Vito, the only thing the dossiers mention is "lack of interpersonal skills and political judgment". That can be interpreted in multiple ways.

Like........Zaeed's a bad leader. Which he is.

Miranda, Jacob, and Garrus all make sense. Zaeed, not at all. Someone so self-centered cannot possibly be counted on to get people out alive. Loyal or not.

[Da_Lion_Man]

LPPrince wrote...

Like........Zaeed's a bad leader. Which he is.

Miranda, Jacob, and Garrus all make sense. Zaeed, not at all. Someone so self-centered cannot possibly be counted on to get people out alive. Loyal or not.

But... he did get people out alive in several missions, some of those were even suicide missions. How he got out of there alive and even with some people is an achievement by itself.

Garrus makes sense to me somewhat, the others not so much.

Maybe the game says he's a bad leader, I still don't agree with the game. I also don't agree about the heavy focus on action for example. Heck, in the PC files it was revealed he was supposed to be a good fireteam leader for the first part. Even Miranda pats you on the back if you choose him. So it isn't all that illogical

[CC-Tron]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...

Actually I understand why one would consider Zaeed based on battle experience alone.  I thought there were clearly better choices in leadership expertise though.

I narrowed it down to Miranda, Jacob and Garrus the first time I played.  I discounted Garrus only because of his bad experience with his merc band on Omega. Miranda's passive skill 'Cerberus leader' is a dead give away that she's qualified but she came across as too arrogant for her own good. I chose Jacob because of his officer experience and he's the most trusted on my squad.

I narrowed it down on Garrus and Zaeed. It was a tough decision but all things considered, I still picked Zaeed. Sadly the game didn't agree with me. Oh well, sucks for me.

I don't think the passive skill is a good indication though, I mean, Jacob's passive skill is "barrier" yet he's bad at creating a barrier in the Biotic Barrier part. One of Grunt passive skills is "Krogan Warlord" so that would make him a good leader too if we're basing this on passive skills.

I never saw too much in Jacob to be honest. I liked how he was the most down-to-earth of all squad members but I had no idea how I could make someone like him work for a role in the suicide mission.

Your comparison to Grunt doesn't hold up.

Did you actually read the decription of Grunts passive skill Krogan Warlord? It mentions nothing about leadership. Miranda's passive descriptions are all about taking care of the squad. It mentions things such as 'leadership' and 'No one left behind'. So yeah that's a dead give away that she's a good leader.

Im no Miranda fan....but the words don't lie. It is what it is.

[Da_Lion_Man]

CC-Tron wrote...

Your comparison to Grunt doesn't hold up.

Did you actually read the decription of Grunts passive skill Krogan Warlord? It mentions nothing about leadership. Miranda's passive descriptions are all about taking care of the squad. It mentions things such as 'leadership' and 'No one left behind'. So yeah that's a dead give away that she's a good leader.

Im no Miranda fan....but the words don't lie. It is what it is.

But still, Warlords are supposed to be leader figures. Even if it doesn't 100 % hold up which I admit, basing your choice on the description of a passive skill is a bit too subtle and unreliable, like in Jacob's case.

[CC-Tron]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...

Your comparison to Grunt doesn't hold up.

Did you actually read the decription of Grunts passive skill Krogan Warlord? It mentions nothing about leadership. Miranda's passive descriptions are all about taking care of the squad. It mentions things such as 'leadership' and 'No one left behind'. So yeah that's a dead give away that she's a good leader.

Im no Miranda fan....but the words don't lie. It is what it is.

But still, Warlords are supposed to be leader figures. Even if it doesn't 100 % hold up which I admit, basing your choice on the description of a passive skill is a bit too subtle and unreliable, like in Jacob's case.

No read my previous posts again . I never said I based my leadership choices entirely  on passive skills but in Miranda's case it is valid.  For the others there are other indicators which have been discussed already.

You don't agree with the game because you like Zaeed and prefer him to be a good leadership choice. Fine. However there are several indicators placed in the game on purpose to convince the player Zaeed is a bad choice.

Oh by the way, Warlords tend to rule by intimidation and force (rather than superior leadership ability) which is not necessarily the best for building morale in subordinates.

Modifié par CC-Tron, 06 décembre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Da_Lion_Man]

CC-Tron wrote...

No read my previous posts again . I never said I based my leadership choices entirely  on passive skills but in Miranda's case it is valid.  For the others there are other indicators which have been discussed already.

You don't agree with the game because you like Zaeed and prefer him to be a good leadership choice. Fine. However there are several indicators placed in the game on purpose to convince the player Zaeed is a bad choice.

Oh by the way, Warlords tend to rule by intimidation and force (rather than superior leadership ability) which is not necessarily the best for building morale in subordinates.

Yeah but still, there are also indications that Miranda isn't a good choice. I mean, she's not really popular among the crew. Garrus even states half the crew doesn't even trust her and that certainly shows from what I've seen in my playthrough. Sure she might say it's not a popularity contest but if there are crew members that don't even trust you, I don't expect this to go well. At least Jacob and Zaeed show neutrality and Garrus, well I think everybody likes Garrus so no issues there.

Don't get me wrong, you definitely got a point but to me it seems like the gameplay and narrative are contradicting each other in Miranda's case.

And I don't disagree because I like Zaeed a lot. In fact I like all crew members almost equally aside from Kasumi who I don't like. I just think Zaeed shouldn't be a bad choice, I've already discussed why in my other posts. Maybe Garrus is a more logical and better choice but It's not totally illogical for him to be a leader.

Modifié par Da_Lion_Man, 06 décembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[RiouHotaru]

Zaeed is noted as being a bad leader by his loyalty mission, and his stories. He doesn't seem to care about being a team player, and he was always taking jobs for money. He also never directly states how many of his fellow mercenary compatriots survive the various missions, but I believe the implication is he's the only one who ever comes out.



As for Miranda, it's true, Jack/Garrus do state that they don't trust her, but she obviously has the experience and skill to be a leader. And it's only that one person who states their dislike.

[Da_Lion_Man]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Zaeed is noted as being a bad leader by his loyalty mission, and his stories. He doesn't seem to care about being a team player, and he was always taking jobs for money. He also never directly states how many of his fellow mercenary compatriots survive the various missions, but I believe the implication is he's the only one who ever comes out.

As for Miranda, it's true, Jack/Garrus do state that they don't trust her, but she obviously has the experience and skill to be a leader. And it's only that one person who states their dislike.

People will do the craziest stuff for revenge. Plus if you solve his mission the Paragon way, he agrees on working as a team with you.

The rest is just assumption on your part, something that can be interpreted in multiple ways.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Zaeed is noted as being a bad leader by his loyalty mission, and his stories. He doesn't seem to care about being a team player, and he was always taking jobs for money. He also never directly states how many of his fellow mercenary compatriots survive the various missions, but I believe the implication is he's the only one who ever comes out.

As for Miranda, it's true, Jack/Garrus do state that they don't trust her, but she obviously has the experience and skill to be a leader. And it's only that one person who states their dislike.

People will do the craziest stuff for revenge. Plus if you solve his mission the Paragon way, he agrees on working as a team with you.

The rest is just assumption on your part, something that can be interpreted in multiple ways.

I don't think it has anything to do with her skills the reason why they say it, it is because who she works for mostly. Well when I say they, I mean everyone but Jack, Jack just hates her guts though it is still more to do with her being (in Jack's eyes) a 'Cerberus Cheerleader'.

Garrus when he first comes on board declares his concerns about us working with Cerberus, as does Tali. Samara finds it unusual, as does Mordin and I think Thane does too that Cerberus is wanting 'aliens' to work alongside them, that is where the lack of trust comes from for the most part.

But them not trusting is a whole different ball game to when being out on the field. You can hear the way the 'loyal' trio of good TLs is like over the radio. You can hear the difference to the other squadmates, other squadmates poor leading and getting team bogged down, good leading they are motivating the team as they push through the opposition.

Put it this way, imagine if you let Zaeed lead on his mission. As in, you didn't rail him in like you do at the start of it after he starts hell. You'd be dead by the end of it if not beforehand if you hadn't railed him in. Same applies for Suicide Mission.

Yes if you take the Paragon route he does state he'll work as a team, as a team member sure, but it'd still be lunacy to let him lead.

[Da_Lion_Man]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Zaeed is noted as being a bad leader by his loyalty mission, and his stories. He doesn't seem to care about being a team player, and he was always taking jobs for money. He also never directly states how many of his fellow mercenary compatriots survive the various missions, but I believe the implication is he's the only one who ever comes out.

As for Miranda, it's true, Jack/Garrus do state that they don't trust her, but she obviously has the experience and skill to be a leader. And it's only that one person who states their dislike.

People will do the craziest stuff for revenge. Plus if you solve his mission the Paragon way, he agrees on working as a team with you.

The rest is just assumption on your part, something that can be interpreted in multiple ways.

I don't think it has anything to do with her skills the reason why they say it, it is because who she works for mostly. Well when I say they, I mean everyone but Jack, Jack just hates her guts though it is still more to do with her being (in Jack's eyes) a 'Cerberus Cheerleader'.

Garrus when he first comes on board declares his concerns about us working with Cerberus, as does Tali. Samara finds it unusual, as does Mordin and I think Thane does too that Cerberus is wanting 'aliens' to work alongside them, that is where the lack of trust comes from for the most part.

But them not trusting is a whole different ball game to when being out on the field. You can hear the way the 'loyal' trio of good TLs is like over the radio. You can hear the difference to the other squadmates, other squadmates poor leading and getting team bogged down, good leading they are motivating the team as they push through the opposition.

Put it this way, imagine if you let Zaeed lead on his mission. As in, you didn't rail him in like you do at the start of it after he starts hell. You'd be dead by the end of it if not beforehand if you hadn't railed him in. Same applies for Suicide Mission.

Yes if you take the Paragon route he does state he'll work as a team, as a team member sure, but it'd still be lunacy to let him lead.

How do you know we'd be dead? I mean, he seemed pretty calm to me for someone who's so close to revenge. It is only when he sees Vito he gets really angry and loses all control. It's not that bad, you make it sound like he doesn't know what he's doing at all times but I don't believe that's true at all.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

As in, you didn't rail him in like you do at the start of it after he starts hell. You'd be dead by the end of it if not beforehand if you hadn't railed him in.

As I said before, it's when he sees Vito that am talking about, when he starts blowing stuff up and Shep puts him in his place. Imagine if Shep wasn't there to put him in his place. Team Zaeed with would be dead, possibly he would too.

[Da_Lion_Man]

Ah okay, I misunderstood wha you were saying, my bad.



Alright, he made a mistake there. But should that immediately disqualify him as a leader? I think that's a bit harsh, all the other good leaders made mistakes too.

I personally think he should be a good leader if you solve his mission the Paragon way. If not, that would be highly debatable,



(Still can't believe I'm talking about this, we talked about it in 2 pages or so?)

[iOverRateD]

Wow, i never seen this till now...



I haven't been here in awhile, but this was a cool little guide.. Glad on my 1st play through i had all survived, and all my other play throughs used the same team leaders

[Zrooper]

Pacifien wrote...

Pulls Shepard onto the Normandy
Note: Squadmates need to be in Shepard's squad for the final battle. If one dies, the other pulls Shepard up. If both die, a survivor from the defense will pull Shepard up.
Miranda -> Zaeed -> Kasumi -> Tali -> Jacob -> Mordin -> Samara -> Grunt -> Legion -> Garrus -> Jack -> Thane

Actually when I played it was Joker who pulled me up and shot the remaining collectors...

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

@Zrooper video or it didn't happen most likely a glitch. If Joker is the only one there you would've died.

I've been working on an idea of what the 'Default ME3 Shep' might be like. From what we know of 'Default ME2 Shep' they were neutral/bottom right choices in renegade and generally didn't speak to anyone that didn't have to, as a means for the devs having to avoid explaining to people who some of the NPCs were (this was explained in the old forums by a dev, well the latter part anyway, but most of us have now assumed as for convos went, it was neutral/bottom right).

So using Default ME2 Shep as a starter, I believe Default ME3 Shep, doesn't do DLC, doesn't do sidequests, does loyalty missions but in conversations will pick the neutral/bottom right choices, does the ship upgrades (because it is part of the mission). But then he listens to people volunteering for things... Anyway this is how the squad will be in this instance
Loyal
Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Thane, Mordin,
Non-Loyal
Jack - bottom right choice in catfight is siding with Miranda
Tali - bottom right choice in trial is handing the evidence in, neutral 'Rally Crowd' response won't be there because Shep sent Veetor to Cerberus and Kal possibly dead.
Samara - neutral/bottom right choices when speaking to Morinth would lead to her leaving
Not-recruited
Grunt - neutral/bottom right choice when at his lifepod leads to Shep not opening it
Legion - bottom right choice is sending to cerberus (no neutral choice)

Vents - "Practically a Suicide Mission, I volunteer" ok Jacob
TL - Miranda
Biotic - "*insert Samara's spiel about being able to do this*" Samara
2nd TL - Miranda
Escort - None, bottom right choice is to leave Crew to make own way, no neutral response, Crew dead
Biotic Team - Due to Samara being non-loyal (and so is Jack), someone has to die here, so might as well be numero uno on the list, bye Thane
Final Battle - Miranda and Garrus (oh look a potential LI for Male/Fem Shep)
Hold The Line - Mordin, Samara, Tali, Jack
HTL score - 2/4 = 0.5 = 2 Squadmates dead, bye Tali and Jack

Surviving Squad Members - Miranda, Garrus, Mordin and Samara, latter most likely gone by start of ME3 due to still searching for her daughter, not sure bout the rest.
Oh and... Base was saved, because that's bottom right choice

So that means, going into ME3, Default ME3 Shep has...
Saved the base, killed the Rachni, screwed up the Quarians, killed Wrex (and most of their ME2 squad), killed same sex out of Ash/Kai at Virmire, got Udina as Councillor, killed Alien council, erased genophage data, let a mass murdering ardat yakshi get away and possibly some other things I've forgotten... oh and let Elnora get away because never went in the room she was in on Samara's recruitment mission.

I could be wrong, but If my prediction is right, Default ME3 Shep is one nasty person. I'm actually tempted to do this as a playthrough on PS3 next month.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 20 décembre 2010 - 01:31 .

[Da_Lion_Man]

It doesn't really make sense to pick Jacob for Tech expert. Yes he says he volunteers but Miranda interrupts saying we need a Tech expert instead, implying Jacob won't cut it for this task. Why would one still pick Jacob for this task, coming from a logical POV?

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

It doesn't really make sense to pick Jacob for Tech expert. Yes he says he volunteers but Miranda interrupts saying we need a Tech expert instead, implying Jacob won't cut it for this task. Why would one still pick Jacob for this task, coming from a logical POV?

Ignoring logic for a moment, they aren't going to explain who did what. I'm just giving an idea of how it could explain how who survived did so. The only thing is, it is most likely Default ME3 Shep isn't going to see Samara at all because she's off hunting for her daughter.

So basically the only potential run-ins would be Garrus, Miranda and Mordin for Default ME3 Shep (if my theory is right).

The way I am trying to look at it, is a way in which 1 potential LI makes it out. The interesting thing to note is in this instance, Miranda is the only female LI loyal and that is due to the fact the option to side with her is bottom right (default shep don't do paragon/renegade stuff). As I said, IF default Shep had not sent Veetor to Cerberus I would assume they'd have it so Kal was alive (of course it is downright impossible to get him killed on easy/normal, I know because I've done it and that was after I had to get my squadmates killed and have Shep bunker down near the back till he died). Actually... that just made me think. If he is alive but we still send Veetor to Cerberus can we still 'rally crowd' or is it only available if he alive AND veetor wasn't sent?

Because if it can be done with just Kal, then that would mean Tali can be loyal via 'rally crowd' option, which means she can go in the vents, stay alive, and then both her and Jacob live at the end with only Jack dying on the HtL team.

So we end up with 2 LIs, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus and Tali... with Mordin alive as well and Samara off somewhere looking for her daughter. That of course is all going on the theory that the crowd can be rallied with just Kal.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Actually... that just made me think. If he is alive but we still send Veetor to Cerberus can we still 'rally crowd' or is it only available if he alive AND veetor wasn't sent?
 

No.  If you send Veetor to Cerberus, you won't be able to rally the crowd.

[FoxShadowblade]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

But... he did get people out alive in several missions, some of those were even suicide missions. How he got out of there alive and even with some people is an achievement by itself.

Garrus makes sense to me somewhat, the others not so much.

Maybe the game says he's a bad leader, I still don't agree with the game. I also don't agree about the heavy focus on action for example. Heck, in the PC files it was revealed he was supposed to be a good fireteam leader for the first part. Even Miranda pats you on the back if you choose him. So it isn't all that illogical

Zaeed pretty much tells you that he's gone on dozens of suicide missions, and he saved his own ass and got out alive. = Bad Leader. And how can you disagree with the game? The game decides what is what. Not saying Zaeed wouldn't be a good fireteam leader, I thought to pick him too, but trusted Garrus more with the squad than him.

[Bullets McDeath]

Hey everyone,



This is a great guide! I looked through a few pages but I am running low on time and have a question regarding squadmate deaths during the "Through The Omega 4 Relay" cutscene. If you do not get an upgrade, does that mean ALL the squadmates on the list will die, if eligible? Or only one will die per missed upgrade?



I hope that question makes sense. Thanks again for the guide, it was great help.

[Da_Lion_Man]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

But... he did get people out alive in several missions, some of those were even suicide missions. How he got out of there alive and even with some people is an achievement by itself.

Garrus makes sense to me somewhat, the others not so much.

Maybe the game says he's a bad leader, I still don't agree with the game. I also don't agree about the heavy focus on action for example. Heck, in the PC files it was revealed he was supposed to be a good fireteam leader for the first part. Even Miranda pats you on the back if you choose him. So it isn't all that illogical

Zaeed pretty much tells you that he's gone on dozens of suicide missions, and he saved his own ass and got out alive. = Bad Leader. And how can you disagree with the game? The game decides what is what. Not saying Zaeed wouldn't be a good fireteam leader, I thought to pick him too, but trusted Garrus more with the squad than him.

Not this again...
Not enough proof, the fact that he survived so many suicide missions is an achievement in itself. He still got people out alive in some missions, I consider that a miracle. A normal person with leadership skills would have died a long time ago. Zaeed's stories are far too open for different interpretations.

Besides he's the only crew member who has noteworthy knowledge on suicide missions. I had no idea on how the rest would function under the conditions of a suicide mission.

And I disagree with the game because I can. If I think a part of the game is rubbish, I am free to think that. Just like people dislike the Mako sections of ME1.

I'm pretty much done discussing this matter, someone should make a topic about but for now I'm done.

Modifié par Da_Lion_Man, 21 décembre 2010 - 11:45 .

[Da_Lion_Man]

outlaworacle wrote...

Hey everyone,

This is a great guide! I looked through a few pages but I am running low on time and have a question regarding squadmate deaths during the "Through The Omega 4 Relay" cutscene. If you do not get an upgrade, does that mean ALL the squadmates on the list will die, if eligible? Or only one will die per missed upgrade?

I hope that question makes sense. Thanks again for the guide, it was great help.

There are 3 upgrades required to get through the Omega 4 relay safely. Per upgrade you didn't buy, you'll lose 1 squad member. So if you didn't upgrade anything, you'll lose a maximum of 3 squad members.