713 réponses à ce sujet

[Sursion]

Oh, and also, I can confirm that Grunt comes before Samara during the seeker swarm priority list, not after. Their places should be switched.

[IoCaster]

Has anyone gotten four dead on the line?

I left non-loyal Tali, Jack, Kasumi and Mordin on the line by themselves for a HtL score of 0.0 and Jack still survived. I had a loyal Zaeed escort and loyal Miranda, Samara on my squad for the T-Reaper. So I should have had only three loyal survivors with Zaeed, Miranda and Samara, but Jack survived. There's some other factor at play here that isn't being accounted for.

[Ecael]

IoCaster wrote...

Has anyone gotten four dead on the line?

I left non-loyal Tali, Jack, Kasumi and Mordin on the line by themselves for a HtL score of 0.0 and Jack still survived. I had a loyal Zaeed escort and loyal Miranda, Samara on my squad for the T-Reaper. So I should have had only three loyal survivors with Zaeed, Miranda and Samara, but Jack survived. There's some other factor at play here that isn't being accounted for.

The only time I got four dead was killing off the two unloyals at the boss (with the squadmates listed above). So it does seem like the number of loyals from the escort/final boss squadmates is influencing the point values.

This mission just got a lot more complicated...

[Pacifien]

Well, I suppose the only thing I do know for certain is that a squadmate gets +1 for being loyal and they're grouped together in three separate groups.

Tier 1: Garrus, Grunt, Zaeed
Tier 2: Jacob, Legion, Miranda, Samara, Thane
Tier 3: Jack, Kasumi, Mordin, Tali

Factors I assume alter the outcome:
1) What tier they're in - stronger the better
2) How many squadmates from each tier are at the defense - more from Tier 3 will lead to a greater number of deaths than having more from Tier 2
3) How many squadmates are loyal

[Sursion]

Ecael wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Has anyone gotten four dead on the line?

I left non-loyal Tali, Jack, Kasumi and Mordin on the line by themselves for a HtL score of 0.0 and Jack still survived. I had a loyal Zaeed escort and loyal Miranda, Samara on my squad for the T-Reaper. So I should have had only three loyal survivors with Zaeed, Miranda and Samara, but Jack survived. There's some other factor at play here that isn't being accounted for.

The only time I got four dead was killing off the two unloyals at the boss (with the squadmates listed above). So it does seem like the number of loyals from the escort/final boss squadmates is influencing the point values.

This mission just got a lot more complicated...

Indeed. I've brought non loyal crew to the end boss and left unloyal tali, mordin, jack, kasumi at the line. It only showed three dead bodies, but all four of them died.

[Ecael]

Sursion wrote...

Ecael wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Has anyone gotten four dead on the line?

I left non-loyal Tali, Jack, Kasumi and Mordin on the line by themselves for a HtL score of 0.0 and Jack still survived. I had a loyal Zaeed escort and loyal Miranda, Samara on my squad for the T-Reaper. So I should have had only three loyal survivors with Zaeed, Miranda and Samara, but Jack survived. There's some other factor at play here that isn't being accounted for.

The only time I got four dead was killing off the two unloyals at the boss (with the squadmates listed above). So it does seem like the number of loyals from the escort/final boss squadmates is influencing the point values.

This mission just got a lot more complicated...

Indeed. I've brought non loyal crew to the end boss and left unloyal tali, mordin, jack, kasumi at the line. It only showed three dead bodies, but all four of them died.

Hmm... maybe the game assumes that everyone died even if Jack survives (with everyone else dead) because they couldn't fit Jack's corpse in that cutscene?

So the only time those 4 specific squadmates will actually die is if everyone else, including squadmates at boss and escort, is dead.

[IoCaster]

My objective was to test that the 0.0 HtL score would result in four deaths on the line. Here's the setup that I used.

Legion sold off to Cerberus.
Grunt marinating in his baby tube.
All ship upgrades done. No deaths on approach to Collector Base.
Right before the Suicide Mission I used GSE and un-loyaled everyone except Zaeed, Miranda and Samara.
Thane did the vent and ate a rocket.
Garrus gut-shot as 2nd team leader.
Jacob got swarmed.
Tali, Jack, Kasumi and Mordin HtL squad.
Zaeed as escort.
Samara and Miranda on personal squad for the T-Reaper.
Everything worked as planned except that Jack survived the HtL mission.

I had reasoned that the required minimum of two surviving squad mates would affect the outcome on the line. That's why I made sure that I used a loyal Zaeed for escort thinking that the game would count that toward my minimum score of survivors before the final boss mission. With two loyal sidekicks at the baby Reaper, I had my bases covered and there should not have been any reason that the game would manipulate the outcome at the HtL segment. At least, that's what I thought going in and I was very surprised when I got back to the Normandy and found out that Jack had survived. The end result is that a HtL score of 0.0 does not guarantee four dead on the line. Obviously, there are other factors or variables in play and further testing is needed.

[Ecael]

IoCaster wrote...

My objective was to test that the 0.0 HtL score would result in four deaths on the line. Here's the setup that I used.

Legion sold off to Cerberus.
Grunt marinating in his baby tube.
All ship upgrades done. No deaths on approach to Collector Base.
Right before the Suicide Mission I used GSE and un-loyaled everyone except Zaeed, Miranda and Samara.
Thane did the vent and ate a rocket.
Garrus gut-shot as 2nd team leader.
Jacob got swarmed.
Tali, Jack, Kasumi and Mordin HtL squad.
Zaeed as escort.
Samara and Miranda on personal squad for the T-Reaper.
Everything worked as planned except that Jack survived the HtL mission.

I had reasoned that the required minimum of two surviving squad mates would affect the outcome on the line. That's why I made sure that I used a loyal Zaeed for escort thinking that the game would count that toward my minimum score of survivors before the final boss mission. With two loyal sidekicks at the baby Reaper, I had my bases covered and there should not have been any reason that the game would manipulate the outcome at the HtL segment. At least, that's what I thought going in and I was very surprised when I got back to the Normandy and found out that Jack had survived. The end result is that a HtL score of 0.0 does not guarantee four dead on the line. Obviously, there are other factors or variables in play and further testing is needed.

Looks like it only occurs on a Shepard dies playthrough then (since the hold the line death screen has a maximum of 3 corpses, technically speaking).

Editing original post.

[IoCaster]

Ecael wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

My objective was to test that the 0.0 HtL score would result in four deaths on the line. Here's the setup that I used.

Legion sold off to Cerberus.
Grunt marinating in his baby tube.
All ship upgrades done. No deaths on approach to Collector Base.
Right before the Suicide Mission I used GSE and un-loyaled everyone except Zaeed, Miranda and Samara.
Thane did the vent and ate a rocket.
Garrus gut-shot as 2nd team leader.
Jacob got swarmed.
Tali, Jack, Kasumi and Mordin HtL squad.
Zaeed as escort.
Samara and Miranda on personal squad for the T-Reaper.
Everything worked as planned except that Jack survived the HtL mission.

I had reasoned that the required minimum of two surviving squad mates would affect the outcome on the line. That's why I made sure that I used a loyal Zaeed for escort thinking that the game would count that toward my minimum score of survivors before the final boss mission. With two loyal sidekicks at the baby Reaper, I had my bases covered and there should not have been any reason that the game would manipulate the outcome at the HtL segment. At least, that's what I thought going in and I was very surprised when I got back to the Normandy and found out that Jack had survived. The end result is that a HtL score of 0.0 does not guarantee four dead on the line. Obviously, there are other factors or variables in play and further testing is needed.

Looks like it only occurs on a Shepard dies playthrough then (since the hold the line death screen has a maximum of 3 corpses, technically speaking).

Editing original post.

I think that you're probably right, but I'm going to try a couple of other variations when I get the chance. If it's a simple matter of limited screen real estate for displaying the dead that would be disappointing.



EDIT: One other interesting result that I wanted to share. I took a loyal Garrus and non-loyal Zaeed with me on the Biotic bubble mission in a previous game. I used a non-loyal Jack for the shield and expected Zaeed to get swarmed. Unfortunately, they grabbed Garrus instead even though he was loyal. I was surprised and pissed like you wouldn't believe when that happened. I did it three times with reloads and I'm almost positive that they swapped positions (left, right on the HUD) at least once without effecting the outcome. The swarm just refused to take non-loyal Zaeed for some reason when he was paired with loyal Garrus. I ended up swapping Miranda in for Garrus and finally got Zaeed hauled off by the swarm. I'm at a loss to try and explain how the hell that happened or what it means.

Modifié par IoCaster, 06 juillet 2010 - 01:10 .

[Pacifien]

Yeah, Miranda is the default choice to obtain a specific Seeker Swarm death.

If you look at the original post, Ecael has a list for the order in which squadmates are taken. This is regardless of their loyalty. A loyal Thane will always be taken before a nonloyal Jack.

ETA: Oh, maybe Ecael should note that the squadmates will follow that Seeker Swarm list regardless of loyalty?

Regarding the HtL deaths, I really think there is something to which Tier the squadmates happen to belong. For instance, get 4 of the Tier 3 squadmates together, nonloyal, then 3 of them will die. I had 4 of the Tier 2 squadmates together, nonloyal, and only 2 of them died. If you had all 3 of the Tier 1 squadmates, nonloyal, holding the line, will they all come out alive or will 1 die?

Modifié par Pacifien, 06 juillet 2010 - 02:10 .

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

Yeah, Miranda is the default choice to obtain a specific Seeker Swarm death.

If you look at the original post, Ecael has a list for the order in which squadmates are taken. This is regardless of their loyalty. A loyal Thane will always be taken before a nonloyal Jack.

ETA: Oh, maybe Ecael should note that the squadmates will follow that Seeker Swarm list regardless of loyalty?

Edited.

[IoCaster]

Pacifien wrote...

Yeah, Miranda is the default choice to obtain a specific Seeker Swarm death.

If you look at the original post, Ecael has a list for the order in which squadmates are taken. This is regardless of their loyalty. A loyal Thane will always be taken before a nonloyal Jack.

ETA: Oh, maybe Ecael should note that the squadmates will follow that Seeker Swarm list regardless of loyalty?

I wasn't aware that the loyalty 'flag' didn't offer any protection from the swarm. It seems kind of odd actually, but it's a small inconvenience and easily worked around.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Weird. I went to hold the line with Loyal Mordin, Loyal Legion, Loyal Morinth, and Unloyal Tali and only tali died. I didn't send an escort and loyal zaeed and loyal miranda were my boss team. shouldn't mordin AND tali have died in that situation? Why only tali?

[Pacifien]

Tali was unloyal, so she would have died first. I know the average score was low enough that the guide says Mordin should have also died, but the last couple of pages of this thread have shown that the average score is wrong. I think Ecael would do better to simply say "testing still in progress" or whatnot for the actual scores.

[Bebbe777]

Seems I need to take Kasumi with me on the boss fight to keep the firing line in check.

[Gibb_Garrus]

 PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!!

I have activated the loyalty mission for samara, but havent yet gone to omega to complete it. Does this mean that i have done 1 mission before the omega relay? Even though i havent gone to omega to deal with her daughter?

[Pacifien]

Gibb_Garrus wrote...
 PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!!

I have activated the loyalty mission for samara, but havent yet gone to omega to complete it. Does this mean that i have done 1 mission before the omega relay? Even though i havent gone to omega to deal with her daughter?

I take it your crew has already been taken?

Agreeing to help Samara with her mission doesn't mean you've done it yet, so it doesn't count. You can even do the suicide mission and then finish her mission afterwards. Just be sure not to use Samara for your Biotic Shield or take her with you to the final battle. Hopefully you have the right people to Hold the Line so she'll survive.

[Gibb_Garrus]

Pacifien wrote...

Gibb_Garrus wrote...
 PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!!

I have activated the loyalty mission for samara, but havent yet gone to omega to complete it. Does this mean that i have done 1 mission before the omega relay? Even though i havent gone to omega to deal with her daughter?

I take it your crew has already been taken?


Agreeing to help Samara with her mission doesn't mean you've done it yet, so it doesn't count. You can even do the suicide mission and then finish her mission afterwards. Just be sure not to use Samara for your Biotic Shield or take her with you to the final battle. Hopefully you have the right people to Hold the Line so she'll survive.

No they havent, when exactly does the crew get taken? Is it time related or triggered by your go ahead? Because if i have time i would really like to get legion and samara loyal.

[Pacifien]

If you haven't gotten Legion yet, feel free to do every loyalty mission you'd like without fear of consequences. Getting Legion (actually, getting the IFF) is what triggers the timer on how much time you have left before consequences start to rear their ugly head.

[Pacifien]

Ecael wrote...
Thanks for FieryPhoenix7 for the embedded soundtrack!*snip*

Aw, I was so convinced the soundtrack was going to be the Mission Impossible theme.

[Pacifien]

I have a new science project to figure out more about how the Hold the Line equation works. I think Ecael's on the right track that the tier level has something to do with it. So what I've gathered from the thread so far:

L - loyal | uL - unloyal
Tier 1: Garrus, Grunt, Zaeed
Tier 2: Jacob, Legion, Miranda, Samara/Morinth, Thane
Tier 3: Jack, Kasumi, Mordin, Tali

uL Legion + uL Miranda + uL Samara
     - 3 unloyal Tier 2
     - 1 dies (Miranda) | 2 live

uL Jacob + uL Miranda + uL Samara
     - 3 uLl Tier 2
     - 1 dies (Miranda) | 2 live

uL Jacob + uL Legion + uL Samara
     - 3 uL Tier 2
     - 1 dies (Jacob) | 2 live

uL Jack + uL Kasumi + uL Miranda + L Mordin + L Tali + uL Thane
     - 2 uL Tier 2, 2 uL Tier 3, 2 L Tier 3
     - 3 die (Jack, Kasumi, Miranda) | 3 live

uL Miranda + uL Mordin + uL Tali
     - 1 uL Tier 2, 2 uL Tier 3
     - 2 die (Mordin, Tali) | 1 lives

uL Jacob + uL Legion + uL Miranda + uL Samara
     - 4 uL Tier 2
     - 2 die (Jacob, Miranda) | 2 live

L Jack + L Mordin + L Tali
     - 3 L Tier 3
     - 1 dies (Mordin) | 2 live

L Jack + L Tali
     - 2 L Tier 3
     - 1 dies (Tali) | 1 lives

uL Jack + uL Kasumi + uL Miranda + L Mordin + uL Samara + L Tali + uL Thane + uL Zaeed
     - 1 uL Tier 1, 3 uL Tier 2, 2 uL Tier 3, 2 L Tier 3
     - 3 die (Jack, Kasumi, Miranda) | 5 live

uL Jack + uL Kasumi + uL Mordin + uL Tali
     - 4 uL Tier 3
     - 3 die (Mordin, Tali, Kasumi) | 1 lives

1) It would appear you can only get 4 squadmates to die when the mission is a bloodbath and Shepard is doomed to die. So no matter what combination you go for, you'll never get more than 3 to die.
2) I also suspect that no matter what combination you use, unless we're going on a Shepard dies playthrough, you'll have at least one survivor. Has anyone had the entire HtL crew die when Shepard happens to live?

Actually, if the answer to that second point is no, that would explain the discrepency in all these results right there.

[FourSixEight]

I'd just like to post to thank everyone that contributed to this guide- I'm doing two final playthroughs, and on my first, I found out through reloading that Tali would have died had I not followed the math regarding the 'Hold the Line' segment.

Modifié par FourSixEight, 08 juillet 2010 - 07:27 .

[Graz73]

OK, this is a very interesting thread, and I've read most of it.



I'd like to see some kind of big spreadsheet of results or something?



Iocaster mentioned that Zaeed was not eaten by seeker swarms. Is he EVER killed that way? I was wondering if maybe Zaeed and/or Kasumi were never animated for a few of those special end of game situations, meaning that they are exempt from certain rare types of deaths?



Also, about the numerical ranking system: People mentioned characters living or dying in unexpected ways. Could there be an element of randomness to it? Like "in situation x Jack is 85% likely to die" Meaning that even though Jack NORMALLY dies in that situation, she would not always die...

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

2) I also suspect that no matter what combination you use, unless we're going on a Shepard dies playthrough, you'll have at least one survivor. Has anyone had the entire HtL crew die when Shepard happens to live?

Actually, if the answer to that second point is no, that would explain the discrepency in all these results right there.

I think you can get loyal Mordin and unloyal Tali at hold the line to die with Shepard still alive, but I might be mixing up my playthroughs.

[Pacifien]

Ecael wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
2) I also suspect that no matter what combination you use, unless we're going on a Shepard dies playthrough, you'll have at least one survivor. Has anyone had the entire HtL crew die when Shepard happens to live?

Actually, if the answer to that second point is no, that would explain the discrepency in all these results right there.

I think you can get loyal Mordin and unloyal Tali at hold the line to die with Shepard still alive, but I might be mixing up my playthroughs.

If at least one of them lives, then I'm going to speculate that the HtL score will work for the most part except in two situations:
1) You can't get more than three to die unless the whole suicide mission is a wash, but then you need a score of 0.
2) At least one squadmate will always survive unless the whole suicide mission is a wash, even if their HtL score says they should have all died.