713 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Graz73 wrote...
OK, this is a very interesting thread, and I've read most of it.

I'd like to see some kind of big spreadsheet of results or something?

Iocaster mentioned that Zaeed was not eaten by seeker swarms. Is he EVER killed that way? I was wondering if maybe Zaeed and/or Kasumi were never animated for a few of those special end of game situations, meaning that they are exempt from certain rare types of deaths?

Also, about the numerical ranking system: People mentioned characters living or dying in unexpected ways. Could there be an element of randomness to it? Like "in situation x Jack is 85% likely to die" Meaning that even though Jack NORMALLY dies in that situation, she would not always die...

I think I'll go through the various suicide mission guides up until this one and create a footnote guide. At least for Zaeed and Kasumi, they are near last on the Seeker Swarm list. The only way to get them to die is 1) you bring Miranda (who actually won't die in that segment) or 2) you bring Morinth who is actually last on the list. And if you took both Zaeed and Kasumi, Kasumi will die.

People have claimed a random element to some aspects of the guide, but I really am doubtful. As far as I've seen, no one has gotten Tali to die before Mordin unless Mordin was 1) more loyal than Tali or 2) not there.

Hmm. Really want to work on that footnote portion now. I am too easily distracted by frivolous projects.

Modifié par Pacifien, 09 juillet 2010 - 03:52 .

[Wrexdot]

Wrexdot wrote...

Nonloyal Miranda, Tali and Mordin = Miranda survives, just tested it few minutes ago.

Checked another HTL setup, same result:

Nonloyal Tali, Mordin + loyal Kasumi = Kasumi survives

[Pacifien]

Hey Ecael, when you said all four of the Tier F squadmates died on a playthrough where Shepard died, is that for certain? Because only 3 are shown dead in the cinematic, yeah? Maybe one lived and you just didn't see it 'cause, you know, Shepard was dead and you couldn't check the Team Status page. Or maybe you can, I dunno, I have a 360.

[Pacifien]

So I took the time to figure out how to mod my save game on the 360, which wasn't as time consuming as I would have thought considering the instructions. Anyway, I had a loyal Mordin and unloyal Tali hold the line while I took a loyal Samara and unloyal Miranda to the final boss. Everyone else was dead. Mordin lived. I suppose I should try an unloyal Mordin and unloyal Tali next before I make sweeping statements such as this (again):

1) You cannot have more than 3 squadmates die holding the line.*
2) You will have at least 1 squadmate survive holding the line.**

So other than those two scenarios, the HtL scoring system seems to work.

* Unless it's four unloyal squishies.
** Unless maybe it was an unloyal Mordin holding the line by himself.

Modifié par Pacifien, 10 juillet 2010 - 02:07 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Pacifien wrote...

Hey Ecael, when you said all four of the Tier F squadmates died on a playthrough where Shepard died, is that for certain? Because only 3 are shown dead in the cinematic, yeah? Maybe one lived and you just didn't see it 'cause, you know, Shepard was dead and you couldn't check the Team Status page. Or maybe you can, I dunno, I have a 360.

There is a loading screen before Shepard (Joker) has the final converation with TIM. And that means auto-save. It's possible to check the plot flags (for dead squadmates) in Gibbed's save editor.

The most interesting thing about this auto-save file is that the flag "game not finished" changes to "lived to fight another fight". That is if Shepard survives. There also is a flag "out in a blaze of glory", which is ,I suppose, for the "Joker talks to TIM" outcome...

Now, I understand that it will probably mean only a crash, but technicaly, you'll be able to try to import a "dead Shepard" save in ME3.

Gotta test it!

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

So I took the time to figure out how to mod my save game on the 360, which wasn't as time consuming as I would have thought considering the instructions. Anyway, I had a loyal Mordin and unloyal Tali hold the line while I took a loyal Samara and unloyal Miranda to the final boss. Everyone else was dead. Mordin lived. I suppose I should try an unloyal Mordin and unloyal Tali next before I make sweeping statements such as this (again):

1) You cannot have more than 3 squadmates die holding the line.*
2) You will have at least 1 squadmate survive holding the line.**

So other than those two scenarios, the HtL scoring system seems to work.

* Unless it's four unloyal squishies.
** Unless maybe it was an unloyal Mordin holding the line by himself.

What if you used loyal Samara and loyal Miranda at the final boss? Would that change anything?

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is a loading screen before Shepard (Joker) has the final converation with TIM. And that means auto-save. It's possible to check the plot flags (for dead squadmates) in Gibbed's save editor.

The most interesting thing about this auto-save file is that the flag "game not finished" changes to "lived to fight another fight". That is if Shepard survives. There also is a flag "out in a blaze of glory", which is ,I suppose, for the "Joker talks to TIM" outcome...

Now, I understand that it will probably mean only a crash, but technicaly, you'll be able to try to import a "dead Shepard" save in ME3.Gotta test it!

Zombie Shepard for ME3!

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

So I took the time to figure out how to mod my save game on the 360, which wasn't as time consuming as I would have thought considering the instructions. Anyway, I had a loyal Mordin and unloyal Tali hold the line while I took a loyal Samara and unloyal Miranda to the final boss. Everyone else was dead. Mordin lived. I suppose I should try an unloyal Mordin and unloyal Tali next before I make sweeping statements such as this (again):

1) You cannot have more than 3 squadmates die holding the line.*
2) You will have at least 1 squadmate survive holding the line.**

So other than those two scenarios, the HtL scoring system seems to work.

* Unless it's four unloyal squishies.
** Unless maybe it was an unloyal Mordin holding the line by himself.

What if you used loyal Samara and loyal Miranda at the final boss? Would that change anything?

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is a loading screen before Shepard (Joker) has the final converation with TIM. And that means auto-save. It's possible to check the plot flags (for dead squadmates) in Gibbed's save editor.

The most interesting thing about this auto-save file is that the flag "game not finished" changes to "lived to fight another fight". That is if Shepard survives. There also is a flag "out in a blaze of glory", which is ,I suppose, for the "Joker talks to TIM" outcome...

Now, I understand that it will probably mean only a crash, but technicaly, you'll be able to try to import a "dead Shepard" save in ME3.Gotta test it!

Zombie Shepard for ME3!

Uh, cancel that. ME2 has enough of Zombie Shepard already, so the "out in a blaze of glory" flag precludes the save file import for NG+.

As to the 4th character dying at the "hold the line", it is evident when Joker says "No sign of them" instead of "All survivors on board".

[Pacifien]

Ooookey then. More SCIENCE!

1) Escorts do matter.
     - Escort: Loyal Jacob
     - HtL: Loyal Mordin + unLoyal Tali
     - Final Boss: unLoyal Samara + unLoyal Miranda
     - You already have one survivor (the escort), so you need a second one for Shepard to live.
     - Result: Mordin lives
Compare this to...
     - Escort: None
     - HtL: Loyal Mordin + unLoyal Tali
     - Final Boss: unLoyal Samara + unLoyal Miranda
     - Neither squadmate survived the final boss, you have no escort -- even if Mordin lived, you do not have enough survivors for Shepard to live as well.
     - Result: No one lives. Joker says no one made it back from HtL.
     - Oddity: The cinematic showing the dead HtL squadmates only shows Tali

2) Escorts don't necessarily matter.
     - Escort: None
     - HtL: Loyal Mordin + unLoyal Tali
     - Final Boss: Loyal Samara + unLoyal Miranda
     - You again have at least one survivor, so you need a second one for Shepard to live.
     - Result: Loyal Samara and Loyal Mordin survived

3) Loyalty still matters.
     - Escort: None
     - HtL: unLoyal Mordin + unLoyal Tali
     - Final Boss: Loyal Samara + unLoyal Miranda
     - You have at least one survivor from the final battle, but no escort and only unloyal Tier F (reference OP) squadmates HtL.
     - Results: Loyal Samara survived but no one survived HtL
     - Oddity: The cinematic showing the dead HtL squadmates show both Mordin and Tali

4) For an average score above 0, at least one squadmate will survive HtL so long as there is a surviving escort or final boss squadmate.
     - Escort: None
     - HtL: Loyal Mordin + unLoyal Tali
     - Final Boss: Loyal Samara + Loyal Miranda
     - You already have two survivors from the final boss; there is no reason to have a survivor from HtL
     - Result: Mordin still lived

5) Loyalty doesn't always matter.
     - Escort: None
     - HtL: Loyal Mordin + Loyal Tali
     - Final Boss: unLoyal Samara + unLoyal Miranda
     - You have no survivors from the final battle and no escort; both HtL squadmates need to survive for Shepard to live.
     - Result: No one lived. Joker says no one made it back from HtL
     - Oddity: The cinematic showing the dead HtL squadmates only shows Mordin.

What am I getting out of all this testing?
At least one squadmate survives holding the line unless the average score is 0.
     1) If your average score is 1.0, dictating a loss of 2 squadmates, this will not happen if you only have 2 squadmates holding the line.
     2) Exception -- If only one squadmate survives holding the line, you need a surviving escort or surviving final boss squadmate or else Joker will say no one made it back from holding the line (even if the cinematic shows otherwise). Shepard will then die.

Also, the speculation from this post appears to hold true: the only way to get more than 3 squadmates to die is if the HtL score is zero (Jack, Kasumi, Mordin and Tali are all unloyal).

Modifié par Pacifien, 01 septembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

We should give this "science" a name, Pacifien.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

We should give this "science" a name, Pacifien.

The civilizations of the Galaxy call this science...

Effectology? Effectomy? Mass effectics?


(Don't forget to consider the title, Pacifien. What you prefer to call yourself - effectologist, effectomist, or mass effecticist?)

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 juillet 2010 - 01:26 .

[Ecael]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

We should give this "science" a name, Pacifien.

The civilizations of the Galaxy call this science...

Effectology? Mass effectics?

I tried using BioWare, but I ended up with Biology and Biotics.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

We should give this "science" a name, Pacifien.

The civilizations of the Galaxy call this science...

Effectology? Mass effectics?

I tried using BioWare, but I ended up with Biology and Biotics.

Hmmm, I see now. That's where the Darwinism plotholes are coming from!

[Fiery Phoenix]

Effectology sounds fine to me.

[Pacifien]

I am the very model of a Bioware obsessive fan
I've studied every mission from recruitment to the Hammerhead
I'm very well acquainted on defensive scores math'matical
From Mordin to the Krogan, I can list them categorical

I did it all for science in the name of Effectology
Fanatic lack of life (which we all know is a tautology)
When asked to Hold the Line, every scenario brings something new
Each squadmate has a tier with which their strength in numbers can accrue

A hundred missions I have ran
I do it simply 'cause I can
I am the very model of a Bioware obsessive fan

[numotsbane]

epic

[CroGamer002]

Something really weird happen to me.
On my last playtrough I had everyone loyal but Mordin died holding the line?
Well some of my squad mates did die( Jacob in vents, Jack by seeker swarm and Zaeed 2nd fire team) and I pick Garrus and Legion with me for final boss.
Did I did something wrong or game glitched?

EDIT #1 Also Thane was escort.

Modifié par Mesina2, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:59 .

[Pacifien]

Mesina2 wrote...
Something really weird happen to me.
On my last playtrough I had everyone loyal but Mordin died holding the line?
Well some of my squad mates did die( Jacob in vents, Jack by seeker swarm and Zaeed 2nd fire team) and I pick Garrus and Legion with me for final boss.
Did I did something wrong or game glitched?

EDIT #1 Also Thane was escort.

Your HtL score wasn't high enough.
Grunt + Miranda + Samara + Kasumi + Mordin + Tali
4 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 11/6 = 1.83

Your average needs to be at least 2.0 for everyone to live. Leave Garrus and Grunt and take someone else to the final boss, everyone is likely to live.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Pacifien wrote...

I am the very model of a Bioware obsessive fan
I've studied every mission from recruitment to the Hammerhead
I'm very well acquainted on defensive scores math'matical
From Mordin to the Krogan, I can list them categorical

I did it all for science in the name of Effectology
Fanatic lack of life (which we all know is a tautology)
When asked to Hold the Line, every scenario brings something new
Each squadmate has a tier with which their strength in numbers can accrue

A hundred missions I have ran
I do it simply 'cause I can
I am the very model of a Bioware obsessive fan

Seriousy, great job.

[CroGamer002]

Pacifien wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Something really weird happen to me.
On my last playtrough I had everyone loyal but Mordin died holding the line?
Well some of my squad mates did die( Jacob in vents, Jack by seeker swarm and Zaeed 2nd fire team) and I pick Garrus and Legion with me for final boss.
Did I did something wrong or game glitched?

EDIT #1 Also Thane was escort.

Your HtL score wasn't high enough.
Grunt + Miranda + Samara + Kasumi + Mordin + Tali
4 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 11/6 = 1.83

Your average needs to be at least 2.0 for everyone to live. Leave Garrus and Grunt and take someone else to the final boss, everyone is likely to live.

So I just leave Garrus?
OK, I'll do that.

[CroGamer002]

thx it worked

[Sursion]

Pacifien wrote...

I am the very model of a Bioware obsessive fan
I've studied every mission from recruitment to the Hammerhead
I'm very well acquainted on defensive scores math'matical
From Mordin to the Krogan, I can list them categorical

I did it all for science in the name of Effectology
Fanatic lack of life (which we all know is a tautology)
When asked to Hold the Line, every scenario brings something new
Each squadmate has a tier with which their strength in numbers can accrue

A hundred missions I have ran
I do it simply 'cause I can
I am the very model of a Bioware obsessive fan

EPIC WIN

[Dark Penitant]

Sursion wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

I am the very model of a Bioware obsessive fan
I've studied every mission from recruitment to the Hammerhead
I'm very well acquainted on defensive scores math'matical
From Mordin to the Krogan, I can list them categorical

I did it all for science in the name of Effectology
Fanatic lack of life (which we all know is a tautology)
When asked to Hold the Line, every scenario brings something new
Each squadmate has a tier with which their strength in numbers can accrue

A hundred missions I have ran
I do it simply 'cause I can
I am the very model of a Bioware obsessive fan

EPIC WIN

NICE!

back on topic (well, really its more on Occams Razor17's topic but that was closed), i really dont get why the suicide mission is so hard. the very first time i did it i beat it with no deaths. i had everyone loyal (yes there is enough time for  legion), and picked the right people. i mean honestly, why would you pick the prize over legion/tali? or miranda over samara/morinth/jack. for escort i sent mordin, and took tali and miranda for the boss. easy as pie. i really thought it was just commen sense, given that i hadnt gone on these forums prior to beating the game.

[Wrexdot]

Dark Penitant, "Everyone survives" scenario is easy. But not every person is interested in such a "Suicide" mission scenario.

Modifié par Wrexdot, 12 juillet 2010 - 09:19 .

[Yamo425]

Thanks for this guide. I remember on my first playthrough I had Mordin hold the line because I remembered that speech on Virmire. haha.