65 réponses à ce sujet

[rickcr]

I'm not a complete newb to RPGs.. understand tanking, pulling, aggro, etc. My characters are only around level 9 right now and certain parts I'm finding quite challenging. I like the challenge but I'm curious about the posters that say "I cleared the whole game on standard without having a character die once." Is this because you've run through the game a few times and know certain areas to stay away from? Otherwise, I'm suprised how this is possible .

I'm in the non spoiler forum so I can't speak specifics but there are certain parts at my level that seem practically impossible.  For example you can get a quest (a follow up from the same guy) in Denerim where you end up in a spot where you are swarmed when you enter a particular building. Then later on in the same city, but a different region of the city, there is another part where I end up in a similar situation. There is just no way Alistar (my tank) can hold the aggro from all the mobs and even with Morrigan's crowd control and AOE, it's just too much.

(My current group is myself as a cunning dw rogue, alistar, morrigan, and Leliana as an archer - don't have wynne yet.)

Again, not complaining at all, I just can't imagine how in some of these portions of the game you could clear them when you're only level 9 (I know it has level scaling but in some places - not many - the sheer number of mobs seems too much for the limited abilities your characters have at that level.)

[Roland Aseph]

Not an expert by far myself...but what I found to be helpful was to make sure I had kept up on my "Tactics" slots, making sure they were filled correctly with the type of actions (and the order) that I wanted and needed.



This helped quite a bit...as opposed to not using the Tactics the best I could.



That said, I agree that for me...there have been several places that my group of adventurers have had a tough time of it. (on Standard).



I try and save as best I can before any big confrontation...because sometimes the winds of war just don't blow the way you want it too



Best of Luck!

[Khayness]

Playing previous RPGs like the DnD based ones helps a lot. DA is a cakewalk compared to the buff everyone to hell before every encounter Infinity Engine turn based RPGs.

[Sylixe]

Some pointers to make the game a whole lot easier.

1. Use LOS to your advanatge. Pulling mobs around corners to force rng and spell casters to come closer to you is a very good strategy.
2. Use those flasks you can throw as a rogue onto groups and watch them melt
3. Does your rogue have the self poison ability from the Wardens keep DLC?
4. Use your rogues stealth to OPEN doors and walk through corridors and scout out groups.
5. Keeping your group on hold and dragging mobs to narrow openings works wonders.
6. You do NOT need wynee or even make morrigan a total healer class to beat the game even on nightmare.
7. Allistair should always have threaten up at all times and shield wall. Use AoE taunt when you grup them all up to keep them on him. Making Allistair a certain secondary class helps add resistance to him and he becomes a super tank. If you want to cheat and have a tank that is pretty much unkillable go get the golem and replace Allistair.
8. Another alternative is to have a two or three tank group that just out lasts your opponents.
9. The AI is really stupid and you can get LoS using a rogue into one room and use spell AoE's through walls into those rooms.  Not to mention Z axis is abusable.
10. Max out certain stats over others like for example for allistair max out his Dex and ignore stamina. It might sound stupid but you can get ridiculous avoidance.
11. If you see a caster in the gorup kill them FIRST over everything else. At the very least CC them, imprison them or run a rogue to them and do some soft CC on them.

If i am thinking of the room you speak of it's the one in the warehouse. That fight isn't really all that hard if you move the group to the back small room and cut off the los to the guys in the corners. Again , use LoS to your advantage and they will group up for you.

Modifié par Sylixe, 21 juin 2010 - 07:37 .

[CID-78]

well there is also a diffrence between going through the game without anyone dying and the fact that none died ever. ie some people classifies that they have failed if they or a companion dies and reload. so in the end the party went through the game without dying. that what i did on Hard on my first play through. I never allowed anyone to die in any combat. but I did reload quite some times.

[rickcr]

Great points.. some inline responses below..somewhat OT..

[quote]
1. Use LOS to your advanatge. Pulling mobs around corners to force rng and spell casters to come closer to you is a very good strategy.[/quote]

Yes, I use this one a lot and love it. Love to have the other toons on hold around a corner. Stealth in set some traps and then try to pull them. (I do notice that some won't always pull from their rooms though.) And the bigges issue is when you don't have set up times like after cut scenes.

[quote]2. Use those flasks you can throw as a rogue onto groups and watch them melt.[/quote]

This I admit I haven't leverage yet. 

[quote]3. Does your rogue have the self poison ability from the Wardens keep DLC?.[/quote]

No he does not. I'll order that tonight. (Also quick question on DLC.. if I download awakening, can I start a DA Origins with new stuff immediately from awakening?)

[quote]4. Use your rogues stealth to OPEN doors and walk through corridors and scout out groups.[/quote]

yup this one I do.

[quote]5. Keeping your group on hold and dragging mobs to narrow openings works wonders.[/quote]

Love doing this. Although is there a way to have a group play 'defensive' ? I tried messing with the tactics on this but couldn't get the behavior I wanted. For example, let's say I pull a bunch of mobs into a room where the rest of my party is waiting on hold. What'd I'd love is a way to keep them fighting in the vicinity where attacked, but don't just go chasing off after some others that happen to now be in los in another room. I know it's probably too much for the AI to do, and if I manually take over it's still tough to quickly have them all retreat back. It would be cool if there was a quick way to say 'retreat' back to the player controlled character.

[quote]6. You do NOT need wynee or even make morrigan a total healer class to beat the game even on nightmare.[/quote]

Cool. Because I was wondering about that. I really enjoy playing both archer and backstabbing rogue so wanted both in my party and want to keep alistar is my tank. I then want a mage around... I've already specced morrigan up to cone of cold and the 3rd electricty talent (AOE one forgot the name.) Ideally I'd actually want a mage that is more of CC type of mage with maybe some healing. Most of the heavy DPS can come from the two rogues.

[quote]7. Allistair should always have threaten up at all times and shield wall. Use AoE taunt when you grup them all up to keep them on him. Making Allistair a certain secondary class helps add resistance to him and he becomes a super tank. If you want to cheat and have a tank that is pretty much unkillable go get the golem and replace Allistair.[/quote]

I'll keep alistar for now. I do keep threaten and shield wall up. Getting taunt next. Screwed up a bit in my order of getting things:(

[quote]8. Another alternative is to have a two or three tank group that just out lasts your opponents.[/quote]

Maybe in another pass I'll give that a try.

[quote]9. The AI is really stupid and you can get LoS using a rogue into one room and use spell AoE's through walls into those rooms.  Not to mention Z axis is abusable.[/quote]

Ha, never tried aoe though the walls. Might have to try that if I get stuck. Not sure what you mean about z-axis being abusable?

[quote]10. Max out certain stats over others like for example for allistair max out his Dex and ignore stamina. It might sound stupid but you can get ridiculous avoidance.[/quote]

I read some guides and am doing that.

[quote]11. If you see a caster in the gorup kill them FIRST over everything else. At the very least CC them, imprison them or run a rogue to them and do some soft CC on them.[/quote]

Try my best to do that.

[quote]If i am thinking of the room you speak of it's the one in the warehouse. That fight isn't really all that hard if you move the group to the back small room and cut off the los to the guys in the corners. Again , use LoS to your advantage and they will group up for you.[/quote]

Yup that was the one (wasn't sure if it broke spoiler rules stating it.) I'll have to try getting them into the back small room (not sure I even saw that room.. at work now, will check when I get home though.)

Thanks again!

[infinite bias]

Your level 9 and you're in Denerim that's your problem. Denerim is scaled for level 10 minimum, same with Orzammar.



This isn't so much a skill problem as it is a "you shouldn't be in this area yet" situation.

[AlanC9]

Don't forget that some people are simply lying about how easy the game is.

[MindYerBeak]

Those that lie are probably using cheats.

I remember that battle, it was a difficult one. I usually go after Baddies in the following order:

1. Mages
2. Archers

I try and take these out first. A Rogue is good for taking out archers.

You can stealth your Rogue and go in with stink bombs. Throw a bomb at an archer and they'll all run to your spot like idiots, but can't see you. Throw enough bombs for 1 dead archer. Also if you get your Rogue to open the door and send in a Fireball via your Mage this would give you some breathing space to position your team.

In such battles keep your backs to the wall so they can't backstab or surround/outflank you.

Modifié par MindYerBeak, 21 juin 2010 - 11:00 .

[Zarenthar]

3 mages and Shale.... End of thread.

[Swordfishtrombone]

I don't think I could have gotten a perfect run had I even tried (without loads of reloading) on my first run, despite being quite experienced in RPGs. And that's a good thing. A game should provide a decent level of challenge on the first playthrough.

[Rhys Cordelle]

Some might be lying, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. It most definitely is. But a "no load" game is silly to strive for until you've got some real experience.



To get the achievements for not dying, you only need to keep your main character alive. If you're swarmed by enemies, get into a corner. That way, only two opponents can melee you at a time. This got me through some tough spots with my solo rogue.

[ken casteel]

i've played through the game almost a dozen times and i only did it with out dying once. all it takes is the s**t to hit the fan one time and your using an injury kit

[Arthur Cousland]

My party members died plenty during my first several playthroughs. Eventually, you just know what's coming and how to deal with it. After a while, you should also get a good idea on how to build your characters so they are tougher to kill, and it helps to get a good understanding on tactics and how to use what and when.



Try playing as a mage sometime. I'm able to make many fights much easier simply by using spells like fireball, cone of cold and blood wound on crowds, and crushing prison, glyph of paralysis, glyph of neutralization, etc. on specific enemies. Once you are comfortable with which spells to use where and when, it's not hard to get through the game without dying, or with minimal deaths.

[AmstradHero]

My first playthrough was a dual tank (Alistair and my character) then Leliana and Wynne. I made it through "without" my character dying - if they died in the fight, I reloaded.  I was happy for anyone else to fall during battle, (and in a few they all did) but *I* wasn't going to.  

I still have the mindset that the game is my character's story, and if they fall, it's over.  However, I learned to disabuse myself of that notion (somewhat) while playing a squishy mage.

[DWSmiley]

My first group was similar - two tanks, Leliana and Morrigan and I died lots on normal. Not much dps in that group though Morrigan can be potent, of course. But I barely understood my pc's S&S talents, let alone how to build and run a mage. I expect I could make it through on nightmare now without dying if that was my primary focus but I prefer no healer, no tank groups - more exciting. The fights are over quicker, for better or worse! I still don't know tactics well enough to solo on nightmare but I'm not motivated to do it.

[danien.grey]

I got through my first play through without anyone dying until the final battle. I played a Rogue, with Alistair, Wynne, and Morrigan in my party. I have done a solo nightmare run on a rogue, but it took a really long time...and LOTS of traps, haha.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Not having anyone fall during the game is easier if you have lots of crowd control spells available (animals have terrible mental resists, so if you're surrounded by wolves a single Sleep spell can win the fight for you), and if you don't visit some of the particularly dangerous areas until later in the game.

My first time through the game, I thought people were crazy complaining about the fights in Denerim, but by the time I got to Denerim my entire party was level 16, and I'd honed my battle tactics. Groups of archers are a very dangerous opponent for warriors, but multiple high-level mages kill them pretty quickly.

That said, once I could cast Cleansing Aura I stopped caring whether anyone fell in battle.

[TheMadCat]

AlanC9 wrote...

Don't forget that some people are simply lying about how easy the game is.

And some sincerly felt the game was very easy and managed to make it through with minimal troubles. What's your point here?

[Mikka-chan]

I wonder through. I refuse to agree that people who had never played the game before and hadn't been spoiled ALL decided to choose the 'no fight' dialog option after a certain trip to an certain home right before the 'true' endgame, You can definitely beat that fight, but doing so first run hitting it straight with no warning? I'm sure there are one or two people out there who have done it, but I think the majority hit that and would find themselves dead before it was over. Most people would go in expecting a tough fight and be ready for a normal group of scary archers/scary melees, not the massacre it can be.

(Then again, most people bragging were doing so before force-field and cone of cold got a look at)



I found most of the game rather easy- I can now at least get through a nightmare play-through with no deaths and no cheesing. I do consider it pretty easy now, but I admit to having trouble at times. My first party went straight from L to Orz, and the party there beat me maybe seven times in a row before I got it (oddly, after that, I didn't have trouble at all in Or despite being maybe eight). Another fight I had trouble with in one of my playthroughs was a run in with a Desire Demon and her friends in the Mage Tower (...I ended up having to use the dialog combat skip as I just couldn't win), although now I wouldn't rate that as anywhere near the top twenty 'more difficult then others' fights. It just trapped me that one time.



It's also worth noting that as said above, some people when they mean 'I didn't die once' mean 'I didn't have to reload once' while others mean 'Neither the PC nor any party member died at any point'. Big difference.



Try heading to the Mage Tower or Redcliffe (I find the second easier, but that seems to be an unpopular decision). Denerim is good to head in to and pick up quests from, but it's a bit tough. I'd avoid Orz, too. The Forest isn't too bad, but the Mage Tower and Redcliffe are both pretty simple- good places to get started.

[Swoo]

rickcr wrote...

I'm not a complete newb to RPGs.. understand tanking, pulling, aggro, etc. My characters are only around level 9 right now and certain parts I'm finding quite challenging. I like the challenge but I'm curious about the posters that say "I cleared the whole game on standard without having a character die once." Is this because you've run through the game a few times and know certain areas to stay away from? Otherwise, I'm suprised how this is possible .

I'm in the non spoiler forum so I can't speak specifics but there are certain parts at my level that seem practically impossible.  For example you can get a quest (a follow up from the same guy) in Denerim where you end up in a spot where you are swarmed when you enter a particular building. Then later on in the same city, but a different region of the city, there is another part where I end up in a similar situation. There is just no way Alistar (my tank) can hold the aggro from all the mobs and even with Morrigan's crowd control and AOE, it's just too much.

(My current group is myself as a cunning dw rogue, alistar, morrigan, and Leliana as an archer - don't have wynne yet.)

Again, not complaining at all, I just can't imagine how in some of these portions of the game you could clear them when you're only level 9 (I know it has level scaling but in some places - not many - the sheer number of mobs seems too much for the limited abilities your characters have at that level.)

 Your build, party, tactics, micro-management, and surroundings are huge. Factor in AI stupidity as well, a few fights I've basically had to rope-a-dope the elite mob by just sending him running in circles around pillar's or pew's while my other party members wipe him out.

If you find yourself fighting in a nasty chokepoint, look around, see where you can fight on more favorable ground. Denerim is a perfect example with the ambush spots with three lines of archers; You can easily hide behind one of the gate walls, send a character out to take potshots at the archers, and watch them leave their protection to try to get a bead on you. Other fights can be taken care of just as easily - the Desire Demon in the Circle you can just step out of the room, have your tank eat up the doorway space (Bears and Sten are awesome for this) and beat the hell out of them one by one. Three fireball spewing mages? Focus fire quickly with all your ranged with their best abilities and drop him before he can scream, then duck behind a door or into another room before they can retaliate and take them on one or two at a time.

Don't be afraid to run and line of sight enemies, and with mass pulls you can usually either nibble off a mob or three before engaging the entire group, or you can use crowd control to lower the incoming damage output until you whittle them down to a managable force. Every character has some form of CC that you can chain to buy some breathing time with; Alistair Shield Bashing the 2H user, or Morrigan running over and dropping a Mind Blast on a grouping of archers, or Wynne dropping Earthquake forcing the enemy AI to split out of the radius, ect..ect..

The earlier levels can be the worst because your tank's gear and threat is very spotty. Unless I instagib a target, Alistair or Shale cannot control a mob I am damaging until around level 12. My Mage characters get force field very quickly for any elite fights like Revenants or such. Once you can get some decent gear, talents, and statistics on your tank you'll find it much easier. Handling mass pulls like Denerim at level 8 or 9 is going to be chaos, but doing it at 12-14 is suddenly cakewalk.

Lastly, magic healing makes a huuuuuge difference. Having a Mage with a decent investment in the Creation lines makes all the difference between a smashed tank and an effective tank. Lifeward can be a Godsend for those 3 Elite Drake Fights or 20 archers opening up at once. Being able to drop a Heal-Group Heal-Potion-Rejuv-Potion combo can keep a tank going when half a score of people beating on him.

[TheMadCat]

I wonder through. I refuse to agree that people who had never played
the game before and hadn't been spoiled ALL decided to choose the 'no
fight' dialog option after a certain trip to an certain home right
before the 'true' endgame, You can definitely beat that fight, but
doing so first run hitting it straight with no warning? I'm sure there
are one or two people out there who have done it, but I think the
majority hit that and would find themselves dead before it was over.
Most people would go in expecting a tough fight and be ready for a
normal group of scary archers/scary melees, not the massacre it can be.

The thing is pretty much all the fights in Dragon Age are one dimensional, there are no wild cards, there is no large variety of enemy types, no real surprises in your journey. Basically the game tries to defeat you with overwhelming numbers and it's not that difficult to beat numbers. Patience and preparedness and because the fights are all so identical, minus a few, it's very easy to lay out a plan at a moments notice. There is no real difference between fighting the Darkspawn in the Kocari Wilds or the thugs in Denerim and it's like that pretty much the whole. Things are easier when you know exactly what's coming.

[AlanC9]

Well, you will sometimes get a bad positioning setup. But in general, yeah, the game doesn't whip out new freaky abilities at you . By the time you get to level 10 or so you know what you're doing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mikka-chan wrote...

I wonder through. I refuse to agree that people who had never played the game before and hadn't been spoiled ALL decided to choose the 'no fight' dialog option after a certain trip to an certain home right before the 'true' endgame, You can definitely beat that fight, but doing so first run hitting it straight with no warning? I'm sure there are one or two people out there who have done it, but I think the majority hit that and would find themselves dead before it was over.

It would depend on your typical tactics.  I routinely retreat to a defensible position and fight from there, and the fight to which you're referring becomes much easier if you do that.

[AlanC9]

TheMadCat wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Don't forget that some people are simply lying about how easy the game is.

And some sincerly felt the game was very easy and managed to make it through with minimal troubles. What's your point here?

Just that we've seen an epidemic of trash-talk lately. It seems to be a console thing. The ME boards are far worse

DA isn't difficult- - RPGs generally aren't. And I think the design is flawed since high-dex characters become unhittable in the late game and are very tough earlier. But I don't think that getting through the whole game without having your PC drop once is common.

I wish Bio would release their stats, though. I'd love to know how many players actually unlocked the no-death achievements.