176 réponses à ce sujet

[Alesia_BH]

Paromlin wrote...

Which reminds me of cursed items; those were some of the most powerful weapons in BG 1, yet at the same time the most dangerous.

Off topic, but the Ring of Folly became on of the best summoning items in the game in BGII. Chaotic Commands -> Equip Ring of Folly -> Limited Wish: I Wish to Be Protected from Undead -> Evil Cleric (or Good Cleric with the Helm of Opposite Alignment): Turn Undead was a fun little number...

Linking this back in, I do miss stuff like that in Dragon Age.

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 25 juin 2010 - 11:51 .

[Giantevilhead]

The advantage of the magic system in Baldur's Gate is that you can adjust your spells based on what kind of enemies you think you're going to face. If you think you're going to fight golems then you better load up on buffs for your warriors. If you're going to fight hordes enemies then you'll need area effect spells.

With DA, once you've made your spell selection, you can't unlearn them. If your mage specializes in one kind of magic and the enemy is immune or highly resistant to it then you're pretty much screwed.

It's difficult to compare DA's game mechanics with BG's since BG is based on D&D and D&D has a very complex system and there's a lot of things from D&D that BG fails to capture.

[CybAnt1]

ToB isn't bad, but it isn't something like BG should end with.

I agree, the ending is what you would expect (either embrace or reject your godhood) ... but since it's really the conclusion to an epic saga, the way you get there should have been more .... epic. 

Mellissan should have been more memorable than Irenicus as a villain... but really wasn't. The other thing that ToB made me feel was that ol Bhaal had been so .... prodigious .... that Bhaalspawn were as common as rain, making you feel less important. 

While playing ToB, I kept wondering "so who the hell isn't a Bhaalspawn?"

[Giantevilhead]

Bhaal foresaw his own death a long time ago. Also, his resurrection depended on the number of Bhaalspawns who died so it would make sense for him to sire as many children as possible.

[Alesia_BH]

Giantevilhead wrote...

It's difficult to compare DA's game mechanics with BG's since BG is based on D&D and D&D has a very complex system.

Agreed. And once you have scripts which tap that complexity, it becomes apples and oranges.

Of course, it isn't exactly fair to compare the state of the art in Baldur's Gate scripting to what can be found in Dragon Age today. Tactical gamers have had ~10 years to experiment in the game world and imbed their best ideas into scripts. Thedas may become a more dangerous place 10 years from now too.

Still, I'm not seeing the same raw material...

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 25 juin 2010 - 01:12 .

[nitenman]

Doesn't compare sadly, but stop living in the past... BG was BG, DA:O is DA:O take it or leave it...

chore game mechanics have changed so much. how do u think COD4 compares to DUKE NUKEM?

[nYshak]

If we're talking game mechanics DA is more a computer game than BG. The latter is a D&D adaption and thus not very user friendly. When I installed BG / BG2 I was deep into D&D already so I knew what I was doing. But if I imagine for a moment that I had had no idea whatsoever about the rules of D&D I would have made terrible skill choices which might have led to a terrible game experience combat-wise.



So from a game design perspective on new players DA > BG any time. However, BG, as a D&D game, was more balanced and complex. Just compare Kangaxx (BG) to Gaxxkang (DAO; or whatever he's called). Without cheese, the former is such a tough fight. You have to use almost every spell in the book to get his defenses down etc. The latter did not require anything like that, I did not cheese him in any way, but was able to just beat him with enough potions.

[Alesia_BH]

CybAnt1 wrote...

ToB isn't bad, but it isn't something like BG should end with.

Yeah. You're not alone there.

The Ascension Mod did spruce up ToB though. It's worth checking out if you haven't done so already. Ascension + Sword Coast Stratagems II + Fixpack gives you a really nice, balanced BG-II install. There are more challenging options, but that combo is definitely worth trying if you are considering revisiting BG.

Best,

A.

[Rzepik2]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

ToB isn't bad, but it isn't something like BG should end with.
.

True, true...
Melissan is a boring generic archvillain. Besides it's much harder to make a good high-level cRPG, I suppose...
What is more my favourite damsels in distress, Nalia, turned from a naive girl into some kind of Lenin in dress 0_o It's nice to see NPC development, but that was just scary XP

Modifié par Rzepik2, 25 juin 2010 - 01:15 .

[BudaKhan]

old book wrote...

How do you think the games compare? Outside of the obvious technical advances DA offers, what does one have that the other lacks?

Brother I've played them all and honestly, I've spent more time playing DA than those games. The obvious answer to the question above is BLOOD. Decapitations. Cinematic finishing moves. Capturing good screenshots becomes a side game, and with the social website you can try to best your mates with the best pics. I love it. Also, IMO, much easier to play DA:O in real time without pausing than any of the Baldurs engine games. All good stories. All worth playing.

[Catcher]

Alesia_BH wrote...
Agreed. And once you have scripts which tap that complexity, it becomes apples and oranges.

    Actually, to me the better comparison is apples and orange seeds.  Even comparing unmodded BG to DA: O is comparing a combat system designed for pen-and-paper combat wonks, run and tested by those wonks for 10+ years (20+ if you include AD&D which was not very different combat mechanic wise) against a system designed for a much wider audience playing SP on a computer and live-tested now for all of eight months. While I would agree that the math is never going to allow for as many 'Rube Goldberg' combinations in modded DA: O as in BG2, I don't really consider that a bad thing. The secondary effects on spells (like the fieball's knockdown effect) and the spell combination possibilities (what if throwing said fireball into a Blizzard created a Fog effect?) certainly present some opportunities both for Bioware going foward as well as future mods. Just a thought I thought I'd share. 

[Alesia_BH]

Catcher wrote...
    Actually, to me the better comparison is apples and orange seeds.

Makes sense Catcher. And I do hope those seeds yield fruit.


Cheers,

A.

[AlanC9]

Alesia_BH wrote...
Of course, it isn't exactly fair to compare the state of the art in Baldur's Gate scripting to what can be found in Dragon Age today. Tactical gamers have had ~10 years to experiment in the game world and imbed their best ideas into scripts. Thedas may become a more dangerous place 10 years from now too.

Still, I'm not seeing the same raw material...

I agree with this, but not quite for the reasons you express. Because DA walked away from the buff-debuff design, there are too many DA moves that don't have any real defense. It's easy enough to come up with tactics that would hose a party completely, but not so easy to come up with a way for the party to respond to such tactics

[AlanC9]

MindYerBeak wrote...

If I can see them, they should see me. That's how it was in the BG series. I'm in a certain location in which an Ogre and a group of baddies are standing. I can see them, but they can't see me. I send in Inferno followed by the Winter Storm spell. The Ogre stands there like a lemon doing nothing while he dies. Likewise the rest of them, including a Mage. I pick on the Ogre from the same very safe distance and finish him off with spells. Storm subsides, we go in. Just one Hurlock Alpha archer left. It didn't take long to dispose of him.

Note that it was perfectly possible to do this sort of thing in the BG games with a hiding thief, a Wizard Eye, or an invisible character. Or just by sending a wave of summons around a  corner. I agree that LOS asymmetry is bad design -- I've hated this since NWN1 -- but let's not pretend that this is a new exploit.

Edit: one non-standard anti-mage tactic is to pull the whole party out of LOS except for one sacrificial target -- summons or party member, doesn't matter. Then just keep sending the summoned creatures in until the enemy mage's defenses run out and maybe his whole offensive spell loadout too. After you've got Nishruus and Hakeashars you only need enough of these to exhaust his Death Spells. Cheesy, of course.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 juin 2010 - 06:20 .

[AlanC9]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Paromlin wrote...

Which reminds me of cursed items; those were some of the most powerful weapons in BG 1, yet at the same time the most dangerous.

Off topic, but the Ring of Folly became on of the best summoning items in the game in BGII. Chaotic Commands -> Equip Ring of Folly -> Limited Wish: I Wish to Be Protected from Undead -> Evil Cleric (or Good Cleric with the Helm of Opposite Alignment): Turn Undead was a fun little number...

Linking this back in, I do miss stuff like that in Dragon Age.

You miss the cheesy exploits?

Back on topic... what useful cursed items in BG1? That cursed berserking sword wasn't good enough to keep using, and I can't think of any others that had any useful effects.

[Rzepik2]

AlanC9 wrote...

Alesia_BH wrote...

Paromlin wrote...

Which reminds me of cursed items; those were some of the most powerful weapons in BG 1, yet at the same time the most dangerous.

Off topic, but the Ring of Folly became on of the best summoning items in the game in BGII. Chaotic Commands -> Equip Ring of Folly -> Limited Wish: I Wish to Be Protected from Undead -> Evil Cleric (or Good Cleric with the Helm of Opposite Alignment): Turn Undead was a fun little number...

Linking this back in, I do miss stuff like that in Dragon Age.

You miss the cheesy exploits?

Back on topic... what useful cursed items in BG1? That cursed berserking sword wasn't good enough to keep using, and I can't think of any others that had any useful effects.

If clever combination of spells, skills and cursed items is a cheesy exploit, then yes. We miss the cheesy exploits.

Berserk sword can be useful early in the game. It's +3 after all.
Claw of Kazgaroth, one of the best rings.
And the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity of course!

[Paromlin]

AlanC9 wrote...


Back on topic... what useful cursed items in BG1? That cursed berserking sword wasn't good enough to keep using, and I can't think of any others that had any useful effects.

Hello? We're talking about BG 1 here, if you remember. "That cursed berseking sword" is one of the very few +3 items (no +4 in BG1) in the entire game. Available early on, as said. Two handed. Not too difficult to acquire - at least compared to the Drizzt encounter if you want his swords. You can have up to 6 party members; someone will probably make good use of it. It's more than handy.

Also, as mentioned by Rzepik2, the Claw. Cool effect there.

[HoonDing]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Spell Immunity: Abjuration + Spell Immunity: Divination + Spell Immunity: Conjuration + Improved Invisibility + Mirror Image + Specific Protections + Spell Shield + Pro Magic Weapons + Pro Normal Missles + Blur + Spirit Armor + Stoneskins

*head explodes*

Still, one could stilll simply run away and rest/wait for the protections to run out.

Modifié par virumor, 25 juin 2010 - 11:40 .

[MindYerBeak]

Ah, the Drizzt fight. Such memories will always linger. I could do with that sword thought I, I'll take it from him, 6 against 1, easy peasy.

WHACK!

All my party dead. Reload.

Right, I'll use strategy this time...

WHACK!


All my party dead. Reload.

The correct spells are what's needed here...

WHACK!

All my party dead. Reload.

Let's see, if I try this...

WHACK!
WHACK!

Party all dead. Reload.

That's it, let's get serious with this bugger! Time for a showdown, Drizzt! Take this!...

WHACK!

Party all dead. Reload.

I must have reloaded about 3,000 times. I finally found out how to defeat him entirely by accident. I drank 2 bottles of cider to celebrate.

Modifié par MindYerBeak, 25 juin 2010 - 11:44 .

[HoonDing]

Why does he even ask for help against gnolls? He practically goes on to kill them all on his own anyway.



He's level 16 IIRC, he could probably solo the end fight.

[MindYerBeak]

That's why I thought he would be easy peasy, asking for help the way he did.

[Sago_mulch]

Infact I would say they are both the same(ish) in story telling.

They have only really improved on the graphics and game mechanics(it's easier to understand than DnD rules, at least) yet it is easier in comparision to the BG series in terms of gameplay challenge.

THE DARK GRITTY GRIMDARK MATURE ADULT FANTASY - BUY NOA.

A SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR TO THE LEGENDRY BALDUR HURRS GATE.

lol, hype and constant positive reviews. it's a conspiracy D:

[Alesia_BH]

AlanC9 wrote...

You miss the cheesy exploits?

I miss the variety of casting experiences- the opportunities for invention.

Some could be labeled "cheesy" in the context of  certain encounters due to excessive effectiveness. But if that's the case they can simply be restricted untill a time when they provide balance and enjoyment- or merely viewed as an exercise in game mechanics. (*)

Personally, I like having a wide space of possibilities available to me- even if I wouldn't avail myself of all in every
situtation. I'm probably not alone there.

Best,

A.


Btw.

virumor wrote...

Alesia_BH wrote...

Spell Immunity: Abjuration + Spell Immunity: Divination + Spell Immunity: Conjuration + Improved Invisibility + Mirror Image + Specific Protections + Spell Shield + Pro Magic Weapons + Pro Normal Missles + Blur + Spirit Armor + Stoneskins

*head explodes*

Still, one could stilll simply run away and rest/wait for the protections to run out.

True: assuming you aren't in close quarters where resting is resticted.

Oversight Sendai runs a buff regime similar to that one and no: you can't run out of the chamber and rest. On Insane, she also runs multiple Projected Images with Spell Immunity Triggers and has an endlessly spawning army of Drow Fighters and Wilting casting Mages flanking her. She does make a few mistakes that leave her vulnerable to most classes and IIRC her Projected Images have issues with invisibility which can allow you to wait her out in certain stages of the battle. But it is a fun fight if you play it straight. And with some party compositions it is genuinely challenging- especially on Insane.


(*) As an example, when I soloed my Transmuter through SoA-ToB + Tactics (parts) + Ascension, her first big hurdle was Improved Illasera. Improved Illasera is a Ranger/Archer with nasty Dispeling Arrows that cause Casting Failure. She is flanked by a high level mage, a high level cleric, and some beefy fighters. Now, she can be a pushover is you have the Reflection Shield, Physical Mirror, or ProMW but for a solo Transmuter (no ProMW, no Spell Immunities, No Lower Resistance, amongst others) she is tricky. After a little thought -and with her stylistic emphasis on the Alteration School in mind- I had her establish a Teleport Field (for the fighters), summon 20 Bunnies via Limited Wish (to run distraction), turn into a Mustard Jelly via the Cloak of the Sewers (for the Missle Damage resistance), and then fight through a Simulacrum and a Projected Image spawned via Chain Contingency: See Enemy. The images disabled their opponents via Power Words before Transmuting into Iron Golems and pounding Illasera to death. That was a really fun fight. 

Now, there were two "cheesy" moves there: 1) using Limited Wish to summon the Bunnies; and 2) circumventing the Projected Image restrictions on physical attacks via Shapechange. But you know what, it was a very satisfying fight. I'm glad I had the freedom to do that.       

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 26 juin 2010 - 12:12 .

[Alesia_BH]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Still, I'm not seeing the same raw material...

AlanC9 wrote...

I agree with this, but not quite for the reasons you express. Because DA walked away from the buff-debuff design, there are too many DA moves that don't have any real defense. It's easy enough to come up with tactics that would hose a party completely, but not so easy to come up with a way for the party to respond to such tactics

Good point.


Best,

A.

[hexaligned]

This is probably a singular disappointment, or at least a not very common one, but a lot of my enjoyment from these types of games comes from playing around with weird class combo's and builds and making them work. For instance two of my favorites from BG were ranger/cleric and kensai/druid. That kind of class blending and tinkering isn't really possible with the limited options DAO has, so as a result I found all of the classes pretty bland. One other thing I sorely miss is the ability to create a whole party from scratch, after my first play through of BG2 I never used the stock party members again, or at most just one or two of them. I found them to be mostly annoyances that only limited my options as far as gameplay went. Oh how I wish that particular feature had carried over to DAO.