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Some Actually Constructve Thoughts on DAO


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#1
AgenTBC

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DAO is a very good game with, despite the expected ****ing you always get for a complicated game like this, a lot of greatness in it. It also has some significant problems. The good news is that none of the problems are inherent to the game and would be easy to avoid in future DLC or full expansions/sequels.

Let me first, to repurpose Tolstoy, say that great games are all alike; every poor game is poor in its own way. So the fact that I'm talking about problems more than praise is because everyone knows and can point to the great things in DAO. The characters, the storytelling, much of the world, most of the voice acting, etc. Lets take that as a given.

I hope the devs take the following as it is meant; How I think a very good game with the potential for greatness could have met that potential. Here are four issues in ascending order of importance andifficulty to fix:

First, a minor matter of preference. If you're going to make difficulties called "hard" and "nightmare", you really have to make them difficult. I realize that not everyone has the same skill level so I'll even ignore "hard" being easier than I feel it should be. But "nightmare"? Really, this needs to be made a lot more difficult. 

Second, moving forward with games not using the DnD license was the right decision. It allows a great deal more  freedom and control. But you have to balance things better. The good part of using the DnD license as in  Neverwinter Nights 2 is that they've done most of the balancing for you. But in DAO, some supposed prestige  classes are useless, like Shapeshifting. Specializations should make you more powerful but using Shapeshifting is actually greatly detrimental. Which is too bad because it's a great idea. You need to make sure that all these things work at least moderately well.

The next two are the most important.

Third, social skills and party member stats are not used nearly enough in dialogue with NPCs or quest events,  which is a step backwards from NWN2 and expansions. Right now the great majority of dialogue and so forth is the same whether or not you are a stupid brute who cant do anything but swing a sword or a brilliant mage who knows everything there is about survival and herbalism. Your stats and skills (and party members) should open or close far, far more dialogue options. You see it occasionally but much too rarely.


Lastly, Bioware has clearly internalized how important a diverse group of interesting characters in your party are.  The stories of your companions are very well done. HOWEVER, it is way, way, way, way too easy to get their  attitudes towards you very high, very quickly, and far, far, far, far too easy to avoid upsetting them. The affinity  increases from gifts and camp dialogue are far too high and happen far too quickly. Decreases from dialogue are too low and too easy to avoid. The affinity increases and decreases from actual, you know, actions in the world are far too rare and far too low.

In other words, you can find a companion and plop them in your camp and basically never take them out of camp, and yet they can pretty easily be turned into someone who will share their biggest secrets and dreams with you, and who is willing to die for you or declare you their soulmate. Which is ridiculous. In order to reach that state you should have to bring them with you almost everywhere for almost as long as they are available in your party. There should be a lot more +/- responses to your actual actions and those should be of greater magnitude.

For example, Leilana is in love with my character and yet if I hire an "escort" in a brothel all that happens is -1 from her? Really? Hey, I'm glad there was at least something since I half expected no response but it should be more  like -10. Nobody cared one way or the other than I killed an honorable knight in a "duel"? Nobody cared one way or the other how I handled the end of the werewolf/elf war? Nobody cares one way or the other about far too many things.

On first glance this might seem trivial, but it is not. The interactions between party members is of paramount  importance in a game like this, and has been so since Planescape: Torment through NWN2 and expansions.  Making it so easy to unlock all the party dialogue and romances and quests and such while it is almost  impossible to annoy them defeats much of the purpose of this party system and turns what should be the games greatest strength into a neutral at best.

In the future, affinity increases from gifts and most dialogue need to be much less, some of that dialogue should have stat/skill pre-requisites, and affinity increases/decreases from actions should be much more frequent and of greater magnitude.

You want this sort of thing to be something that builds and flows naturally through the game, not something tacked on where you can just throw some items at the character and blindly click through their dialogue while never taking
them out of camp. I'd point to Dak'kon in Torment and much of the stuff in NWN2 as good examples. If NWN2 was like DAO, you could have gotten both Bishop and Elanee to be your staunch companions at the same time just by chatting them up during camp.

To summarize what I'm saying about companion affinity in one succint message: It should not be possible to reach a high affinity (and the resultant bonuses and dialogue options) through camp and gift interaction, it should require them to be in your actual party for a long time in order to get (what should be) more frequent and higher
magnitude shifts in affinity from things that happen (quests, decisions, etc) during actual play.

Positive and negative shifts should happen organically from your playstyle and choices, not arbitrarily and  unnaturally from artificial effort during camp.  It is a key thing to make this sort of game work better.  Critical, really.

As I said, this should not be taken to mean I don't think DAO is a very good game. Just that the ways it is good are obvious and true of most very good games while the ways it needs to be improved are specific to its faults.

edited to fix some layout problems

Modifié par AgenTBC, 09 novembre 2009 - 11:47 .


#2
hannahb

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good post, bravo

#3
Azrailx

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I found it to ez to ****** them off...

#4
dewcrowe

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haha yeah I had everyone mad at me all the time. Except the good people. Everytime I was willing to help people it seemed like sten and morrigan hated me.

#5
AgenTBC

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That's odd. I've taken exactly TWO negatives from Morrigan for helping people despite her being in my party all the time. I believe it was in Lothering when stopped the merchant from price gouging too much and again in the elf camp when I help some simpering elf and his much too attractive girlfriend hook up. And that was for a total of like -7 or -8 to affinity.



I have, on the other hand, given her 4-5 pieces of jewelry which added up to probably +40 to affinity.



Which is ridiculous.

#6
Inhuman one

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I dont think its a good idea to compare a bioware game to the trash that is called neverwinter nights 2.



Dragon Age would deserve that title more than that garbage Obsidian threw together.



I have to agree about interaction between characters though, to some point. Personly I find it quite difficult to get them to really like me, and getting them to hate me seems a lot easier than that.



But some more reactions would be good yes, but I also found moments where party members where annoyed by minor things that shouldnt bother them that much since it doesnt affect them at all.


#7
Dramiscius

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Inhuman one wrote...

I dont think its a good idea to compare a bioware game to the trash that is called neverwinter nights 2.

Dragon Age would deserve that title more than that garbage Obsidian threw together.

I have to agree about interaction between characters though, to some point. Personly I find it quite difficult to get them to really like me, and getting them to hate me seems a lot easier than that.

But some more reactions would be good yes, but I also found moments where party members where annoyed by minor things that shouldnt bother them that much since it doesnt affect them at all.


I'll agree, nwn2 was terrible when it launched and I still prefer nwn1 to it however nwn2 nowadays has gotten alot better then when they launched it and my game was chain crashing all the time.

However nwn1 also has years of community content behind it so its not really fair to compare the 2 games from that standing.

#8
dewcrowe

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AgenTBC wrote...


I have, on the other hand, given her 4-5 pieces of jewelry which added up to probably +40 to affinity.

Which is ridiculous.


Dude its a girl I'm pretty sure thats how it works in real life. ( I joke I joke)

#9
Boeresmurf

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nwn was great game, but nwn2 was crap;. not really fair to compare those 2 games.

but i agree that the affiniaton u get from gifts is insane.....



:)

#10
CkCorvus

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I dont agree, its a casual game and there is no way for it to be very challenging even if all the classes are balanced etc, that is not even needed as you are better off just choosing what you like and going with it - doesnt make much of a difference on gameplay.

As for party memeber social stuff - wouldnt like it to be too hard anyway, i want to see what the guys can tell me and i dont want it to be as hard as possible, especialy if it would be taken to such a level that you wouldnt be able to get good relationships with certain members, while getting along with others, in one playthrough. Just not worth it.

As for dialogue options - it doesnt matter too and it would be bad for the same reason as hard-socialising with party - a brute warrior player would just miss out on alot of dialogue and then what, have to replay the game as mage? No thanks. Persuasion/intimidate can make alot of difference and your decisions have big impact on stuff most of the time, actualy more than Most of the rpg's ever made - dialogue options then become really unimportant.

A good example of that would be fallout(1 and 2) where you get more dialogue options depending on your int/pe/cha, but they dont really change much and the game didnt have nearly as much variety in what you can change nor such a compelling storyline (which is the main point of the game).

Modifié par CkCorvus, 11 novembre 2009 - 08:45 .


#11
Guest_Crawling_Chaos_*

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I think I'm having a problem with gaining affinity with Allister.



I got around 2 events that lowered his affinity down to +11.



Now he is unfazed by anything I do. I was in orzammar and let a demon free and he didn't say/do anything at all.



maybe it's because he feels awkward/alienated now that I've romanced Morrigan?



Dunno, even gifts that seem to fit him perfectly (what gifts are perfect for Allister anyway?) only give him +1.

#12
Sable Rhapsody

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I actually liked Dragon Age's affinity/influence system because it can work for roleplaying without screwing you over mechanically.



The point of gifts is to make sure that the mechanics of having an influence system for your companions doesn't turn them into a liability, since angry/upset party members are less effective in combat and more likely to betray you, and that just makes the game not fun at a certain point. In RPGs, balancing roleplaying and character interaction with the mechanics is always tricky. If you want to be lazy and just bribe people into liking you, fine, but I don't think that's what gifts are meant for. They're meant to give you a boost since you obviously can't please everyone via just character interaction and decisions, and you'll need to do things that some NPCs don't like.



Unless you just bring the puppy with you everywhere. He ruvs you no matter what. At times, I wonder why I couldn't just have had an army of Mabari war hounds...

#13
Argus_Eyes

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I only agree with your thrid point.



your first point is a point of view.



your second point: DnD Ballenced??? that would be a first. I loved NWN but if you want to do a quick run make a priest with a combination of magic, strenght, war, or heal domain. no easier way to do it.



fourth point: Try Roleplaying instead of trying to beat the game mechanics, and you'll see how hard it can be to keep your party members happy.