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[Heather Cline]

Last Darkness wrote...

Heather Cline wrote...

Another way to help with your hit is to put some points into dex to help increase his hit rate. anywhere between 18 to 26 is where the dex should fall if you decide to go the dex route to up his hit rate.

Instead of putting those point into strength to boost his damage and his hit rate by the same amount?
Str and Dex increase your hit rate by the same amount.

Two hander admitedly suck in the begining because your attacks are slow, you can get a decent one till later, you have to auto attack most the stuff early game. It gives people a distinctly bad impression. It mid game and on when two hand really shines.   Put all your point into Str except when needed in cunning if you want coearcion.
You definetly want to pick up the firts ability in the second warrior skill tree "Precise Striking" you generaly want this on all the time. It will definetly help with your miss rate early. As suggested pick up your Sunder Arm and Sunder Armor skill as these will be DPS spam abilities. Make sure you get Indomitable and if you can keep it running always as this is your status effect immunity to stuns and such.  I also highly suggest getting Mighty blow for some intial dps spam as well. Of course at level 12 you should definetly have/get Deathblow for more stamina everytime you kill something.

I highly suggest if you have them to do Wardens keep right out of Lothering and get Starfang.
Make sure to put all your points into Str as this boosts damage, increases your chance to hit, increases physical resitance, and allows you to equip the bets armor and weapons in the game.
I highly suggest giving it a full go, instead of "I dont like this" and quiting before it gets any good.

Though if you prefer to stand there and auto attackl instead of skill spamming, do not play a two hander as this is not the build for you. Try Duel wield daggers instead.

I'll tell you this right now. Strength has nothing to do with hit rate in this game. Strength has everything to do with damage and the ability to equip heavy weapons. Dexterity is what is needed for hit rate. The more dexterity you have the higher your hit rate is. That is why when having a rogue they go for high dexterity and high cunning. Dexterity helps with hit rate and evasion rate. Says so in the fricken game manual and the strategy guide. Look it up before you go off spouting about how strength affects hit rate. It doesn't. It's not meant to, which is why I suggested going for a little bit of added dexterity for the player. You don't need a lot and you get most if not all of your dex points when in the Fade during the circle of magi quest.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Strength for Warriors increases attack by the same dex does for Rogues. Though Warriors don't get the defensive bonus in strength that dex gives rogues.

[Elhanan]

Take a look in here; not the ... er, manual:



http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Attributes

[Bahlgan]

Personally I have my dexterity higher than my cunning only by a mere couple points. Dexterity IS important to Warriors; it is just that it is so much more vital for Rogues because they cannot hit for much unless they get a critical hit (my opinion).

Warriors especially with handed weapons need a tad higher dexterity to increase their hit chances, though strength should still be their highest stat by far. Of course everything I am saying is a poor but certain reminder to those who like to crap out that Warriors don't need dexterity. For those who feel insulted that I am telling you something you have heard a billion times already and the memory and seared into the front of your cerebral cortex, I apologize 

Modifié par Bahlgan, 25 juin 2010 - 08:02 .

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Bahlgan wrote...

Personally I have my dexterity higher than my cunning only by a mere couple points. Dexterity IS important to Warriors; it is just that it is so much more vital for Rogues because they cannot hit for much unless they get a critical hit (my opinion).

Warriors especially with handed weapons need a tad higher dexterity to increase their hit chances, though strength should still be their highest stat by far. Of course everything I am saying is a poor but certain reminder to those who like to crap out that Warriors don't need dexterity. For those who feel insulted that I am telling you something you have heard a billion times already and the memory and seared into the front of your cerebral cortex, I apologize 

Strength and Dex for hit are equal for warriors. Both give .5 attack or hit. While dex gives defense as well. Basically for a warrior it is either;

Strength; hit+damage
Dex; hit+defense

With all the control a 2h warrior has he should just pump strength since with critical strike, mighty blow,  pommel strike, 2h sweep whatever is around you should be stun locked. Not to mention War Cry as well if you choose that spec.

[Bahlgan]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...

Personally I have my dexterity higher than my cunning only by a mere couple points. Dexterity IS important to Warriors; it is just that it is so much more vital for Rogues because they cannot hit for much unless they get a critical hit (my opinion).

Warriors especially with handed weapons need a tad higher dexterity to increase their hit chances, though strength should still be their highest stat by far. Of course everything I am saying is a poor but certain reminder to those who like to crap out that Warriors don't need dexterity. For those who feel insulted that I am telling you something you have heard a billion times already and the memory and seared into the front of your cerebral cortex, I apologize 

Strength and Dex for hit are equal for warriors. Both give .5 attack or hit. While dex gives defense as well. Basically for a warrior it is either;

Strength; hit+damage
Dex; hit+defense

With all the control a 2h warrior has he should just pump strength since with critical strike, mighty blow,  pommel strike, 2h sweep whatever is around you should be stun locked. Not to mention War Cry as well if you choose that spec.

Heh my Warrior has the two knockdown skills War Cry and Two Handed Sweep. Price combinations. He also is a Templar, which means Holy Smite makes number three in my knockdown combo. GOD I love crowd control!

[Last Darkness]

Heather Cline wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Heather Cline wrote...

Another way to help with your hit is to put some points into dex to help increase his hit rate. anywhere between 18 to 26 is where the dex should fall if you decide to go the dex route to up his hit rate.

Instead of putting those point into strength to boost his damage and his hit rate by the same amount?
Str and Dex increase your hit rate by the same amount.

Two hander admitedly suck in the begining because your attacks are slow, you can get a decent one till later, you have to auto attack most the stuff early game. It gives people a distinctly bad impression. It mid game and on when two hand really shines.   Put all your point into Str except when needed in cunning if you want coearcion.
You definetly want to pick up the firts ability in the second warrior skill tree "Precise Striking" you generaly want this on all the time. It will definetly help with your miss rate early. As suggested pick up your Sunder Arm and Sunder Armor skill as these will be DPS spam abilities. Make sure you get Indomitable and if you can keep it running always as this is your status effect immunity to stuns and such.  I also highly suggest getting Mighty blow for some intial dps spam as well. Of course at level 12 you should definetly have/get Deathblow for more stamina everytime you kill something.

I highly suggest if you have them to do Wardens keep right out of Lothering and get Starfang.
Make sure to put all your points into Str as this boosts damage, increases your chance to hit, increases physical resitance, and allows you to equip the bets armor and weapons in the game.
I highly suggest giving it a full go, instead of "I dont like this" and quiting before it gets any good.

Though if you prefer to stand there and auto attackl instead of skill spamming, do not play a two hander as this is not the build for you. Try Duel wield daggers instead.

I'll tell you this right now. Strength has nothing to do with hit rate in this game. Strength has everything to do with damage and the ability to equip heavy weapons. Dexterity is what is needed for hit rate. The more dexterity you have the higher your hit rate is. That is why when having a rogue they go for high dexterity and high cunning. Dexterity helps with hit rate and evasion rate. Says so in the fricken game manual and the strategy guide. Look it up before you go off spouting about how strength affects hit rate. It doesn't. It's not meant to, which is why I suggested going for a little bit of added dexterity for the player. You don't need a lot and you get most if not all of your dex points when in the Fade during the circle of magi quest.

Way to put your foot in your mouth.
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Attributes (Thank you Elhanan)

Best way to build a two hand warrior is all points into Str or save some for Willpower as needed as Elhanan suggests since two hand really is all about skill spamming for big damage numbers.

[Bahlgan]

I'll just be simpler with my opinion:



Dexterity isn't as important for two handed warriors as strength, but it IS still important enough to increase it above 20 points by the end of the game. Hell if you got the extra points, put it to 25. Mine has 27 total; this includes points from the Fade.

[Last Darkness]

Bahlgan wrote...

I'll just be simpler with my opinion:

Dexterity isn't as important for two handed warriors as strength, but it IS still important enough to increase it above 20 points by the end of the game. Hell if you got the extra points, put it to 25. Mine has 27 total; this includes points from the Fade.

I assume you mean for added unnessary defense score?

[Bahlgan]

Last Darkness wrote...

I assume you mean for added unnessary defense score?

Well, I don't put points into Dexterity specifically for defense purposes, if that's what you mean; although it does help. The reasons why I place points into Dexterity for my two hander warrior are for dodge chance as well as chance to hit increase. I don't know though if it also adds chance to parry attacks, cause my warrior can actually do a good tanking job with that also.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 27 juin 2010 - 04:55 .

[Yrkoon]

Bahlgan wrote...

I'll just be simpler with my opinion:

Dexterity isn't as important for two handed warriors as strength,

Dexterity isn't needed AT ALL for a two handed warrior.

Wanna know what happens when    one  wastes   their two-hander's attribute points on Dex?

They end up coming on here and saying stuff like this:

JowyXXV wrote...

 his damage output is far below that of dual-wield.

^what we see here is a complaint made by someone who built their two-hander incorrectly.   He probably spent  half his attribute points on DEX.   Dex is useless on a two-hander.  It doesn't increase your damage output with 2-handed weapons, and therefore, its not needed.  One can argue, as the guy above me just did, that you should add points to  Dex in order to increase your Dodge score.  But  that's like arguing that you should  pump Strength on your Mage so that he can wear heavier armor.   Silly.    2-handers don't need to "dodge" anything, because  they are designed to quickly  KILL the enemy in front of them, not "avoid"  him


Moreover, the OP doesn't mention the Sunders at all in his post.  In fact, he just mentions pommel strike and indomitable.  Which leads me to believe he's barely  10th level.    I'd love to give him lots of build advice here, but I don't know where to start.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 27 juin 2010 - 05:03 .

[Bahlgan]

Yrkoon wrote...

Dexterity isn't needed AT ALL for a two handed warrior.
Wanna know what happens when    one  wastes   their two-hander's attribute points on Dex?
They end up coming on here and saying stuff like this:
 his damage output is far below that of dual-wield.

I wouldn't go as far as saying two handers don't need it at all; it isn't that unimportant.

JowyXXV wrote...

^what we see here is a complaint made by someone who built their two-hander incorrectly.   He probably spent  half his attribute points on DEX.,  Dex is useless on a two-hander.  It doesn't increase your damage output, and therefore, its not needed.

People are not necessarily looking for strength alone by putting points into dexterity for a two handed warrior. In fact, when I placed points into dexterity, I was merely looking for more defensive measures than offensive. This works especially if your two hander is the main tank, provided he knows how to control crowds as well.

JowyXXV wrote...

Moreover, he doesn't mention the Sunders at all in his post.  In fact, he just mentions pommel strike and indomitable.  Which leads me to believe he's barely  10th level.    I'd love to give him lots of build advice here, but I don't know where to start.

If we are talking about the OP, it is because he is indeed at the beginning of the game, as he stated in his first mention. He is not having trouble playing a two handed warrior at some later point in the game. He is having trouble getting himself started in the game. I agree with him though, a two handed warrior is, by most means, underpowered in defense (and perhaps chance to hit) at the beginning of the game. In fact, I salute those who can even manage to get past the attack by Zevran without having to use a single health poultice.

[Yrkoon]

Bahlgan wrote...

I wouldn't go as far as saying two handers don't need it at all

I would.    I don't put any dex points on my two handers.  Because they have no need for  added dex at all.    What they get from the Fade is more  than enough.  And surprize, surprize,   once my two-handers are halfway through the game, they no longer suffer from ANY of the problems the OP mentions.

Bahlgan wrote...

^what we see here is a complaint made by someone who built their two-hander incorrectly.   He probably spent  half his attribute points on DEX.,  Dex is useless on a two-hander.  It doesn't increase your damage output, and therefore, its not needed.

People are not necessarily looking for strength alone by putting points into dexterity for a two handed warrior.. I was merely looking for more defensive measures than offensive. This works especially if your two hander is the main tank, provided he knows how to control crowds as well.

And that's the problem here.  They don't strength build their 2-hander,   and then they   start complaining that their 2-hander is under-performing.... and not as good as their Dualwielder.   And they want to know why.


Again, trying to make your two-hander a "defensive tank" is like trying to make your   Mage a melee specialist.  They're going to suck because they're not designed for the task.  2-handers are  destroyers.  They survive  by  ending battles as soon as possible so that they don't HAVE to worry about defense or  tanking.   None of their talents require Dex.    None of their skills are helped by Dex.   To  limit the damage they take, 2-handers wear  massive  armor... which requires Strength.   

The point is,  If  you build  your two hander for  tanking/defense, you're  severely  underpowering him and using him wrong.    Your best bet is to  just scrap the character and build yourself a  sword and shielder or a dual wielder instead.    Your  tanking/defense game will be much easier.

Yrkoon wrote...

Moreover, he doesn't mention the Sunders at all in his post.  In fact, he just mentions pommel strike and indomitable.  Which leads me to believe he's barely  10th level.    I'd love to give him lots of build advice here, but I don't know where to start.

If we are talking about the OP, it is because he is indeed at the beginning of the game, as he stated in his first mention. He is not having trouble playing a two handed warrior at some later point in the game. He is having trouble getting himself started in the game. I agree with him though, a two handed warrior is, by most means, underpowered in defense (and perhaps chance to hit) at the beginning of the game. In fact, I salute those who can even manage to get past the attack by Zevran without having to use a single health poultice.

No, correction.     He's saying:   "2-handers suck!"  He's not saying:  "well, hehe, two-handers suck at  low levels!"  If he was  saying  the latter, this thread wouldn't be 2 pages long.

And oh, wanna know how to win the Zev battle with a str-built 2 hander?  Simple.  Have your two-hander go after the mage and take her out  with big hits  (a single sunder, or a sunder + mighty blow will do the trick IF you built your two-hander correctly).  Then go after Zevran and do the same.  When those two are out of the picture,  have your mage[s] and archer pick off the other assassins from a distance.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 27 juin 2010 - 06:26 .

[Bahlgan]

Yrkoon wrote...



The point is, If you build your two hander for tanking/defense, you're severely underpowering him and using him wrong. Your best bet is to just scrap the character and build yourself a sword and shielder or a dual wielder instead. Your tanking/defense game will be much easier.

Hopefully that is directed towards to the OP.

[Tonguy]

2H warriors are one of the best class types to use for soloing the game on nightmare.

What allows them to do this is their utility, or as some people would put it, their survivability. They're not defensive enough to be a tank without some dedicated healing but it's that same utility that makes them a good choice for a CC role. Tanking in essence is CC no matter what way you look at it. I'm speaking from experience in playing a tanking role in many games. It's just that 2H warriors tend to lean more to the "crowd control" part of tanking.

The utility I'm talking about consists of their knockdowns, their sunders, their damage and finally their inability to be knocked down themselves. Specializations only help to further this fact. The tanking oriented or utility specs are best. Taking these will help the warrior in the solo game or the tanking role should someone decide to use the toon that way.

For example, a 2H Reaver can survive some melee combat from the massive armor they use. Their knockdowns, Frightening Appearance and Sunder Arms can give them breathing room. Sunder Armor and Stunning Blows can help them finish the fight faster. Indomitability keeps them on their feet and out of danger. Devour is great for getting those precious health points back when a poultice is on CD or something.

All of the above characteristics I mentioned would help that warrior in a solo situation ASWELL as a TANKING situation. Survival is the key, and the class has it to an extent.

Your right Yrkoon in saying that 2H warriors aren't made to tank, but that doesn't mean that it isn't viable. It's just not preferable.

Quick note: And about the length of this thread, it would still be 2 pages long and more because 2 Handed Style is just that awesome  :happy:

Modifié par Tonguy, 28 juin 2010 - 01:53 .

[Urazz]

2H warriors are basically a jack of all trades but a master of none. They can be semi-decent tanks but aren't built to excel at it like sword and shield warriors. Their damage isn't the best but it's good enough that they are still useful to bring along.



Personally, I found 2H warriors best against dragons and other boss type characters that use knockdowns alot. They are also great CCers against trash (especially if you specialize as a templar/champion).



This is why you see 2H warrior vids soloing through the game on nightmare as well.

[Yrkoon]

Actually, no warrior class beats a two-hander in Damage dealing.

[Bahlgan]

Yrkoon wrote...

Actually, no warrior class beats a two-hander in Damage dealing.

I have a question for you. Have you ever played Soul Calibur? You know who Seigfried, Nightmare, Mitsurugi, Astaroth, Kilik, and Rock are right? If not, take a look at their weapons. Notice them real carefully. Tell me what you notice about these weapons mixing together with the guard button.

[Yrkoon]

Bahlgan wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Actually, no warrior class beats a two-hander in Damage dealing.

I have a question for you. Have you ever played Soul Calibur?

No.  Should I?

[Bahlgan]

Eh, I might be wasting my time. Long story short, if you study the gameplay (really just study the guard feature) you will understand why many believe two handers can make good tanks.

[beancounter501]

No need for dex on a 2 Hand. My current party has two 2 hand Warriors, a Str Dual Weld and a str S&S. Neither of the Two Hands have put a single point into dex - and they both have a hit rate in the low 90's. So, umm - don't need dex to hit anything. As for defense - not needed at all. Plus it WILL hurt your damage output. Funny thing, dead monsters don't attack.



And I have been keeping detailed notes on how much each warrior is doing throughout the whole game. The main PC, which is Two Hand blows every else out by a mile. Alistar the Dual Weld is usually second(but he has come in dead last in a couple of zones - Rogue and Archer heavy areas plus he had a really hard doing dmg until he got top notch gear), Sten the Second Two hand is either second or a close third to Alistar. By close he is within 20% of a Dual Weld. Oghren the str S&S is almost always last - unless Alistar decides to spend the entire time stunned in which he moves to third.



If your Dual Weld is outdamaging your Two Hand warrior per hit you have done something really wrong. Like taking dex or will.

[soteria]

Eh, I might be wasting my time. Long story short, if you study the gameplay (really just study the guard feature) you will understand why many believe two handers can make good tanks.

What makes a good tank or damage dealer in another game is completely irrelevant to the question. I'm not even sure why you brought it up, to be honest. Why would it matter if a certain ability makes 2h warriors good tanks in some other game? The abilities and underlying game mechanics are completely different.

For what it's worth, I'll just add that in my experience from having built 2h warriors both ways, pure strength is superior in pretty much every way to mixing stats with anything. They just perform better with max strength, and I don't know why people who have never played with a pure strength 2h warrior would even try to argue otherwise... honestly, I've seen this so many times and it still bewilders me. "My [insert class here] is performing poorly, but despite that I'm still going to tell you that I'm building him the best possible way. The only possible conclusion is that [insert class] sucks."

[Bahlgan]

soteria wrote...

Eh, I might be wasting my time. Long story short, if you study the gameplay (really just study the guard feature) you will understand why many believe two handers can make good tanks.

What makes a good tank or damage dealer in another game is completely irrelevant to the question. I'm not even sure why you brought it up, to be honest. Why would it matter if a certain ability makes 2h warriors good tanks in some other game? The abilities and underlying game mechanics are completely different.
For what it's worth, I'll just add that in my experience from having built 2h warriors both ways, pure strength is superior in pretty much every way to mixing stats with anything. They just perform better with max strength, and I don't know why people who have never played with a pure strength 2h warrior would even try to argue otherwise... honestly, I've seen this so many times and it still bewilders me. "My [insert class here] is performing poorly, but despite that I'm still going to tell you that I'm building him the best possible way. The only possible conclusion is that [insert class] sucks."

Fine then, forget what I said, I thought some people could just think outside the box, or be creative.
Anyway, I got nothing more to discuss on here.

[Yrkoon]

Bahlgan wrote...

Eh, I might be wasting my time. Long story short, if you study the gameplay (really just study the guard feature) you will understand why many believe two handers can make good tanks.

Well, whether you're wasting your time is something you can answer for yourself. 

But the last time I checked, we weren't discussing   which weapon style in Soul Calibur deals the most damage.  

In any case,  I think people are confusing DPS with actual damage per  hit.    The question should be, who's better  at DPS.  Except that we can't really answer such a question in this game since DA doesn't have a DPS meter/calculator that we can look to.   And even if it did, it wouldn't really  settle the argument.  DPS isn't the be-all-to-end all of power and damage.  A two-handed warrior is  'explosion" based.  They're not desiged to deliver constant damage to an opponent  over a period of time.  They're designed to destroy the opponent in a Burst wave of a couple of hits--which, IMO, is a more successful way of eliminating the mobs in DA:O.   Most of the Crowd control skills in this game do not have long durations.  They have very short  ones.  In most cases, you've got a window of about 1 or 2 hits to take advantage.  And who's going to be the best at delivering the most damage in one or two hits?    A two-hander.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 juin 2010 - 01:29 .

[Elhanan]

While it may not be the best build, the pts invested into Will (ca.30) & Dex (ca.25) hardly crippled my Warden at all. She still defeated Set Cauthrian twice as well as the other usual foes, plus she could help out with a nice mundane longbow when avoiding Broodmother spittle.