101 réponses à ce sujet

[WhyIsThisNecessary]

Seriously guys. Pro-Tip:



Alright? It's not that hard. You just standard in a big group and point sharpened sticks ("pike" or "spear") at them. Even peasants can do it.

Now, I know that just running at the other team waving your sword and yelling is very dramatic, but I've got something that's even better: what we on Earth like to call "riding a horse"



A horse is not as good as a griffin, but they're not extinct. Note, again the pointy stick ("lance"). This transfers the momentum of the horses charge into the recipient of the charge. With enough of these, you can charge right at the other team and it looks even more spectacular: charging at the front is good*, charging at the side or rear is even better.

* Note: do not do this if anyone ever invents guns.

[Brockololly]

Yeah, I really wish Ostagar and more of the battles made more sense. With Ostagar at least if you had a better feel for what was going on tactically, you might feel a bit more understanding for Loghain's decision. But as it stands he just seems terribly villainous there.

Its just that Ostagar seemed like a fairly decent defensive choke point but awww screw that, lets charge!

Modifié par Brockololly, 22 juin 2010 - 07:54 .

[Wotannanow]

War is all about the troops you and your enemy have. I agree that a cavalry charge is devastating given the right circumstances. But a cavalry charge will be stopped right in it's tracks by a unit of pike-men backed up by archers.



Agincourt is an exellent example of how footsoldiers made mince-meat of superior numbers of enemy cavalry. The English victory is credited to the longbow, but in reality the French weren't killed by the arrows. They wore steel armour that the iron tipped English arrows had no chance to pierce. But a hail of arrows hitting any rider will knock him out of his saddle -- it's a plain effect of mass and momentum. Add to this that there were many thousands of French troops pressing forward, the ground was muddy from rain making it impossible for a fallen knight to get back up. The French killed most of their own by trampling them to death.

[EmperorSahlertz]

In a world where some people can throw explosives with sheer force of will, tight formations is a bad idea...

[WhyIsThisNecessary]

Well, the Dark Spawn don't have pikemen, and I doubt they could be trained to fight as a unit effectively, so there's not a lot of point in them being pikemen either. I agree that a cavalry charge probably wasn't appropriate for Ostagar, but if they're going to insist on charging like they did in the cut-scene they might as well get hold of some horses and make the most of it*.

A cavalry charge by Loghain might have worked, though. Then again, even a Thadas style mass infantry charge might have worked if brain-trust Calin hadn't decided to break formation by ordering a charge for basically no good reason. No wonder he walked away in disgust.

* Thadas actually has horses, right? I noted the presense of horsecarts and presumed the existence of horses to go with them.

In a world where some people can throw explosives with sheer force of will, tight formations is a bad idea...

We still used tight formations in a world where people can throw explosives with sheer force of gunpowder. I suspect a Napoleonic period army had more artillery than a Dragon Age army has mages.

Modifié par WhyIsThisNecessary, 22 juin 2010 - 09:12 .

[Wotannanow]

Trying to understand the events at Ostagar.

The plan to lure the darkspawn to attack King Cailan's position and have Loghain's men attack the darkspawn's flank was a sound tactical choice. But Loghain had made up his plans far in advance. He was never going to attack. Without his troops, the battle was a slaughter... and even with them, the outcome was uncertain due to the sheer number of darkspawn.

[WhyIsThisNecessary]

I'm not convinced that the game definitively states that Loghain's motive was treason, rather than simply trying to preserve at least some of the Ostagar troops. There's evidence for both explanations.

[Costin_Razvan]

In my opinion, a shieldwall formation would have been far more bloody effective at Ostagar then a Spear Wall. Certainly pikes have their advantages, but they are basically useless against Ogres...at a least a shield wall won't collapse fully under the charge of an ogre.

I also would have replaced every archer with crossbowmen. Set up pitch on the ground before the army, set it on fire. When the darkspawn emerge from the fire, charge them with the mabari....( I would also have probably dug a ditch and filled it with sharpened stakes )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 juin 2010 - 11:42 .

[electricfish]

WhyIsThisNecessary wrote...

I'm not convinced that the game definitively states that Loghain's motive was treason, rather than simply trying to preserve at least some of the Ostagar troops. There's evidence for both explanations.

While it heavily hints that Loghain was hedging bets that the Darkspawn would kill off his men in the tower to prevent the signal fire from being lit, I don't think that many people take into account the Archdemon's capacity for getting into Grey Wardens' heads. If it can see and hear the thoughts of Darkspawn, why wouldn't it poke through Duncan's head to find out the plan? Since Duncan was the oldest Grey Warden in the war council bunch, he had a greater connection to the Taint/Archdemon than your character or Alistair.
Further evidence of this is shown later in the game at a cutscene, but I can't really explain more without giving away spoilers.

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

Anyway if you have noticed the terrain at the battle of Ostagar you can see that there is a very dense woodland this wud stop any momentum of a cavalry charge due to the fact they cannot wheel about and would have been slaughtered...



A more convenient strategy would have been to place sword and shield warriors at the front of the line holding a firm position while archers and ballista's fired on the back ranks of the Darkspawn.



Charging from a defensive position probably was the worst decision he could have made. Loghains strategy was a good strategy and there is a good reason that Loghain did not commit his forces to battle for 3 good reasons.



1. The darkspawn numbers would have overwhelmed his troops

2. The provocation by Cailan at the war council and is obsession with glory

3. And Cailans charge quite obviously broke his battle plan due to any self respecting good general knows never to give up a defensive position without good reason that Cailan did not have.



Loghains decision at Ostagar was a sound one and he even urges Cailan not to be in the front of the fight.... Loghain performed a tactical withdrawal yet it is his actions after the battle and a few questionable decisions leading up to it that turned him into a tyrant

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

Also the OP forgets that there is no pike/spear weaponry in the game yet he believes that could of been an effective battle strategy

[David Gaider]

Loghain's forces were originally supposed to be on horseback... but sadly making horse models and riding animations is neither as cheap nor as easy as making smart comments on a forum.

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

That made me laugh... I applause you sir

[imperialus1]

OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor wrote...

Also the OP forgets that there is no pike/spear weaponry in the game yet he believes that could of been an effective battle strategy

The spear is arguably the oldest weapon known to man other than a blunt stick... It's inconcivable that it would not exist.  Heck, we still use spears.  They're a bit more multipurpose now, and we call them bayonetts but still.

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

You are putting your argument into the context of our world however you forget to put it into the context of there's.



Even though it may inconceivable that it does not exist, it doesn't from what we know

and if the developers wanted us to have spears we would do.





However we do not and by saying using spears is a good strategy goes against the lore of what we have learnt and so is a wrong statement to make.

[ponozsticka]

WhyIsThisNecessary wrote...

Now, I know that just running at the other team waving your sword and yelling is very dramatic, but I've got something that's even better: what we on Earth like to call "riding a horse"

Horses were in Ferelden 30 years ago then they mysteriously vanished...hey Blight is here...even Archdemon has to be fed...today its horse, tomorrow cow and day after...maybe Nessy :innocent:

Modifié par ponozsticka, 23 juin 2010 - 12:36 .

[Swoo]

David Gaider wrote...

Loghain's forces were originally supposed to be on horseback... but sadly making horse models and riding animations is neither as cheap nor as easy as making smart comments on a forum.

You had Oxen! It was a perfect opportunity to show Ferelden's resolve!

You may take our horses, but you'll never take our cavalry!

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

Ogre's like oxen with their tea and scones

[Rythlion]

Sadly, that battle does make little tactical sense... they go to the liberties to create a tight chokepoint, then rush out and forgo any advantage their plans might have given them.



Now, had Duncan and the Grey Wardens NOT been there, Loghain would have made the correct choice in withdrawing. Cailan was quite foolish. However, the Grey Wardens are needed to combat a Blight, and so Loghain should have been compelled to attempt to save them. Abandoning the Grey Wardens was a critical error, and had our Warden died, Fereldon would likely have been lost.



...also, it makes me wince, every time those dogs charge. Such blatant stupidity... the dogs alongside Ash Warriors should have charged into the Darkspawn flank, later in the fight! Agh...

[Rythlion]

Sadly, that battle does make little tactical sense... they go to the liberties to create a tight chokepoint, then rush out and forgo any advantage their plans might have given them.

Now, had Duncan and the Grey Wardens NOT been there, Loghain would have made the correct choice in withdrawing. Cailan was quite foolish. However, the Grey Wardens are needed to combat a Blight, and so Loghain should have been compelled to attempt to save them. Abandoning the Grey Wardens was a critical error, and had our Warden died, Fereldon would likely have been lost.

...also, it makes me wince, every time those dogs charge. Such blatant stupidity... the dogs alongside Ash Warriors should have charged into the Darkspawn flank, later in the fight! Agh...

EDIT: Double post.... ARGH...

Modifié par Rythlion, 23 juin 2010 - 01:48 .

[Swoo]

Rythlion wrote...

Sadly, that battle does make little tactical sense... they go to the liberties to create a tight chokepoint, then rush out and forgo any advantage their plans might have given them.

Now, had Duncan and the Grey Wardens NOT been there, Loghain would have made the correct choice in withdrawing. Cailan was quite foolish. However, the Grey Wardens are needed to combat a Blight, and so Loghain should have been compelled to attempt to save them. Abandoning the Grey Wardens was a critical error, and had our Warden died, Fereldon would likely have been lost.

...also, it makes me wince, every time those dogs charge. Such blatant stupidity... the dogs alongside Ash Warriors should have charged into the Darkspawn flank, later in the fight! Agh...

Ok firstly, why the heck is this page layout so screwed up? Muy annoying.

Secondly, Loghain didn't believe the Warden's were necissary to defeat the Blight. In fact he's highly skeptical when Riordan pulls them into the room to explain why they must be the ones to land the killing blow. Up until that time he thought it was just myth or posturing that a Warden had to be the one to do the deed. Yes if he had managed the Ostagar 'maneuver' and then finished the Warden's off in Ferelden it was pretty much a certainty that the nation would have fallen for his folly.

I've wondered before why you would run out of a chokepoint into a superior horde's numbers, but who knows maybe they had to push the Darkspawn back so that Loghain had room to get behind them and charge. Some plot things are better not dug into too deeply I suppose.

Edit: Mixed up Thedas with Ferelden.

Modifié par Swoo, 23 juin 2010 - 02:20 .

[Kwanzaabot]

Bah, who needs tactics when you have wizards who can blow crap up?

[TheMadCat]

Damn double post.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 23 juin 2010 - 02:47 .

[TheMadCat]

Kwanzaabot wrote...

Bah, who needs tactics when you have wizards who can blow crap up?

Well, when both sides have wizards that can blow crap up you kind of do need tactics.

Anyways, I always thought Loghain purposely came up with a lousy strategy to make sure the battle wasn't winnable in order to do "what was best" for Ferelden. Or maybe the people at BioWare are completely clueless on military tactics. I don't know, it's one or the other.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 23 juin 2010 - 02:48 .

[metatheurgist]

David Gaider wrote...

Loghain's forces were originally supposed to be on horseback... but sadly making horse models and riding animations is neither as cheap nor as easy as making smart comments on a forum.

Internet connection: $30/month
Computer : $1000
Chance to make smart-ass comments on forums: Priceless...but still less than horse animations.

WhyIsThisNecessary wrote...

I'm not convinced that the game definitively states that Loghain's motive was treason, rather than simply trying to preserve at least some of the Ostagar troops. There's evidence for both explanations.

Arl Howe slaughtered the Couslands well before the attack on Ostagar. The only way he could be sure that the King wouldn't kick his ass for that was because he knew that Cailan would be dead soon. That meant the plan to kill the King was hatched long before Ostagar. Since Logain was instrumental in that death he had to be complicit.

On topic - I was very amused when I returned to Ostagar to find that the Darkspawn did a much better job of fortifying the location than the humans ever did.