101 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Snugglepus wrote...
Every time you post on the forums it seems like your game budged is 25 cents or something

That's what it sometimes feels like, yes.

As for the forum posts, that generally happens because fans seem to think that money is no object-- whereas we have a LOT of features to squeeze into an RPG and we have to weigh the cost of each vs. their relative value/pupose in the rest of the game. Horses are, frustratingly, one of those things which consistently always costs more than it's worth in a game where horse-riding isn't a big focus.

Modifié par David Gaider, 23 juin 2010 - 09:58 .

[Arttis]

Well you could try to find volunteers.

[dielveio]

David, it might has been answered before, but there really no way to spears and pikes be used?

[Arttis]

2h swords are the closest your ever gonna get.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
 Horses are, frustratingly, one of those things which consistently always costs more than it's worth in a game where horse-riding isn't a big focus.

Well, the solution to that is to just make horses a larger focus of the game, right?

[Arttis]

Make horse riding and fighting how you travel from one area to another.

[Kail Ashton]

lol i just always considerd that Feralden is a backwoods hic country of the kingdoms

[WhyIsThisNecessary]

Xandurpein wrote...
They did not think they where Spartans. The Spartans, and the other greek citizen states invented the spear and pike using formations. They where the same type of elite citizen infantry as the Swiss was during the rennaissance. If anything they attacked like barbarians.

300 joke.

[David Gaider]

dielveio wrote...
David, it might has been answered before, but there really no way to spears and pikes be used?

The questionable element isn't the model (which is easy to make) but the fact that unless you wish it to share animations with, say, 2-handed swords it would need an entirely different set of combat animations to support it. Which can be done, but combat animations are the most complex sets of animations you can get... how many of those do we need? Especially when there are more fundamental weapons that can already share a combat animation set (it would be far easier to add, say, a flail or a club than a whip or a spear).

The other option is to have such weapons only in the hands of enemies-- so their basic combat sets are included with thier model (they don't use any other sort of weapon).

All of these are possible, of course, but what it boils down to is needing to include a whole variety of systems in an RPG that most other games do not need to deal with-- and thus we have to pick and choose which ones are most important to us. With luck, once we've created that foundation we can build on it in future iterations and start getting some of those "nice to haves". Such is the luxury of making sequels, such as BG2 or ME2 (provided, of course, you don't go back and start changing any fundamentals at the same time).

This is all nonsense-talk to you guys, I'm sure. There is always an element of "gee, but wouldn't it be nice if we could just..." among us developers as well, but that's the explanation for how these things generally end up being what they are.

[attend]

I would rather Bioware pay from the budget for the things that made DA great (such as story, RPG elements, atmosphere, and NPC interactions) than another weapon used in a battle scene.



The scene brought an epic feel to it and is one of my favorite parts of the game. Hats off and head nod to Bioware. There is always the next game to add those items in as Mr Gaider said.



I get the feeling threads like this come from playing the game multiple times. The first time I saw the Ostagar battle scene, I turned out the lights and my eyes got big. I hunched over my keyboard in total absorption. Completely fascinated. I believe I threatened my family's lives if they bothered me. Now I will run to change out the laundry as some scenes play.

[WhyIsThisNecessary]

I wouldn't expect to see spears and pikes in the actual game (unless, of course, you want formations in there as well, which I don't think anyone does), I just would have liked to have seen them in the Ostagar cut scene. Just to get a sense that there's more to military tactics in Thadas than running at people. Does that make a difference? Are the cut scenes just done with in game animations?



I suppose you could have got round the animation problem with selective editing. Like, we see overhead the line of spears and the dark spawn horde charging the line. We see the formation being smashed by ogres, then a disorganized melee: the infantry are being killed by dark spawn. King Cailin, his knights and the Grey Wardens mount a counter charge to try and salvage the situation - they make some progress, but are ultimately overwhelmed and killed. Loghain quits the field.

[Arttis]

David Gaider wrote...

dielveio wrote...
David, it might has been answered before, but there really no way to spears and pikes be used?

The questionable element isn't the model (which is easy to make) but the fact that unless you wish it to share animations with, say, 2-handed swords it would need an entirely different set of combat animations to support it. Which can be done, but combat animations are the most complex sets of animations you can get... how many of those do we need? Especially when there are more fundamental weapons that can already share a combat animation set (it would be far easier to add, say, a flail or a club than a whip or a spear).

The other option is to have such weapons only in the hands of enemies-- so their basic combat sets are included with thier model (they don't use any other sort of weapon).

All of these are possible, of course, but what it boils down to is needing to include a whole variety of systems in an RPG that most other games do not need to deal with-- and thus we have to pick and choose which ones are most important to us. With luck, once we've created that foundation we can build on it in future iterations and start getting some of those "nice to haves". Such is the luxury of making sequels, such as BG2 or ME2 (provided, of course, you don't go back and start changing any fundamentals at the same time).

This is all nonsense-talk to you guys, I'm sure. There is always an element of "gee, but wouldn't it be nice if we could just..." among us developers as well, but that's the explanation for how these things generally end up being what they are.

Make the handle  be half the weapon and the blade the other half.Give it the 2h animations and call it a spear.Of course people would complain and whine its not really a spear and some such but at least you gave them a little extra.Use the 2h talent tree also LOL.
Make the spear fast and weak.Sort of like dagger.

[WhyIsThisNecessary]

I get the feeling threads like this come from playing the game multiple times. The first time I saw the Ostagar battle scene, I turned out the lights and my eyes got big. I hunched over my keyboard in total absorption. Completely fascinated. I believe I threatened my family's lives if they bothered me. Now I will run to change out the laundry as some scenes play.

The first time you see the Ostagar cutscene is unnerving. You kind of know what's coming. You know full well that battles that take place at the start of games/movies/books rarely go well for the good guys. You know Bioware games usually start with some kind of mass slaughter. You know that in fiction, Mentors don't tend to survive beyond the first act. But because of how well done the build up is, you're invested in the outcome by this point. You want them to win. You know something has to go wrong for the rest of the game to happen... but maybe it'll just go a bit wrong? Maybe it'll be a stalemate? Maybe they'll get a mauling but hold on to the fortress? Maybe they'll beat the Dark Spawn off, only for the arch daemon to escape? Then they try the archers, which don't have much effect. Then they unlesh the war dogs, which does even less. You realize at this point that nothing they're doing is even slowing the dark spawn, and you realize they're probably going to lose. The way this is done is clever, no one says "well, that didn't work" or "oh ****, we're going to die": you can just see the arrows take down a few dark spawn in an ocean of them, or the dogs getting overwhelmed. It suggests what is about to happen, it doesn't tell you; in the story, they haven't actually lost yet. Maybe there's still a chance? Then they charge, and you're like "What?! What are you doing? What are you doing? Don't do that!" And then they all get killed. It's like watching a car accident in slow motion.

[Gaxhung]

Horses aren't such a big deal because we travel by "Map time" anyway and not real time like in MMOs.

But if you have horses, then you need pikemen too to counter units on horseback. And probably a whole horse related ecosystem worth of game assets, like stables and people walking horses, horse wagons, fancy horse carraiges and so on and so forth and all the related sound effects too.

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

Tbh a game like dragon age doesn't need horses. You travel map time and because Bioware games are more story driven than action driven the time and money needed to make horses integral into the game i believe would take away time need for the story.



In my opinion i would rather Bioware spend more money paying for writers and artists who can bring the world alive over having horses... Also horses are more for free roam games and as we know Bioware has not recently made any free roam games

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

"Laughs" Oh certainly, Loghain is that idiotic to plan a charge straight into an army that outnumbers him 4 to 1 or something like that.

Please...and even IF Loghain had planned the charge, the fact Cailan was so stupid to follow it to the letter doesn't paint him in a better light.

The fact of the matter is that you cannot blame Ostagar squarely on Loghain. Cailan was the man in charge, whether he allowed Loghain to make the plans all by himself ( which I find laughable given what we hear from Loghain's and Cailan's guards )  and if those plans were idiotic is largely unimportant. As Commander in Chief Cailan gets the blame for the failure of the battle, as every decision regarding the battle was his to make in the end, not anyone else's.

You know, when a general renowned for getting the country free from enemy occupation insists the additional forces are not necessary, does not suggest the odds are against, and when his previous plans of battles with this very enemy from just few days ago did work splendidly, exactly why would you second-guess his decisions? After all, every sign points simply to the man actually knowing very well what he's doing.

And it's seriously ridiculous to claim Cailan is to blame because 'every decision was his in the end' when it was Loghain's entirely own decision not to follow the plan of battle he'd prepared himself. A decision he didn't share with anyone, including his Commander in Chief who didn't get a say in it but is then somehow supposed to be responsible for this treason and the results of it?

[Cancermeat]

I think the next DLC pack should be:" The Darkspawn ate our horses"

Modifié par Cancermeat, 25 juin 2010 - 09:01 .

[Giantevilhead]

In terms of game mechanics, there's no real tactical advantage to having spears and horses in a real time RPG. A spear will work basically the same as a sword, all it'll add is some new combat animation. Same with horses, it'll add some speed, extra hit points, and maybe a special attack.



If this were a turned based game then these things would matter. Spears and Halberds would be reach weapons that allow you to attack from outside the range of swords and allow for charge attacks and such. Horses would give you the ability to trample and lets your character move without using up their action.



Alas, we probably won't ever see a turn based RPG by a major developer.

[hero 2]

David Gaider wrote...

we have to weigh the cost of each vs. their relative value/pupose in the rest of the game. Horses are, frustratingly, one of those things which consistently always costs more than it's worth

You say, "too expensive", I see, "business opportunity". I wonder if a company like Bioware would import said combat animations should someone like Speedtree come to them with a system?

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

To be perfectly honest i don't even want horses into the dragon age game, it would break the mechanics i love



But even though spears are not necessary the fact they are not in the game leaves something to be desired for alot of people, however i am perfectly fine with the weapon types we currently have, but would prefer more specialisations just to mix it up abit

[nitenman]

Spears and pikes tactics were mostly used when outfiting units of peasants and militia...Do U feel like being a peasant warrior in a game like DA:O... it's a good way to start in a pen and paper RPG, but usually, players will quickly cast away a spear for a good old 3 feet of steel... crazy spears moves is something that belong to Asian Warfare imagery...(we are not playing Dynasty Warriors I mean...)plus Fereldan being an equivalent of middle age Britain, horseback tactics are not part of their culture, they uses footmen and wardogs (wardogs match badly with warhorses) and the Fereldan Valley is not made for horse breeding (contrary to Orlaisian Plains). don't forget that ferelden got its first king 400 years ago. they are still a semi barbarian culture with barbarian warfare tradition. so About the Charge tactic, well remember Braveheart... now that's EPIC...

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

I agree that they seem Barbaric but in fact during the 1200's and 1300's in Britain Nobles often fought and killed each other for land... However the fact that you say they are a barbarian culture so they can charge goes against lore, charging warriors would not of been able to defeat Orlesian Cavalry that are so feared in Ferelden.



Loghain is an amazing tactician and would not have ordered a charge that would lead to inevitable destruction

[kyuubifred]

I know absolutely nothing about military strategy, but a lot of conversations seemed to point towards the fact that Loghain was going a bit mad. Eamon, Cauthrien, Anora... they didn't understand why he was doing what he was doing, as he had always been loyal and rational up until that point. I've heard it suggested on these forums that he may have been suffering from Darkspawn corruption, though it was never hinted at in-game. I think we can assume that either his strategical ability had been compromised or that his poor battle plan had been meant to kill Cailan all along. Most likely, some of both are true.

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

I don't believe loghain intentionally set out to kill Cailan more so he took the opportunity to betray his closets friends son when he had the chance.... I do however see your point where u say he has gone mad, Any person who has witnessed there parents murdered and fought a war of independence only to watch it fall into either orlesian or darkspwan hands must go abit loony

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

As for the forum posts, that generally happens because fans seem to think that money is no object-- whereas we have a LOT of features to squeeze into an RPG and we have to weigh the cost of each vs. their relative value/pupose in the rest of the game. Horses are, frustratingly, one of those things which consistently always costs more than it's worth in a game where horse-riding isn't a big focus.

I'm just curious now, but couldn't this (getting a reasonable horse model done and set of animations to match) be viewed rather like long-term investment, to be then reused in more than one title rather than done just for one game? Horses are after all more universal assets than say, pieces of architecture done in specific style. Also, having it available might actually allow the designers to enhance their future games and/or expansions with more of horse-riding elements at fairly low cost since the hurdle of "first off, we'd need the horses" would be removed...