101 réponses à ce sujet

[nikki191]

SirEmilCrane wrote...

Cavalry and pikes are mentioned in a conversation between Wynne and Alistair. They just weren't included in-game for whatever reason.

However the battle was still winnable, the retreat certainly didn't need to be sounded just yet. Had Cailan held his position then Loghain executed a flank or even better, an encirclement then it would have been Cannae all over agian.

i was suprised not to see pike formations at ostagar, but ferelden very much has a saxon feel about it, so i was expecting to at least see a shield wall, i was also suprised not to see at least a trench infront of the defences.

personally i dont think a pike formation would be effective against the darkspawn purely on the fact of ogre shock tropps and the fact genlock are well short

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

Where do people have this idea that pikemen would not be able to beat ogres? Sure they could pound the formation with throwing rocks but pikemen are used to kill big creatures such as horsemen and pikemen....



Seeing as ogres use there hands to kill most of there foes a pikemen formation would stop the ogres being able to get into fighting range

[Arttis]

True but the ogre has tremendous regeneration.We do not see it in the game though.

[Xandurpein]

Actually light missile armed troops may be a possible answer to the ogres too. When the roman legions faced enemy war elephants, they didn't counter them with heavy legions that could get trampled, they used light missile armed troops that stayed out of range and harassed the elephants with arrows and spears, until the creatures would go mad and stampede away.



It depends on the intelligence and discipline on the ogres really. Spears and pikes are always a good choice against beasts, like childer, that charge bodily into combat, because the charging beast would impale themselves on the spears, that can be braced with the reverese end in the ground.

[Costin_Razvan]

Pikes, Crossbows, Halberds, Bills, Spears, Javelins. All have the capability to take down an Ogre, though I would suggest using crossbows.

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Pikes, Crossbows, Halberds, Bills, Spears, Javelins. All have the capability to take down an Ogre, though I would suggest using crossbows.

Better yet, use arbalests (really big heavy crossbows).

[Arttis]

Better yet use an ogre to take down an ogre.

[WhyIsThisNecessary]

The question isn't really would [historical tactic X] be effective against orges or other darkspawn, but would it be more effective than what they did in game. And the answer is almost inevitably 'yes'.



Plus, the weapons and tactics of armies in Thadas would be predominantly designed to fight other human armies, not dark spawn hordes. There would be some modification made because of the nature of the nature of the enemy but there would have been little time at Ostagar to make significant changes, thus the army and method of fighting seen at Ostagar probably reflects how most battles in the world are fought: i.e. brawls. This means that Thadas still hasn't developed any equivilent to the organised tactics seen in our world in rome (the legionary cohort), in ancient greece (phalanx) and in various other earlier cultures, because if any other empire did use these methods of fighting they'd dominant the continent. We know the Ferelden military is more or less at parity with Orlay in terms of quality, because they were able to end the occupation by force, and we know that Orlais seems to be the current local superpower.



Some might say that mages are a major difference (tight formations < spells like tempest, lighting storm, inferno etc), but I don't think we'd see mages fighting in interstate squables, because they're connected to the Chantry and, like the Chantry the Circle is a pan-national organisation. You wouldn't see Circle mages fighting on both sides in the same battle, so their military use would be limited to Exalted Marches (of which there have been eight in 900 years of history) and battles against dark spawn (four blights, so far), whatever other monsterous races inhabit the world, and the Quanari. So, I don't think magic would be a major military factor.

[Xandurpein]

I don't think that you can discount magic in war. We know that Maric personally attacked the enemy 's mage at the battle of River Dane. Mages simply represent too much combat power, that it is highly unlikely that the chantry would be able to control it. Sooner or later a monarch would be unable to resist freeing their local tower from the chantry in return for services in war, which would force others to follow suit. It's not believable that society would be able to restrict the use of magic in battle, when so much is to be gained from using it.

[Costin_Razvan]

WhyisthisNecesary: First off, Thedas has developed tactics for war akin to Medieval Europe. Although we do not see it in game, you can read of it in the book: The Stolen Throne.

As for using mages. You are incorrect. The Orlesians had a least of a few mages ( about half a dozen ) in the war against Maric and Maric himself had one mage in his army.

 Sooner or later a monarch would be unable to resist freeing their local tower from the chantry in return for services in war, which would force others to follow suit. It's not believable that society would be able to restrict the use of magic in battle, when so much is to be gained from using it.

The issue is that only Orlais could do that, and we already have Orlesian mages sent to fight in war so they don't anger the Chantry by freeing all their mages but they do allow some of them to fight.

Other countries wouldn't dare free their mages unless they wanted an Exalted March on their heads for doing so.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 juin 2010 - 11:29 .

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The issue is that only Orlais could do that, and we already have Orlesian mages sent to fight in war so they don't anger the Chantry by freeing all their mages but they do allow some of them to fight.

Other countries wouldn't dare free their mages unless they wanted an Exalted March on their heads for doing so.

Actually one possible outcome in the game, if you play a mage, is that you can ask the king to let the circle govern itself without the templars. The Tevinter empire is run by mages. There is also no mention of a possible exalted march, as far as I know, against the Grey Wardens during the rebellion of Sophia Dryden and she used blood magic.

I doubt the chantry would declare an exalted march, just because the king of Ferelden started using mages in the war, whether it would be circle mages or apostates.

If anything history teaches us that it's virtually impossible to put constraints on the use of military technology through moral rules. If it works in battle, it'll be used.

The Vatican tried to ban the use of crossbows in wars between christians, becauser they made it too easy for commoners to kill armored nobles, but that failed completely.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 juin 2010 - 02:28 .

[Costin_Razvan]

The Tevinter Imperium has had about four exalted marches called upon it, so they aren't the best example.

Sophia Dryden's use of blood magic wasn't that well known, since the whole thing was swept under the rug by Arland ( Maric says that the details about Dryden's rebellion is a highly valued secret ).

We see the Chantry considering an Exalted March against the dwarves for allowing mages to form their Circle in Orzammar, certainly it isn't that far fetched they would do the same with Fereldan even more so since Orlais wants to retake Fereldan and Fereldan isn't a critical supplier of lyrium as Orzammar is.

I wouldn't be so quick to compare the Vatican to the Chantry. The chantry obviously has far more power then the Vatican ever did. To give an analogy I see the Chantry as a Vatican having a great deal of political power over the Holy Roman Empire at it's peak. ( which they never did )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 juin 2010 - 02:55 .

[Jeffonl1]

It is interesting to think that Cailan had intended only a short (rather damatic) charge as a diversion and only to a point based the length of his battle line (allowing momentum to assist his massed infantry) while attempting to defuse the danger of the DS spellcasters (assuming DS emissaries would not 'fire' on their own). Could Cailan had committed his force as a pinning action, to ensure the DS horde is focused on him alone, with Logains forces to attack into the flanks and rear?

Still a rather aggressive ploy

[Arttis]

human error.

[Evan748]

Id imagine that armed with the weapons they had in the cutscene standing there waiting for the darkspawn charge to hit wouldnt have helped much. By the time the King gave the order to charge the archers/balista had done there thing already. By charging at the last moment you would atleast get some momentum going (In the absence of Spearmen/Pikeman). The defensive location they chose was to limit the size of the front and the directions of attack wich it did imo. I wouldnt say the King "abandoned" a defensive location, he (or Logain) chose it and he fought on it. 

- Evan -

[AlanC9]

Xandurpein wrote...
If anything history teaches us that it's virtually impossible to put constraints on the use of military technology through moral rules. If it works in battle, it'll be used. 

The Vatican tried to ban the use of crossbows in wars between christians, becauser they made it too easy for commoners to kill armored nobles, but that failed completely.

On the flip side, nobody used chemical weapons in WW2 (well, maybe the Japanese did s little). And foraging for supplies went out of use for about 150 years after the Thirty Years War discredited the practice. If all sides think that a practice isn't going to be an advantage for their side, it can be banned. 

But given the situation with the qunari, it's impossible for the nations of Thedas to do the same with magic.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 juin 2010 - 04:04 .

[wanderon]

Swoo wrote...


Ok firstly, why the heck is this page layout so screwed up? Muy annoying.

I suspect its from the oversized banner that  Costin_Razvan has in his sig in one of the posts prior to yours - just one of many glitches on this site that have yet to be tweaked out...

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I wish there was some halberds in DA. I loved using them in Demon's Souls!

[Nikephoros]

I've skipped most of the prior discussion, so if I rehash something, I apologize.



Here's what I noticed. Their archers were armed with longbows. They should have been firing volleys well before they did. Instead they got one big volley off, then they sent out the hounds.



I find it hard to believe that a kingdom that can afford to armor their troops that well can't instil some discipline. Their charge should have been orderly, instead of a huge mob. Granted, that's all academic. They should have charged only at the last minute (Although I think most soldiers had shields, so they could have formed a shield wall instead of charging--Again, heavily armored troops, but you can't have them form up in a line --Hell, Charles Martel in our world had disciplined infantry, so I don't know why they couldn't in their world)



Of course, King Cailan was a horrendously weak ruler...

[Gaxhung]

wanderon wrote...

Swoo wrote...


Ok firstly, why the heck is this page layout so screwed up? Muy annoying.

I suspect its from the oversized banner that  Costin_Razvan has in his sig in one of the posts prior to yours - just one of many glitches on this site that have yet to be tweaked out...

Nah his sig has spaces in it, HTML will do line breaks automatically on spaces and hypens, THIS is the culprit -- OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor

See how it only breaks at the hypen.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

If I were in the war council, I probably would've told those idiots to put at least some traps around Ostagar. I also wished we could've seen some of the mages throwing some mad spells at the Darkspawn. I have no clue how they lost that battle. The Darkspawn didn't even have the upper-hand since they were practically running into a slaughter (no formations, and especially no flanking postions). Oh yea, the Darkspawn didn't even look to have any siege weapons like ladders, but I did see some trebuche/catapult rocks thrown into the walls so maybe they did...

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

They had some sort of siege weapons seeing as they destroy some of the Ballistas on the bridge towards the tower Ishal. The battle of Ostagar is a common case of allowing yourself to be overwhelmed by significant numbers, this is why the Romans were so powerful over the tribes of Gaul etc... Due to their discipline and formations which at the battle of Ostagar there was little.



Even though we can debate this subject all day i have to say that if there was not a charge then the battle would of turned out differently and for the storyline and game the charge was needed to progress the story!!

[Xandurpein]

Nikephoros wrote...

I find it hard to believe that a kingdom that can afford to armor their troops that well can't instil some discipline. Their charge should have been orderly, instead of a huge mob. Granted, that's all academic. They should have charged only at the last minute (Although I think most soldiers had shields, so they could have formed a shield wall instead of charging--Again, heavily armored troops, but you can't have them form up in a line --Hell, Charles Martel in our world had disciplined infantry, so I don't know why they couldn't in their world)

Quality of armour and discipline is two completely different things. Medieval feudal troops where, with few exceptions, not very disciplined. The code of the knights emphasized individual prowess, not unit cohesiveness. The french knights lost many battles against the english during the hundred years war, because even if the french knights where the best, they lacked discipline.

No medieval western armies reached anything like the discipline of ancient roman or greek armies, with the possible exception of some of the knightly orders, like the Knights of st John, and maybe the Templars. Although even these managed to lose battles because of ill-timed charges.

Charles Martel had some reasonably disciplined frankish infantry, but he is really from a different era. Charles Martel is as much from the Dark ages as from the Middle ages, before the feudal military system had evolved. Early frankish armies where based on infantry on a more tribal pattern. The feudal armies where based on mounted knights. You can't really compare the two.

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

I agree with Xandurpein's point about armour and discipline. If you study battles in detail such as Bannocburn you can see that ill disciplined heavily armoured troops can be defeated by poorly armoured disciplined troops.



If anything Discipline is more important than armour in the run of things however armour does give distinct advantages. At the battle of Ostagar this lack of discipline led to the destruction of Cailans army

[Arttis]

Loghain says to the city elf you dont seem half as green as some of our men.

I imagine Cailan got all the green men.