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Some tactics examples

Débuté par Guest_werwulf222_* , juin 24 2010 07:06

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#1
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 24 juin 2010 - 07:06

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Tactics Examples

I wrote the following because I wanted to give something back for the great enjoyment I have had playing this game,  and also because I dislike micromanaging party members during battles. My goal is to get through the game on hard difficulty or higher without once having to micromanage a party member, as well as personally surviving myself of course.  

I play Iron Man games.  

Playing this way has given me a lot of enjoyment because it keeps the game fresh even on the easy sections.

I will micromanage of course if my survival is at stake during a battle, but I have found that if the battle has
deteriorated to that point that I have seriously erred somewhere or the party is outclassed by a wide margin.  

If party member tactics are set correctly, if the battles are fought using tactics and terrain intelligently, and if the player has had a little experience (or a lot) on a particular quest, most of the battles even on hard difficulty are fairly straightforward.  

But even then the PC can still be killed if he gets overconfident and starts playing too bravely.

I got surrounded and overwhelmed by the wolves on the deserted battlefield as a 2H warrior in light armor once, because I thought I had the game wrapped up. Overconfidence can kill you in an Iron man game.

Unless you are playing close to real time combat though, tactics aren't really even necessary; you can always use the pause button.


Ali's Korcari Wilds tactics behaviour

In general, he does everything you would expect him to correctly and relatively intelligently without
freezing or toggling weapons.


To use these lists as written you will need to have installed in your game

Advanced Tactics mod
Unlock 30 tactics slots mod



Both mods are available in the forums projects section and are easy to install.


beh = behaviour
nv = nearest visible
attk = attack
attkd = attacked
stam = stamina
deep mush = deep mushrooms
hp lp = health poultice least powerful
expl = self - game mode - exploration
rng = range or ranged
tgt = target
nmy = enemy
EorH = elite or higher
mag = magic

Disclaimer:  Last time I tested these lists, they worked OK.  YMMV


Ali's Korcari Wilds tactics list and template

1 self using rng attk jmp 10
2 self surr by no nmy beh Defensive
3 stam <20% deep mush
4 health < 20% hp lp
5 expl jmp 18
6 self surr by 2 beh cautious
7 self attkd by rng shield cover
8 tgt any shield pumm
9 tgt any shield bash
10 tgt uses rng mr to lr attack
11 tgt EorH attack
12 tgt using mag attack attack
13 self attkd by melee sw mel wpn
14 self most nmy using rng attk jmp 20
15 self 1+ nmy alive jmp 27
16 nmy EorH jmp 28
17 nmy nv mage jmp 26
18 self game mode expl beh default
19 game mode expl sw rng wpn
20 self 5 creatures dead jmp 25
21 self most nmy using melee attk jmp 25
22 self attkd by melee jmp 30
23 nmy using rng attk mr to lr beh ranged
24 self combat beh ranged
25 nmy nv attack
26 nmy nv mage attack
27 nmy tgt of control attack
28 nmy EorH shield bash
29 nmy attacking main chr shield bash
30 nmy attacking Ali shield bash



Jori Korcari wilds

1 health <40% hp lp
2 stam <20% deep mush
3 expl jmp 20

4 hero attkd mel jmp 6

5 self using melee jmp 12
6 hero attkd mel jmp 16
7 self using rnged beh rnged


8 tgt attacking main chr attack
9 self attkd mel beh passive
10 tgt using mag attack


11 self using rnged jmp 22
12 tgt using mel flank pomm strk
13 tgt any pomm strk
14 tgt rank norm higher sunder arm
15 tgt health <30% mighty blow

16 ally being mel attk beh defensive
17 ally being attkd mel sw mel wpn
18 self attkd mel pomm strk

19 self using melee indom
20 expl deac indom
21 expl default beh
22 expl sw rng wpn

23 nmy nv mage attack
24 nmy nv attack
25 nmy tgt of main attack

Jory will switch to melee weapons when an ally is melee attacked. He will not switch back to ranged
weapons until exploration mode is entered.

If using a bow, he will evade melee attacks until he makes the weapon switch.


Daveth Korcari wilds

1 self health <40% hp lp
2 self stam <20% deep mush
3 expl jmp 18
4 self being attkd mel 15
5 self using mel jmp 12
6 self using rng attk beh ranged
7 tgt sr pass beh
8 tgt using magic pinning shot
9 tgt using mel or rng pin shot
10 tgt attk main chr attack
11 tgt attk ali attack

12 self not att mel rng beh
13 self not att mel sw rng wpn
14 self not att mel jmp 23

15 self attkd by mel sw mel wpn
16 self attkd by mel beh defensive
17 self attkd by mel dirty fight

18 expl def beh
19 expl stealth
20 exp sw rng wpn


21 nmy nv mage attack
22 nmy attk main chr attack
23 nmy nv attack
24 nmy tgt main attack
25 grey


I have included these lists, because they were the ones I used while I was testing Ali's tactics.

QUIRKS OF THE TACTICS SYSTEM AND STUFF THAT'S GOOD TO KNOW (1.03)


Target rules only fire if an NPC already has a target selected, either from manual intervention, or from an entry on the enemy list. In other words, use a target rule when you want the NPC to take action on a target that he has already got selected, do NOT try to use the target rules to select a target from among a group of enemies.

For selecting a specific target from among a group of enemies, use the enemy command. For more than 1 enemy selection, be sure to place them in the order you want them selected. When the enemy command fires it will also set this enemy as the NPC target, and any appropriate target rules earlier in the list will now work next time the list is reset.

Behaviours should be mutually exclusive to work properly, in other words find a way to set behaviour such that both rules cannot be true at the same time, or you risk having the character toggle behaviours and appearing to freeze. If it's necessary to use different commands that are not mutually exclusive, try to think ahead and choose commands that are not likely to be true during the same battle at the same time.


Ranged behaviour causes the NPC to shoot at the PC target as soon as the yellow circles appear, but the character might not follow the PC correctly in exploration mode if you try to leave behaviour as ranged during exploration.  Setting ranged behaviour in the book also causes an NPC to switch to ranged weapons
automatically if he was using melee weapons just before the rule fired.  That works for warriors and rogues,
I can't say about mages at this point, it might be necessary to use a switch command as well as the behaviour
switch.

Passive behaviour works correctly when you want a bow  or staff equipped npc to avoid melee encounters, but might cause problems when PC is shooting at distant targets. A passive NPC in this case will probably not shoot with the PC and wait until the target gets closer.

Aggressive NPC's can get your party killed. In general, the NPC's do not use game world positioning very well. They move too close to the enemy when ranged, and do not move far enough away from bosses when passive. Agressive warriors in particular will go chasing after enemies a long distance away, even if hurting, even if the rest of the group is in no position to support them. Use with care, even late game.

Defensive behaviour in my opinion is the best general behaviour for a warrior, especially dog. It will keep him  from attacking most distant enemies, move him back towards the PC when his target is dead, and in general keeps him from stupidly getting himself killed and putting the rest of the party at risk.


**"Self: using melee attack" quirk**

A "self using melee jmp" only appears to work correctly the first time through, if the jmp is to a "switch to melee weapons" command.

In other words, you expect it to make the jump unconditionally if the warrior has melee weapons equipped and in most cases this is what will happen, EXCEPT to a switch to melee weapons command target.

If the jmp is to the command "switch to melee weapons", it will work as intended the first time through, because the sw to melee weapons effect can occur. But the second time through, the effect cannot occur because the character already has melee weapons equipped and the "self using melee attack jmp" fails and falls through to the rule next in the list.

BUT, if the jmp is not to a sw command, it usually works as expected and makes the jmp as expected.

This was the most annoying quirk in the entire game for me, and took the longest to understand, causing a lot of weapons toggling frustration. I expected the self using melee command to act unconditionally and it did not when paired with the sw to mel wpn target.

**List Algorithm, Behaviour toggling, weapon toggling**

You must take into consideration the behaviour of the list algorithm.

When tactics are good, it appears that the computer simply follows the list in order from start to finish, but it does not. It restarts the list each time a rule successfully fires.

When writing tactics it is usually good enough to place them in logical order,but you MUST realize that as soon as a tactic succeeds the list is reset to the beginning.

This means that if you have just changed behaviour and a behaviour change rule that is not mutually exclusive is earlier in the list, the NPC can toggle behaviours and appear to freeze and perhaps toggle weapons as well if both rules evaluate to true.

It appears that the presets (Defender, Archer, Scrapper, etc) have error correction built in so that even with errors in structure, the tactics for those will work more or less as expected, but this is not true for the custom lists. For those the structure MUST be correct if you want the list to work properly.

You learn something new every day

Custom 1,2,3 are available for each individual character, and as long as you use save preset, you will only have to write them once for each character during the entire game. This means you have at least 90 slots to work with to make your party members fight as intelligently as they can. You may have known this from the time you started the game, but I just discovered this today and I have been playing for months. I thought custom 1,2 and 3 applied to the whole group, not each individual member.
.

Modifié par werwulf222, 04 août 2010 - 09:24 .

#2
Last Darkness
Posté 24 juin 2010 - 08:14

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Nice, I just wish there was something like this for us console users who cant use mods.

#3
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 24 juin 2010 - 08:46

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Without the ability to use those two mods I mentioned, a player will have to start tactics more slowly, use skills to add to the tactics slots if he wants to play with more slots, and progress through the levels to gain slots. This probably means more micromanagement at the beginning of the game, but by midgame there should be enough slots available to make a fairly intelligent party member.

Also, there will not be quite as many choices available for decision making rules, but I think there are still enough choices in the stock game to still make a fairly good NPC. After all, the enemies are often pretty clever in their choice of targets, and as far as I know their scripts only use the same basic tactics available to the player. Don't quote me on that because I am not absolutely sure it is true, but I doubt Bioware would gimp the player's tactics while using custom tactics for their own NPC's.

If I couldn't use the mods, I think I would rely on default behaviour as much as possible in the beginning, and only use the limited available slots for the most important survival functions such as health potions. Again this probably means more micromanagement because the default NPC's like to attack and don't always take their own state of health into consideration but I suppose that is what the pause button is for.

Modifié par werwulf222, 05 août 2010 - 02:31 .

#4
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 24 juin 2010 - 09:44

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It doesn't help the console players much who can't install mods, but if you use the "Misha the Hoarder" mod, you get a secret cache in the party camp that contains skill books as well as some other books and stuff. You can use the skill books to increase your tactics slots. If you think that is too game breaking, give 30 gold a book to Arl Eamon's knights for each book to keep yourself honest.

#5
swk3000
Posté 24 juin 2010 - 01:52

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Last Darkness wrote...

Nice, I just wish there was something like this for us console users who cant use mods.


Seconded. While this thread is useful for PC users, for us on the 360, it's rather useless. Alistair only has 4 slots at that point in the game, and the choices are very limited. For example, we can't use the Tactics list to change behaviors.

#6
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 24 juin 2010 - 05:14

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What can I say? I've always gamed on a PC.

But if I make it through one of my games and accomplish or nearly accomplish my goal of not having to micro a party member the entire game through, I'll play a stock game with no mods at all and keep track of the lists I use, the slots available at each level, skill books used, etc. etc. and add to this post. Then there will be something for console users as well.

As usual I am not claiming that any of these lists are the best, or even a good way to set NPC tactics, only that they help me survive in my games on hard level.

This post was written mostly with beginning players in mind, who are having trouble using the tactics system, mostly to provide some examples of successful behaviour switching because that is what I found most frustrating to program during the learning curve. But you make a good point.

Console users cannot use the mods, and I suppose even most beginning PC players will be using the stock game for the first little while. I guess before I switch to nightmare mode I will try a few games completely stock to see how they play out.

With only 4 tactics slots available, I would probably set up something like this

1 health
2 self attkd melee sw mel wpn
3 nmy nv attack
4 nmy tgt of control attack

With this setup I would use default behaviour to take advantage of the NPC's built in tactics, and would micro their positions a lot more than I do now. When I wanted the group to focus on killing a single target I would grey out rule 3 and target the enemy I wanted dead with the main char. For most normal battles I would enable rule 3 and use the main char to support NPC's that needed help.
Probably the first thing I would add when another slot or two became available would be a decision rule selecting rule 3 or 4 based on the threat.

Unfortunately, without access to behaviour switching, there is probably no really good way to get good behaviour from dog when PC is using ranged weapons. It's been a long time since I played a stock game, but it seems to me that without microing dog, he tends to attack too many enemies too far away during the human noble origin story, causing too many health pots to be used up and putting the party more at risk than necessary during the final Howe knight battle. If you try to avoid that behaviour by putting him on defensive behaviour and leaving him there, he won't attack the PC's targets at all while he's using a bow.

I have been playing mostly as a human noble 2H warrior for the past while, after having done DW warrior, DW rogue and Shield warrior. In the beginning I tended to rush into battle simply for the joy of watching the animations and seeing if I could survive. After learning that the AI can effectively kill the entire party even on normal by just rushing into battle I got interested in setting tactics for the NPC's to see how it would change the game.

I have been playing for months, and haven't even scratched the surface of tactical possibilites available for party members, but thankfully you don't really need killer tactics for your party members to enjoy or get through the game.

Basically, they just have to be able to protect themselves from melee attacks and use health potions. You can switch them to ranged weapons manually, so that eliminates the need for weapon switching slots. You can pause and position them manually during battle, so that basically eliminates the need for behaviour switching slots. You can pause during battle and set targets manually for each character, so that eliminates the need for threat priortization slots. Using pause and hold wisely eliminates the need for ranged behaviour slots.

For the human noble story, using dog as a lure and ranged attacks and ambushes eliminates the need for a lot of health pots. As long as your character has a stun or a knockdown you can get through most battles pretty easily, even on hard mode. and if you have both you can play a lot more aggressively than would otherwise be the case.

In fact, if you are willing to micro the battles, you don't need tactics lists at all, except perhaps for health potions. But I like to play in real time as much as possible, with a minimum of pausing and a minimum of microing the NPC's and that's what tweaked my interest in using tactics for the party.

I found that once I could depend on my NPC's not getting themselves killed by rushing into dangerous situations, the battles got a lot easier and a lot more enjoyable and that's when I started playing DiD games. But that is simply a playstyle choice that can benefit from using tactics for NPC's. A gamer certainly doesn't have to play that way to enjoy the game.

To get through or enjoy the game and the battles you certainly don't need involved tactical lists, they are simply a means to control your NPC's without having to micro them as much.

Modifié par werwulf222, 24 juin 2010 - 06:31 .

#7
swk3000
Posté 24 juin 2010 - 08:31

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Sorry. I realize I'm being a bit rude. You've gone to all this trouble, and here I am belittling it. It's just that I don't have the money to afford a PC powerful enough to run a lot of games, but everyone on these boards seems to have a PC, and to assume that everyone else has the PC version as well. I apologize.

#8
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 24 juin 2010 - 08:35

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No need to apologize. No offense taken. The only reason I have a PC powerful enough to play this game is because of an inheritance I received, which is kind of a mixed blessing.

Modifié par werwulf222, 05 août 2010 - 02:37 .

#9
Last Darkness
Posté 24 juin 2010 - 10:29

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I really hate the fact that the game shipped with alot of the AI behaviors that could be really useful, not enabled. IE Ally Dead - cast revive would be nice and such lol.

#10
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 25 juin 2010 - 01:03

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Maybe Bioware will fix that with the next patch.

#11
MindYerBeak
Posté 25 juin 2010 - 02:32

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You've obviously put a lot of work and research into this. Well done, old chaps. I've been micromanaging the battles mainly because I enjoy pausing, but I never get to see a battle from start to finish. I'm about to start a new game and will use your tactics when in the Korkari Wilds. That way I can set back and watch my Heroes fight from start to finish.



#12
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 25 juin 2010 - 05:10

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Ali New Mirror 
Use tag custom 2
Based on Ali mirror.txt with many changes
Remember to save preset custom 2 after writing list

Observe behaviour as this is a new list.

1 self health < 50% hp lp
2 self stam < 20 deep mush
3 expl jmp 28
4 hero using rng attk jmp 6
5 hero using mel attk jmp 10
6 self attkd mel beh passive
7 hero using rng sw rng wpn
8 hero using rng beh ranged
9 self using rng jmp 24
10 hero using mel beh defensive
11 hero using mel sw mel wpn
12 self attkd by rng sh cover
13 nmy nv mage jmp 25
14 ally grabbed sh bash
15 self attkd mel sh pumm
16 tgt using rng or mel sh bash
17 tgt using rng or mel sh pumm
18 nmy highest health sh bash
19 tgt health < 30 attack
20 tgt stam < 30 attack
21 nmy tgt of control attack
22 tgt med high armor sh bash
23 tgt low armor attack
24 nmy nv attack
25 nmy nv mage sh bash
26 nmy nv mage sh pumm
27 nmy nv mage attack
28 expl sw rng wpn
29 expl beh default
30 expl deac sh cover

**Note** Because of the tests at Ishal, I realize that 24 nmy nv attack should probably be the last entry in the enemies list instead of the first.  If you use this list, you can make the changes yourself.

 Here's a list of the tactics I had for Ali during Ishal, saved in custom 2 for him, while the Korcari Wilds list was in custom 1.

**Note** The list works correctly, but it might be able to be improved at lines 7 and 8.  When I wrote the original, I didn't know about automatic range behaviour weapon switching, so line 7 is probably superfluous and could be changed to another command.**

Ali still starts ranged, and for the game I just played, he had melee archer, but no overpower yet.  I always try to start my NPC's ranged, so they will take the long shots if necessary, and only switch to passive when melee attacked if I want them to continue using the bow.

The major difference between this list and the first one is that Ali mirrors  the hero's weapon state.  If the hero is ranged, he is ranged.  If the hero goes melee, he goes melee.  If he is melee, he switches behaviour to defensive, so he doesn't go chasing after enemies that are too far away.

He starts ranged when he switches to bow, and only goes passive if he is melee attacked while ranged.

Behaviour switching is in effect in the list, but if your system can't do mods, you can achieve the same effect by pausing the game, opening the tactics book, and manually switching behaviours.  As usual, the only thing to remember is to switch back to default mode when exploring or sometimes the NPC doesn't follow properly.

Ishal was a piece of cake this time around and I got the kill sequence on the Ogre.

To tell the truth, I'm not sure I completely understand the enemies command yet after all.  I set up a list for the circle mage as well, but it didn't work at all the way I expected, so I changed it for the Ogre battle.  This was his list for that battle:

1 beh passive
2 health < 60 hp mp
3 mana <40 lp mp
4 nmy nv paralye 
5 hero using melee flam wpn
6 self melee attkd arcane shield

Does anybody at all know absolutely for sure everything that the enemies command does, and how it functions?

I am pretty sure it sets the NPC target, when fired.  That part worked OK.  And when you want your NPC to toggle enemies in the battle, you set the enemy command to a talent or spell that has a cooldown, so if will fall through the next time the list resets.  That was OK.  You set the order of your enemy commands in the same order you want your NPC to attack the bad guys.  I'm pretty sure that's correct.

What I still need to understand correctly is the behaviour of nmy nv attack.

In the battle I just did, it caused the Circle mage to attack with his staff.  I knew about that, but I thought the attack would fire only 1 or 2 times and then fail, and it didn't seem to.  Once he reached that attack command, it seemed that he would just continue with staff attacks.

I have just been using enemy nv attack as basic default behaviour, if nothing else works, and it has been OK, but I would like to understand how it works when enemy commands higher in the list become available.  Does the NPC continue with the default attack, in other words does the attack command over ride everything?  Or does the list work as usual, and as soon as an earlier enemy command becomes available, that one fires and the NPC begins toggling enemies again.?   I didn't really have a chance to test it during the battles, but I suppose I could reload a save and see if I can figure it out.

Anyway, I learned yesterday or the day before that, that the custom lists apply to each individual character in the party, and as long as you save them using the preset button, you can have 3 different lists available all the time during your game for each character.  

Wonderful!  Now instead of trying to do everything in 30 slots there can be an archery list, and melee list, and a mixed melee list or something like that.  That simplifies the list writing process considerably because you don't have to pay so much attention to behaviour state, just pause and switch to the archery list when you want mostly archer talents enabled, or pause and switch to the melee list when you want mostly melee talents enabled.

This particular list is probably better than the first one I wrote, because it is more easily extendable for melee talents.  There are a lot of commands that duplicate shield bash and shield pummel, and as his talents develop, they can easily be substituted in.

As usual, I make no claims that these are good tactics at all, but they do seem to help me survive the battles on hard mode.

Modifié par werwulf222, 25 juin 2010 - 07:04 .

#13
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 25 juin 2010 - 06:22

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 I just tested the nmy commands on the 2nd floor of ishal.   The circle mage tactics list was something like this:

1 self expl jmp 6
2 self attkd melee beh passive
3 nmy nv arcane bolt
4 nmy nv attack
5 self not attkd melee beh ranged
6 expl beh default

The commands I was interested in were 3 and 4.  After taking out the genlocks and hurlocks in the 2 rooms the party did a long range attack on the hurlocks and genlocks past the ballista.  The circle mage fired the arcane bolt, then made some staff attacks, then fired the arcane bolt again, then more staff attacks.

So apparently the first idea was right after all.  nmy nv attack, if reached on the list will cause a staff attack for mages or a default attack for warriors and rogues.  

But if there is an enemies command earlier in the list that is true, once that earlier enemies command is ready, it will fire.  The list will reset and the first nmy command will fail because its on cooldown and the nmy nv attack will fire.  I guess the list resets, but because the staff attack is faster than the arcane bolt, it fires again, and maybe even a third time.  But eventually the first nmy command is ready to fire again, and the arcane bolt fires.

So you can use enemy toggling with the nmy nv attack after all.  It doesn't override the list any more than any other enemies command does, and can be safely used for the default attack.

All that's left to test now is a tgt command to attack with another true target command earlier in the list, then one last time with only a true enemy command earlier in the list.  I'm going to do that once and for all so I know, back in 20 minutes or so.


So the basic rules are:  

If you want your NPC to select an enemy from amongst a group of bad guys and make that one his target, use the enemy command.

If you want your NPC to use a talent on an already selected target, use the target commands.

Enemies commands will toggle as expected if their conditions are true.

Modifié par werwulf222, 25 juin 2010 - 07:11 .

#14
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 25 juin 2010 - 06:51

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These are the results from a couple of tests at Ishal.  The short version:  tgt attack doesn't seem to make any difference in the NPC's behaviour at all.

first case

1 expl jmp 9
2 self attkd melee
3 tgt any lightning
4 nmy nv arcane bolt
5 nmy nv attack
6 self not being attkd melee beh rng
7 expl beh default

The circle mage would fire lightning even at an already dead target, if the tgt died before the conjuration time was finished.

Arcane bolt and staff attack toggled as expected

second case


1 expl jmp 9
2 self attkd melee
3 nmy nv arcane bolt
4 tgt any lightning
5 nmy nv attack
6 self not being attkd melee beh rng
7 expl beh default

Same behaviour, he was firing lightning at dead enemies because of the conjuration time.

third case
1 expl jmp 9
2 self attkd melee
3 nmy nv arcane bolt
4 nmy nv attack
5 tgt any lightning
6 self not being attkd melee beh rng
7 expl beh default

Lightning did not fire, it was never reached.

4th case

1 expl jmp 9
2 self attkd melee
3 tgt any lightning
4 tgt any attack
5 nmy nv arcane bolt
6 nmy nv attack
7 self not being attkd melee beh rng
8 expl beh default

toggled arcane bolt and staff attack, used lightning, tgt attack command didn't seem to make any difference

Case 5

1 expl jmp 9
2 self attkd melee
3 tgt any attack
4 tgt any lightning
5 nmy nv arcane bolt
6 nmy nv attack
7 self not being attkd melee beh rng
8 expl beh default

toggled arcane bolt and staff attack, used lightning, tgt attack didn't seem to make any difference

Case 6


1 expl jmp 9
2 self attkd melee
3 nmy nv arcane bolt
4 tgt any attack
5 nmy nv attack
6 self not being attkd melee beh rng
7 expl beh default

Still toggled arcane bolt and staff attack, didn't notice any more staff attacks than usual.

This leads me to believe that the tgt: attack command is pretty much un needed, and if you use target commands it is necessary to use a talent with the command to have it make a difference.

Well that's it for me for today.  It's getting late and I want to play a little more before I hit the sack.

Modifié par werwulf222, 29 juillet 2010 - 02:59 .

#15
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 25 juin 2010 - 07:53

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One last thing I forgot to mention in the main post that I think the community should know about.

The advanced tactics mod has two nifty little features that can make a big difference in your game play.

In the skills section of the book, 2 new skills are added when you install the mod,  one called possessed and the other called traitors.

When you enable traitors, any rogues in your party will automatically attempt to move behind their targets and backstab, instead of trying to take out the enemy head on.  I think this could make a big difference in the harder difficulty levels of the game.

But it is the possessed skill that really shines when you are writing tactics.  By enabling this skill, you can retain control of your character, and watch how he executes the tactics in his list.  You can over ride with your controls of course, but if you don't touch anything, he will execute the tactics in his list just like any other NPC.

This is an excellent learning tool, because you can see first hand how each individual command works, but more importantly, you can see how the AI is programmed to make your character move and react to the other NPC's in the battle.  It was by using this skill that I learned not to stay in one place and wail on an enemy as a 2H warrior, because when I enabled the skill, my guy didn't do that, and at the time he was having a lot more success than I was.

It's too bad the console makers didn't think ahead enough to find a way for their users to be able to use mods, because of all the mods available for the game, I think this is one of the best, and it's kind of a shame that only the PC users get the benefit of it.

Well, I'm pretty sure this is the last post I'll make for awhile.  I think I finally have a handle on how the tactics system works and it's documented in this thread with hopefully no mistakes so that any gamer that's interested in the topic can explore for him or her self without the need to go through the hours of testing to get lists that work as expected.  

I know the first post is long and dense and not much fun to read, but there was a lot of ground to cover that's not documented very well in the manual.  So if you're interested in writing tactics for your own NPC's, take a little time to read at least the section on quirks in the system and the section about implementing AND and OR logic at the very least.  

Just those two sections alone might save you hours of frustration when you are trying to get a custom list to work, especially if you are using behaviour switching in your list.  All the stuff that was written in that post was discovered by trial and error which is not a very efficient way to learn about something, but the important thing is that by reading about all the mistakes I made while I was learning to write these lists, you needn't repeat the process, so your learning curve will be a whole lot faster.


I still recommend that once you find a list that works for you that you write it down in notepad or wordpad so you don't have to go through the hassle of testing all over again, and when you start a new game it's much easier to copy an already made list that works than it is to start from scratch and write a brand new one.

If your machine has the ability to use mods, I really think Advanced Tactics is well worth the time it takes to download and install, a few minutes if you know what you're doing.  I like the unlock 30 mod too, but I suppose for more of a challenge it's not really necessary.

Of course, if you like to micro manage, the whole tactics thing is unnecessary, but if you're something like me and expect your NPC's to fight as well or better than the enemy AI does, using lists can make all the difference.

Anyway, I'm done for awhile.  I've been at this thread for nearly two days now and I think it's pretty well as finished as it's going to get.  Have fun in your game and here's wishing you good success in your adventures in Ferelden.

Modifié par werwulf222, 25 juin 2010 - 07:57 .

#16
cirerrek
Posté 25 juin 2010 - 08:10

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Very nice, werwulf222. I've been looking for an in-depth analysis like this with 30 tactics slots and using Advanced Tactics. I have Wynne and Morrigan up to using 30 tactics slots, but haven't delved into features like Jump To in any great detail.

I will have to study your post more in-depth on the morrow.

And I second your recommendation of writing your tactics down when you find something that works.  I've had the game lose all of my parties tactics settings upon occasion.  
 

#17
MindYerBeak
Posté 25 juin 2010 - 10:27

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Cor blimey, guv, lots of hard work there. Thanks again for the effort.



#18
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 25 juin 2010 - 03:35

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It's worth it if even 1 person sees how much fun mostly real time battles are.

#19
Last Darkness
Posté 25 juin 2010 - 10:44

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I liked Leilana jump to tactics for switching her in and out of arcehr mode and into melee mode lol

#20
cirerrek
Posté 26 juin 2010 - 01:54

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Also of interest is how the tactics are assigned by the game.  If you could bypass the tactics system entirely then you may be able to use the background programming language used in DA to write some really fancy tactics.

Obviously not nearly as fancy as what you are doing, but here are the 18 tactics I was using with Alistair toward the end game. 

Very brute force methodology. 

Activate useful sustains and keep them up

01) Self: Any - Activate: Shield Wall
02) Self: Any - Activate: Rally
03) Self: Any - Activate: Precise Striking

Heal thyself

04) Self: Health < 30% - Use health poultice most powerful

If you are getting pummeled go turtle

05) Self: Health >= 90% - Deactivate Shield Defense
06) Self: Health < 60% - Activate Shield Defense

If you aren't getting pummeled then act all bad tail

07) Self: Health < 50% - Deactivate: Threaten
08) Self: Health >= 90% - Activate: Threaten

Anti-pincushion routine

09) Self: Not being attacked by ranged attacks - Deactivate: Shield Cover
10) Self: Being attacked by ranged attacks - Activate: Shield Cover

Clear some space

11) Self: Surrounded by at least three enemies - War Cry
12) Self: Surrounded by at least four enemies - Holy smite

Generate some threat

13) Ally: Being attacked - Taunt

You are a tank, go bash the nearest thing moving so the mages and thief can setup in peace

14) Enemy: Nearest visible - Overpower
15) Enemy: Nearest visible - Shield Pummel
16) Enemy: Nearest visible - Shield Bash
17) Enemy: Nearest visible - Assault
18) Enemy: Nearest visible - Attack

Biggest problem I had was that he would Holy smite, which would stun the enemies and then follow up with a Warcry which would knock the enemies down and either break their stun or by the time they got back on their feat the stun had worn off. 

Now I have some ideas of what to do with those other 12 slots.   
  

Modifié par cirerrek, 26 juin 2010 - 01:58 .

#21
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 26 juin 2010 - 04:33

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Cirerrek, thank you for contributing your list to this thread.  If more people contribute their lists, eventually we'll have a good resource for everyone who uses tactics in the game.

Unlike some gamers, I haven't really had a lot of experience playing RPG games, and while I understand the concept of a tank, to tell the truth I was not really sure how to implement it in tactics.  It seems your list does that just fine.

Most of my lists have focused on starting the group with ranged attacks if possible, and only switching to melee when necessary.  Because I didn't know how to really set up a tank, I never much bothered with it, but your list provides some very good ideas.

In my current game at the moment, I'm in Lothering.  I just made a few more traps for some coin and am about to take the party to the Circle tower.  My guy is a little light on STR at the moment I think, but I'm hoping it will be enough till he can get burning man and the others.

This is my current setup at the moment.  I decided to include all 4 lists because the team is working pretty well at the moment.  I was having a little trouble with Mori rushing into danger, but I hope the changes I made have fixed that.  The way the team is set up, Leli will concentrate on enemy archers if she can.  Mori will disable an elite, take out an archer if possible and attack with her usual aplomb.  Ali and Bakka stay ranged until Bakka switches and are set to change targets quite a lot so they keep moving.  Bakka's tactics ensure that he will pommel strike an enemy who is melee attacking another party member, if possible.  Of course, I am playing Bakka.

As you will no doubt notice, Ali is not set to be the tank.  This is because I didn't really know how to implement that, and also because with this setup, Ali and Bakka work pretty effectively together.

Anyone who reads this, feel perfectly free to try out any list I have written for this thread.  As usual, I make no claim that these are good tactics, only that they seem to help me survive battles on hard difficulty.

I actually learned quite a lot while I was writing these posts, and the lists below reflect some of that new knowledge. 

 

BAKKA - 2H warrior LVL 11

STR 34
DEX 23
WIL 20 buffed 25
MAG 11
CUN 11 buffed 12
CON 13 buffed 14

life 205
stam 225
fatigue 9.1%
armor 16
def 58
atk 85
dmg bow 25 rng crit 1.2% ap 6
dmg mel 41.3 mel crit 1.8% ap 4

Using "Of Noble Cast" mod, supplies

armor and a steel 2H sword for hero,
silverite sword and steel shield for
warrior or rogue

1 health <50 hp lp
2 stam < 30 deep mush
3 expl jmp 21
4 self surr by 2+ warcry
5 self attkd by melee sw mel wpn
6 self attkd by melee pomm strk
7 self attkd by melee beh defensive
8 tgt health < 30% crit strk
9 tgt med or high armor mighty blow
10 mori attkd by melee jmp 13
11 ali attkd by melee jmp 14
12 leli attkd by melee jmp 15
13 nmy attking mori pomm strk
14 nmy attking ali pomm strk
15 nmy attking leli pomm strk
16 nmy highest health pomm strk
17 nmy lowest health crit strk
18 nmy EorH sunder arms
19 nmy EorH mighty blow
20 nmy nv attack
21 expl sw rng wpn
22 expl beh default

------------------------------------

ALI S&S warrior lvl 10

STR 27
DEX 22
WIL 19 buffed 21
MAG 12 buffed 14
CUN 12
CON 14 buffed 15

life 204
stam 200
fatigue 0.9%
armor 12
def 57
atk 81
dmg bow 22.3 rng crit 4.10% ap 5
dmg swd 31.3 mel crit 6.00% ap 4

1 health <50% hp lp
2 stam <20 deep mush
3 expl jmp 28
4 hero using rng attk jmp 28
5 hero using mel attk jmp 6
6 self attkd by melee beh passive
7 hero using rng attk beh ranged
8 self combat precise strking
9 self using rng attk jmp 24
10 hero using mel attk beh defensive
11 hero using mel attk sw mel wpn
12 self attkd by rng sh cover
13 nmy nv mage jmp 25
14 ally grabbed sh bash
15 self attkd by melee sh pumm
16 tgt uses mel or rng attk sh bash
17 tgt uses mel or rng attk sh pumm
18 nmy highest health overpower
19 nmy health <30% attack
20 nmy stam < 30% attack
21 nmy tgt of control attack
22 tgt med or high armor sh bash
23 nmy low armor attack
24 nmy nv attack
25 nmy nv mage sh bash
26 nmy nv mage sh pumm
27 nmy nv mage attack
28 expl sw rng wpn
29 expl beh default
30 expl deac sh cover

-----------------------------------

MORI Mage lvl 11

STR 15
DEX 19
WIL 23 buffed 25
MAG 30 buffed 33
CUN 12
CON 10 buffed 12

life 135
mana 250
fatigue 3.7%

armor 10
def 55
spellpower 26
dmg staff 10.5 ap 26

1 health < 50% hp lp
2 mana <20% lp lp
3 expl jmp 21
4 nmy EorH force field
5 self: combat rock armor
6 self not attkd by melee beh ranged
7 self attkd by melee beh passive
8 nmy uses rng attk mr to lr stonefist
9 self surr by 2+ mind blast
10 self attkd by melee horror
11 nmy mr to lr arcane bolt
12 ally health <30% force field
13 nmy sr to mr winter's grasp
14 tgt health < 50% vul hex
15 tgt has vul hex drain life
16 nmy sr stonefist
17 hero using melee attk frost wpn
18 tgt sr disorient
19 nmy sr horror
20 nmy nv attack
21 expl deac frost wpn
22 expl beh default
23 expl deac rock armor

-----------------------------------
LELI Rogue lvl 11

STR 20
DEX 29
WIL 17 buffed 19
MAG 14
CUN 18 buffed 20
CON 11

life 145
stam 175
fatigue 3.9%

armor 11
def 70
atk 72
dmg bow 19.5 rng crit 4.10% ap 6
dmg dag 12.3/9.2 mel crit 6.3%/6.3%
ap 6/6

1 health < 50% hp lp
2 stam <20% deep mush
3 expl jmp 25
4 self not attkd by melee jmp 9
5 self attkd by melee beh defensive
6 self attkd by mel sw mel wpn
7 self attkd by mel dirty fighting
8 self attkd by mel jmp 20
9 tgt sr below the belt
10 self not attkd by melee beh ranged
11 sef attkd by melee beh passive
12 self: combat song of valor
13 tgt uses rng attk sr pin shot
14 tgt uses rng attk sr to mr pin shot
15 tgt uses rng attk mr to lr pin shot
16 tgt uses rng attk sr shat shot
17 tgt uses rng attk sr to mr shat sht
18 tgt uses rng attk mr to lr shat sht
19 nmy sr below the belt
20 nmy attking Leli dw sweep
21 nmy sr to mr attack
22 nmy mr to lr attack
23 nmy uses melee attk crip shot
24 nmy nv attack
25 expl sw rng wpn
26 expl beh default
27 expl deac song of valor

Modifié par werwulf222, 26 juin 2010 - 04:37 .

#22
Guest_werwulf222_*
Posté 26 juin 2010 - 08:46

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Well, so much for Bakka. He bought it in the fight with the Desire demon, the Templar and the corpses. I didn't bother to set any traps before entering the room, Wynne got taken out and I didn't monitor my health closely enough. There's got to be a way to beat that distraction thing, I just don't know it yet.

I'm going to call my next guy Thor, same deal, 2H warrior, but I'm going to try and get him to 36 by lvl 10 and see if I can increase my hit rate a little bit. Bakka was missing his swings way too much, he only had a hit rate of 78 - 80 so for Thor I'm not going to push DEX quite so much and STR a little more.

I think this is why I enjoy this game so much. I have made it through the CT fade at level 7 with a 2 Hander without much problem. This time I was at lvl 12 by the time the fight occurred and got taken out. Just like life, there's always the "x" factor.

I suppose if I get killed often enough in the tower I could go back to Mori, Wynne and Ali in the group which is usually a pretty safe bet, but I'm really trying to get a handle on Leli's archery skills.  

So far, even with suppressing fire and a whitewood bow she just doesn't really seem to be able to do enough damage to benefit the group unless she's doing melee.  I think I'm going to change her list so she backs up Thor with melee attacks if most of the enemies are using melee attacks.

Finally, I had some magic mods installed and I'm going to take them out.  They increased the conjuration time for lightning and stonefist, and I think that might be why Wynne was not able to defend herself adequately enough to survive the initial encounter.

But mostly it was my own fault.  I knew my health was getting low, but I didn't pause, and as it happened I guess I should have.

Thor is also going to wear light armor, and light armor only until I can get Wade's stuff.  That should make the next game even more interesting than this one was.

Bye for now.

Modifié par werwulf222, 29 juillet 2010 - 02:59 .

#23
cirerrek
Posté 26 juin 2010 - 02:11

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werwulf222 wrote...
Cirerrek, thank you for contributing your list to this thread.  If more people contribute their lists, eventually we'll have a good resource for everyone who uses tactics in the game.


Glad to have the opportunity to contribute.  The experimental nature of your approach is interesting to see unfold.

werwulf222 wrote...
Unlike some gamers, I haven't really had a lot of experience playing RPG games, and while I understand the concept of a tank, to tell the truth I was not really sure how to implement it in tactics.  It seems your list does that just fine.


Being a D&D CRPG player, the tank concept was new to me to.  I understand it is a tactic that came out of MMORPG that came about as a way to make warriors useful compared to say a rogue or a mage.  

werwulf222 wrote...
Most of my lists have focused on starting the group with ranged attacks if possible, and only switching to melee when necessary.  Because I didn't know how to really set up a tank, I never much bothered with it, but your list provides some very good ideas.


Thanks.  Just stuff I've gathered up from threads like this.  Since I've got some stuff now that seems to work reasonably well, wanted to share it.  

werwulf222 wrote...
In my current game at the moment, I'm in Lothering.  I just made a few more traps for some coin and am about to take the party to the Circle tower.  My guy is a little light on STR at the moment I think, but I'm hoping it will be enough till he can get burning man and the others.


I've played one 2-h warrior through most of the game (currently 20th level) and STR is about the only stat that matters. If you have the Stone Prisoner DLC then there is a great warrior/rogue ring and probably the best helm in the game to acquire.    

werwulf222 wrote...
This is my current setup at the moment.  I decided to include all 4 lists because the team is working pretty well at the moment.  I was having a little trouble with Mori rushing into danger, but I hope the changes I made have fixed that.  The way the team is set up, Leli will concentrate on enemy archers if she can.  Mori will disable an elite, take out an archer if possible and attack with her usual aplomb.  Ali and Bakka stay ranged until Bakka switches and are set to change targets quite a lot so they keep moving.  Bakka's tactics ensure that he will pommel strike an enemy who is melee attacking another party member, if possible.  Of course, I am playing Bakka.


I've actually found Mori to be pretty survivable at least on Normal.  The only time I had trouble with here was when I was having her target sleeping enemies with Horror.  Since Sleep is Medium range and Horror is Short range, she would run into the middle of melee to cast Horror causing her to draw enough aggro to get herself killed if Mind Blast was on cool down.  

Modifié par cirerrek, 26 juin 2010 - 02:13 .

#24
cirerrek
Posté 26 juin 2010 - 02:20

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[quote]werwulf222 wrote...
Well, so much for Bakka. He bought it in the fight with the Desire demon, the Templar and the corpses. I didn't bother to set any traps before entering the room, Wynne got taken out and I didn't monitor my health closely enough. There's got to be a way to beat that distraction thing, I just don't know it yet.
[/quote]

That can be a difficult fight.  I usually have to resort to locking one of them down with Forcefield or Crushing Prison.

[quote]werwulf222 wrote...
I suppose if I get killed often enough in the tower I could go back to Mori, Wynne and Ali in the group which is usually a pretty safe bet, but I'm really trying to get a handle on Leli's archery skills.  

So far, even with suppressing fire and a whitewood bow she just doesn't really seem to be able to do enough damage to benefit the group unless she's doing melee.  I think I'm going to change her list so she backs up Thor with melee attacks if most of the enemies are using melee attacks.
[/quote]

I found Leli to be lackluster until 10th level when she can acquire Song of Courage.  Even aftewards, I feel she needs some decent gear to really be effective.  Archery/Thievery is very skill/talent intensive spreading her thin early on.












[/quote]

Modifié par cirerrek, 26 juin 2010 - 02:21 .

#25
cirerrek
Posté 26 juin 2010 - 02:52

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Late game Wynne, who has been respecialized a bit because Haste doesn't play well with Momentum.

Behavior: Ranged

Active sustains

01) Self: Any - Activate: Rock Armor
02) Self: Any - Activate: Spell Wisp

Deactivation of some specialized sustains

03) Self: Not being attacked by melee attacks - Deactivate: Miasma
04) Self: Exploration - Deactivate: Spell Might

Need some extra juice

05) Self: At least five enemies are alive - Activate: Spell Might

Sustain blood magic routine

06) Self: Health = 70% - Blood Sacrifice
07) Self: Health < 50% - Regeneration
08) [Tank]: Health >= 70% - Blood Sacrifice
09) Self: Health >= 70% - Activate Blood Magic

A little self-defense

10) Self: Surrounded by at least three enemies - Activate: Miasma
11) Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Weakness

Keep everyone alive

12) Ally: Health < 50% - Heal
13) Ally: Health < 50% - Group Heal
14) Ally: Dead - Revival

Keep Morrigan flush with mana

15) Ally: Mana or Stamina < 70% - Mass Rejuvenation
16) Morrigan: Mana or Stamina < 70% - Spell Bloom

Keep Mr. Blood battery alive and healthy

17) [Tank]: Surrounded by at least three enemies - Lifeward

Prioritize targets/nasty things you want to do to targets

18) Enemy: Petrified/Frozen - Stonefist
19) Target: Rank is Elite or higher - Petrify

Swat mages

20) Enemy: Nearest visible mage - Mana Clash
21) Enemy: Nearest visible mage - Mana Drain
22) Enemy: Nearest visible mage - Mana Cleanse

Pick more unluckies

23) Enemy: Clustered with at least three allies - Blood Wound
24) Enemy: Target of [Tank] - Stinging Swarm
25) Enemy: Attacking main character - Paralyze
26) Enemy: Nearest visible mage - Attack
27) Enemy: Rank is Boss or higher - Attack
28) Enemy: Rank is Elite or higher - Attack
29) Enemy: Attacking [Tank] - Attack

In theory get the weakest link as until they are dead they can cause as much damage as a high hp enemy.

30) Enemy: Lowest health - Attack

This was sort of an exercise in getting Wynne to use all her spells.  I think I lacked the space for Rejuvenate.  I only got Miasma because I was going for Mass Paralysis, however I maxed her out on levels before she could acquire it.  

I'm not quite sure how well the "Keep Morrigan flush with Mana works when she is in Blood Magic mode.  It may actually be superfluous.  However, I also don't recall Morrigan being short on mana very often (20 Willpower + Gear) so it may be working fine.  

Modifié par cirerrek, 26 juin 2010 - 09:09 .

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