28 réponses à ce sujet

[beancounter501]

I know my next group wants to have two Rangers, and I am thinking of having an AW as well who would be able to haste the whole party. Two hasted bears, a hasted warrior, a hasted AW and two hasted Rogues - carange time!
So I started to think, since I am not going to get Momentum for either Rogue, how about using a single weapon or even a 2 Hand Weapon for the Rogues.
My question is, has anyone played this type of Rogue out, and how did he compare to a normal Dual Weld Rogue?

Modifié par beancounter501, 24 juin 2010 - 05:13 .

[soteria]

I've heard of a lot of people talking about planning to do it, but I haven't really heard about anyone really trying to test it compared to dual wield.

[Elhanan]

Auto-attack with 2H weapons is so sluggish that even with Haste I would be bored to tears watching it. I have used S&S Rogue, and that worked fine using the Duelist/ Assassin specs, but DW for melee would most likely be best.

Think I still prefer archers, though.

[beancounter501]

@Soteria - I just may have to try it out. Unfortunately, I am no Rogue expert.



@Elhan - Was your S&S Rogue focused in str, dex or cun? Curious how he worked for you



My 2 Hand Warrior without Zerker or Powerful Swings usually lands a crit in the 150 to 180 using Star Fang. (That does not include any Rune Dmg) Now Veshaille has the same strength mod as Star Fang and a higher crit dmg bonus. So in THEORY using Veshaille a high str Rogue should backstab somewhere close to that.



The character I have been thinking of would be a Ranger/Duelist. If you are Hasted, take a Swift Salve and turn on Pinpoint Striking. You should be able to have 15 straight critical hits landing the 140 to 170 range. Probably over 2K points of dmg in 15 seconds. Pretty nice boss killer for not investing any talents in a weapon skill. Gives you lots of talents to max stealth and your two specs really fast.

[Last Darkness]

Im actualy playing a Str based Rogue with Starfang and taking almost no skills but the main rogue ones. Im Ranger/Duelest and its working pretty well.

First impressions, two hand auto attack seems to attack just a bit faster then the unbearable warrior version. Also there is a unique backstab animation with two handers thats actualy a quick animation so with this setup you definetly want to backstab at every oppurtunity. Im level 10 and hitting for 95-100+ per backstab with Starfang at a comparble speed to a main hander. When I get too much Malice and the enemy turns to me I just combat stealth and reposition. Its actualy alarming how well this works when you can garantee that the vast majority of your hits are crits and only gets better when you get more bonus crit damage gear. Im on the console so unfortunetly to level up I have to put points into Dex since it wont let me level up unless I pick a skill. Right now I have almost all the main rogue skills except for the last ones in each tree and the top line for duel wield(might as well keep it a open option) im not having any problems so far though unlike a Str Warrior you cant just dump all your stats into Str you will need some Cun and Dex for various skill requirements.
My party make up is Alistair, Oghren and Morrigan. Since I killed Sten, plan to kill Leilana and Wynn and Zevran and Kill Alistair marry Anora and get Loghaine. Im going a pretty evil game setup this time. Alistair is a sword and shield tank and Oghren is a two hander warrior as well.

Definetly try it, as its a intresting setup and I think fun to play. If I could change something though I would have picked Deulest up at 7 instead of Ranger, its buffs would have helped better but its all good.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 24 juin 2010 - 10:44 .

[Last Darkness]

Elhanan wrote...

Auto-attack with 2H weapons is so sluggish that even with Haste I would be bored to tears watching it. I have used S&S Rogue, and that worked fine using the Duelist/ Assassin specs, but DW for melee would most likely be best.
Think I still prefer archers, though.

This a particularly nasty build with a Cunning setup rogue or Str one. Ive tried it and while there is no skill spamming besides the base rogue skills the class specs abilities make this a pretty strong build to play. Particularly with Haste or Double Haste.
On the PC theres a mod I was reading last night that allows rogues to select sword and shield talents to improve this even more. I feel thats just a little too much though lol.

[beancounter501]

^^ Interesting - especially the bit about faster animations for a backstab. Still, looking at the Awakening talents, I wonder if it is better to go dex then str. Unless you go Legionaire Scout. Or maybe a Archer/Dual Dagger Hybrid? Or a high str, moderate dex character.



Actually, the Archer/Dual Weld looks kind of interesting.



LOL, no wonder I am a chronic restarter!

[Nooneyouknow13]

beancounter501 wrote...


My 2 Hand Warrior without Zerker or Powerful Swings usually lands a crit in the 150 to 180 using Star Fang. (That does not include any Rune Dmg) Now Veshaille has the same strength mod as Star Fang and a higher crit dmg bonus. So in THEORY using Veshaille a high str Rogue should backstab somewhere close to that.
.

You forgot a portion of the damage formula here.  Main hands get between .25 and .5 of your damage attribute per swing, two handers get between .5 and .75.

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 24 juin 2010 - 11:19 .

[Last Darkness]

beancounter501 wrote...

^^ Interesting - especially the bit about faster animations for a backstab. Still, looking at the Awakening talents, I wonder if it is better to go dex then str. Unless you go Legionaire Scout. Or maybe a Archer/Dual Dagger Hybrid? Or a high str, moderate dex character.

Actually, the Archer/Dual Weld looks kind of interesting.

LOL, no wonder I am a chronic restarter!

Try it in awkening pretty quick, though in Awkening I found Shadow+Scout+Assassin/Duelest(I foudn assassin better) to be great for two hander. I of course boosted my dex up higher though. Shadow Form lets you do +50% backstab damage, and with critical damage mod runes this can get pretty nasty particularly with Weak points+Flicker (Flicker with two hand is impressive) then if you kill anyone it will activate feast of the fallen to restore stamina(If you have assasin). Also Ghost+Strength of Stone alternating can make you particularly hard to damage/kill.
(I actualy tested this build out on a new Orlesian Warden before I started my current Origens game along the same lines)

[beancounter501]

^^ Interesting. I have had awakening for a while now, just have not played it yet. I want to do a one of each class.

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

You forgot a portion of the damage formula here. Main hands get between .25 and .5 of your damage attribute per swing, two handers get between .5 and .75.

I was considering going single weapon. So the dmg attribute would still be .5 to .75. It is only when you go dual weld do you get the .25 to .5 modifier. That is half the appeal of skipping dual weld completely - the huge attribute modifiers.

Edit: Spelling.  I hate spelling. /)

Modifié par beancounter501, 25 juin 2010 - 01:11 .

[Last Darkness]

beancounter501 wrote...

^^ Interesting. I have had awakening for a while now, just have not played it yet. I want to do a one of each class.

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

You forgot a portion of the damage formula here. Main hands get between .25 and .5 of your damage attribute per swing, two handers get between .5 and .75.

I was considering going single weapon. So the dmg attribute would still be .5 to .75. It is only when you go dual weld do you get the .25 to .5 modifier. That is half the appeal of skipping dual weld completely - the huge attribute modifiers.

Edit: Spelling.  I hate spelling. /)

Well unless you have a Respec mod and auto levler or something (Damn you PC users) I find it easier to make a new character in Awkening since you start at level 18 and can test some of the skills/synergy.

[Elhanan]

beancounter501 wrote...


@Elhan - Was your S&S Rogue focused in str, dex or cun? Curious how he worked for you.

As I recall, I kept STR & DEX even to avoid losing piercing weapon bonuses, since they are based on 1/2 of each.

[Nooneyouknow13]

beancounter501 wrote...

^^ Interesting. I have had awakening for a while now, just have not played it yet. I want to do a one of each class.

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

You forgot a portion of the damage formula here. Main hands get between .25 and .5 of your damage attribute per swing, two handers get between .5 and .75.

I was considering going single weapon. So the dmg attribute would still be .5 to .75. It is only when you go dual weld do you get the .25 to .5 modifier. That is half the appeal of skipping dual weld completely - the huge attribute modifiers.

Edit: Spelling.  I hate spelling. /)

Main hand damage is calculated the same between weapon/weapon, weapon/shield and weapon/nothing.  It's been a while since I looked in the toolset for it, so I'm missing the formula, but it's only two handed weapon styles that use the .5 to .75.  Hopping in game against the archdemon, main hand damage is within the same range while dual wielding or single wielding.

I mean, I could be wrong, and if I am, I'd like to see the section of the damage formula that shows that I am.  However, that would also mean you'd never be more than 10 or so points of damage behind using Veshaille and a Shield vs say, Starfang.  And given that the base speed for the two handed weapon style is half a second slower than weapon and shield, that just brings us back an old very long thread.

[beancounter501]

2 Hand, Weapon/Shield, and 1 Weapon use the same formula. .5 to .75 your attribute modifer. Personal gripe of mine. Single weapon should have been higher. Like they did with NWN. One of the reasons a two hand will start to lose to a S&S in straight auto attacking i the higher levels.

Dual weld uses .25 to .5 for both main and off hand. If you do not take the first Dual Weld Talent in the Dual Weld Mastery tree (sorry forget what it is called) your off hand hits for about half your main hand. A .125 to .25 modifier. If you are going Dual Weld the first two talents in that tree are critical.

But honestly, attributes are not nearly as important for dual weld as gear.

All that is in the combat dmg script. I can post snipets if you want. But it is what it is.

Modifié par beancounter501, 25 juin 2010 - 02:37 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

If that really is the damage formula, 2 hand is completely worthless outside it's talents. And yet it always seemed to deal significantly more damage per hit on my AW warrior, even if the damage out over time was worse.



Also, isn't untalented off hand 0 to .25?

[Jestina]

I hate 2H with a warrior....it would probably be even worse with a rogue. I wish archery wasn't so gimped or i'd try that.

[Last Darkness]

Still try it out and see what you like, I can definetly attest its pretty fun seeing you backstab someone with a two hander, reminds me of this DnD larper video I watched that a rogue backstabbed a knight in a bar with a Balista lol

[Elhanan]

I may have to see what Pinpoint Strike looks like with a maul....

[beancounter501]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

If that really is the damage formula, 2 hand is completely worthless outside it's talents. And yet it always seemed to deal significantly more damage per hit on my AW warrior, even if the damage out over time was worse.

Also, isn't untalented off hand 0 to .25?

You are right about the off hand.  Untalented it is 0 to .25.  However, the main hand calculations I posted are right.
From core_h:

    // Main hand attacks to 50-75% of att modifier
    if (nHand == HAND_MAIN)
    {
        if (GetWeaponStyle(oCreature) == WEAPONSTYLE_DUAL)
        {
            return RandFF(fDmg * 0.25, fDmg*0.25, bDeterministic);
        }
        else
        {
           return RandFF(fDmg * 0.25, fDmg*0.5, bDeterministic);
        }
    }


I respecced Leliana to try it out and ran into a problem right off the bat.  Her strength was no where near as high as my Two Hand Warrior.  First she had to drop 3 points in Dex for the Coup Talent.  Then 7 points into cunning for Stealth 4.  That puts her down 10 points, and then no Fade Bonus and no starting warrior strength bonus and she was down nearly 20 points of str!  Her hits where in the mid 90's.  This strategy would probably work best for a PC Character since the Fade bonus would cover most of cunning points and all the dex needed.

[Nooneyouknow13]

beancounter501 wrote...

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

If that really is the damage formula, 2 hand is completely worthless outside it's talents. And yet it always seemed to deal significantly more damage per hit on my AW warrior, even if the damage out over time was worse.

Also, isn't untalented off hand 0 to .25?

You are right about the off hand.  Untalented it is 0 to .25.  However, the main hand calculations I posted are right.
From core_h:

    // Main hand attacks to 50-75% of att modifier
    if (nHand == HAND_MAIN)
    {
        if (GetWeaponStyle(oCreature) == WEAPONSTYLE_DUAL)
        {
            return RandFF(fDmg * 0.25, fDmg*0.25, bDeterministic);
        }
        else
        {
           return RandFF(fDmg * 0.25, fDmg*0.5, bDeterministic);
        }
    }


I respecced Leliana to try it out and ran into a problem right off the bat.  Her strength was no where near as high as my Two Hand Warrior.  First she had to drop 3 points in Dex for the Coup Talent.  Then 7 points into cunning for Stealth 4.  That puts her down 10 points, and then no Fade Bonus and no starting warrior strength bonus and she was down nearly 20 points of str!  Her hits where in the mid 90's.  This strategy would probably work best for a PC Character since the Fade bonus would cover most of cunning points and all the dex needed.

Bleh.  I see it now. Of course going further on into the core_h, I've now confused myself.  Would you happen to know what:

   // ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        // for non dual weapons, multiply with magic number to generate
        // a proportionally more correct display value.
        // ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        if (GetWeaponStyle(oCreature) == WEAPONSTYLE_TWOHANDED)
        {
            fStat *= (fTiming * 2.25);
        }
        else if (GetWeaponStyle(oCreature) != WEAPONSTYLE_DUAL)
        {
            fStat *= (fTiming * 2.0);
        }

        return fStat;


Refers to?  It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the actual damage formula from what I can tell, so is this the character sheet damage display?

[beancounter501]

Yes, just display dmg on the character screen. It is easy to mix it up, because all the character display functions come right after the actual dmg functions.

[beancounter501]

Well, I wanted to do an actual DPS calculation for these builds to get a comparison to Disco Birds Rogue DPS thread. Since that seems to be the standard.



The first thing I wanted to do was check that my calculations were matching his. I calculated out the the damage from a Dual Dagger Dex build and I was able to match the exact number - 82 Raw DPS assuming no armor on the target. Yay, so I am pretty confident the formula is correct.



All of the calculations are based off the gear and stats that Disco laid out. None include Tainted Blade or Exploit Weakness(Which Disco Included). All assume three Grandmaster Runes (Same as Disco). For this single weapon cases I used the stats from Disco's Str Build 2 Big Weapons and added 17 points to str since he did not not those 17 points in dex.



Here are the comparisons:





Dex Dual Daggers: 71.1

Dex Single Dagger: 59.2

Str Single - Veshaille: 73.1

Str Dual - Veshaille/Star Fang: 72.8

Str Single - Star Fang: 68.34

Str 2 Hand - Star Fang: 60.6

Str 2 Hand - Chasind Maul: 59



Not including the three Grandmaster Runes gets you:



Dex Dual Daggers: 56

Dex Single Dagger: 49.2

Str Single - Veshaille: 65.2

Str Dual - Veshaille/Star Fang: 62.1



For the non-dual weld builds, it all depends if you can Haste. With no haste the Momentum builds will blow em away.

[Last Darkness]

Yeah Bean no 90+ Str for us lol, factor in books+fade bonuses and its not so bad just not 100% optimal. The trade off though is a 100% crit rate I would think vrs a warrior and of course some very useful abilities.

[hexaligned]

Hey another one of these threads, I just posted in one in general. The only thing holding this back really is the lack of aoe abilities. I haven't done the math but just because of the lack of aoe I'm sure the over all dps will be much lower than DW. That being said, running haste you still chew through everything in the game (one shotting every white conned mob you come across) Just prepare yourself for the annoying sound of BOOM BOOM every second from a constant stream of two hander crits.

[beancounter501]

^^ See two posts up. A single one hand weapon is extremely competive to a Dual Weld provided you get haste. Those calculations are based on the whole Best DW Backstab dmg thread from Disco.