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[Xandurpein]

The orgin of this post is a discussion on the Alistair gush thread. I have noted that some fanfic writers seem a little unsure on how to portray medieval combat in a realistic way for action sequences. For most people the only source of information on this matter is movies, games and maybe some historical fiction. Usually none of these are very accurate.

I have always had an interest in ancient and medieval warfare and combat so I have learned a bit more than the average person on this forum I think. I have also been a member of a medieval recreationist group called "Society for Creative Anachronism" or SCA and had a chance to see up close what it looks like. I have even tried to fight with shield and armor myself and while I was not any good, at least I have felt how it's like.

The purpose of this post is simply to give some useful information and ideas for someone who wants to include action scenes in their fanfic and wants to make it seem as realistic as possible.

This post is based on a theoretical understanding as well as some personal experience, but I'm sure it's not the final say. If anyone feels they have knowledge, either from research or personal experience, to add please let me know.

I have provided links to YouTube clips that illustrate the points I'm try to make. These clips mostly show mock combat from the SCA. I have once been a member of the SCA, but I have no connection to these video clips or those who made them. Most clips are home videos of poor quality, but I hope you can still see enough.

The sequences show people fighting with armor and rattan swords in competitions. So it's not for display, they are trying to win over each other. The rules of the SCA competitions state that a blow should be hard enough to really feel through the armor to count, so it looks a lot more "real" than fencing. Even so, it looks more honorable and formal than real battle would look like, maybe closer to what a tournament would have looked like.


Basic Sword and Shield Fighting
It may help anyone writing action to visualize this if they know the basics of how to use a sword and shield in combat. Below is two "show and tell" videos an SCA member has done in his backyard explaining the basic movements in sword and shield combat. Notice how he uses his whole body: legs, hips, shoulder and arms to generate power in the sword swings.




Sword and Shield combat is very different from fencing. Sword & Shield warriors often go very close to each other as you see in the clip below. This is to be able to throw a blow around the edge of the shield. At range it's too easy to block any blow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozuCVqIrvyQ

The shield is not just used to block swings. It's used offensively too. They don't use shield bashes in SCA fighting, but as you can see in the clip below, they even press shields together and push each other. One of the goals is to push the enemy's shield up in his face to block his vision and make him unable to strike, while maintaining room to throw blows around the shield yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXXvF1q7WrQ



Fighting with Two Swords
Fighting with two swords was quite rare in real medieval combat, but certainly possible. Using two swords strongly favors a very offensive stance. Two swords means you are not as good in blocking, but you can land more blows. The goal when using two swords is to rain so many blows on the enemy that they feel forced to adopt a defensive stance and just try to block all the blows and forget to attack. It is often very swift.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiWG1MoCiOI

 A sword an shield armed opponent can counter this by being offensive too and try to step in close with the shield to block their view. As I mentioned before sword & shield really favors being up close to the enemy, while two swords will try to keep a bit more distance.

In the clip below you can see that this leads to a lot of movement. The warrior with two swords sometimes backs off to keep the distance and sometimes advances to start a flurry of attacks to throw the opponent off balance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZeKkTE9VMw



Fighting with Sword and Dagger
Fighting with Sword and dagger, or two swords rogue style, differs from how a warrior would fight with two swords. Rogue style swordsmanship is a lot closer to modern fencing than when plate armed knights fight. The main difference between rogue style combat and knights is that rogues have little armor. That means that they don't need to use heavy blows to punch through plate. The dagger is mostly used to parry with.

All duels (one on one combat) begins with long pauses when seemingly nothing happens, as the opponents try to psych each other and look for an opportunity to strike. This is even more pronounced in rogue style combat, when the opponents don't wear armor and any hit can be fatal. As you can see in the clip below from Italy, it looks a lot like modern fencing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSJATG55Hlg


Fighting with Two handed Sword
Unlike what we are lead to believe in the game, Fighting with two handed swords seldom consists of whirling it in wide circles. That would most likely kill your fellows too. In SCA style fighting it looks a lot like japanese Kendo, but I would take that with a grain of salt. Two handed weapons are not as graceful in real life, as they are quite heavy weapons to swing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mfeAYrt6NM

Fighting with two handed sword against sword and shield is also very quick. The two handed sword has greater range so the sword and shield user must rush to close the distance, while avoiding being hit. Below is an excellent instruction video on how to defeat a two handed sword using sword and shield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q846uUCR3zU



Morale and Psychology.
One factor often overlooked in descriptions of battle and action scenes is morale and psychology. A warrior with confidence will always defeat a worried opponent, even if their skill is matched. Whenever a warrior starts to be nervous or afraid they will drop into a defensive stance instinctively to preserve themselves. This means that the opponent can relax and dominate the battle by choosing when to strike.

An obviously powerful warrior can strike fear in a group of opponents so they go defensive. This in turn means that the powerful warrior can pick them out one by one as they become paralyzed with fear.

Below is a clip where you can see how it can look in real life. The man with two swords is Paul of Bellatrix, a legend among SCA fighters, and his opponent is so aware of this that she lets herself slip into a worried defense. Paul can approach her relaxed, almost casually, because she is already defeated in her mind. He then choose when to attack.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrOwpozxAZA

You may notice that in many of the clips above fighters are often hit in the legs. By the rules of SCA they are allowed to continue fighting on their knees. This is pure fiction of course. In real life they would probably be incapacitated, screaming and bleeding. But it's worth noting that when fighting with sword and shield like in the clips above, holding the shield high pressed into the opponent, it is often possible to drop a low blow to hit the opponents legs.  


Fighting in Pitched Battles
One of the most spectacular events in the SCA are the battles. Up to a thousand fighters clash in these events. Fighting in big battles differs from regular duels and one on one fights. There is simply not enough room to maneuver. Battle lines clash into each other, shield against shield in a tug of war. There is little room to swing a sword. You can see a lot more lances and polearms here, than in duels, as thrusting with a polearm requires much less space than swinging a sword.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T29JlzeveIY

As you can see there is much less circling and waiting before closing in to strike than in duels. There isn't room to maneuvre. Sometimes battlelines physically push each other, using shields first to press the opponenets back. Like at 1.26 above.

I hope this little compilation of clips and thoughts have inspired someone writing action scenes for their fanfics. If anyone watching this have become interested in knowing more about the SCA, I suggest that you visit their homepage www.sca.org
 
 

Modifié par Xandurpein, 24 juin 2010 - 10:29 .

[Xandurpein]

Please let me know if there is anything that you wish me to expand upon or want explained. This is my first attempt at explaining such things.

[jenncgf]

Great idea! Thanks for posting the information for us!

[phaonica]

This is so cool. Thank you, Xandurpein.



*grabs a drink and starts reading*

[LadyDamodred]

Most excellent, Xandur! You are awesome for putting this together! *gets to reading and watching*



Pssst, btw, all the Alistair fangirls in the secret club want to have your babies.

[Costin_Razvan]

I am impressed....those kind of contests must really leave some bruising. That's got to be the most beautiful pitched battle recreation I have ever seen. ( you can read about it all you want in history books, but until you see it first hand then well... ) Will certainly help.

One thing I would like to note, or well rather put in words based on the video and what I know.

You can see in the pitched battle how the fighters either attack over their shields, or under in a close formation as they don't have room to attack from the side. You can also see the two handed swordsmen going with swords raised to strike at the enemy.

One thing about sword and shield fighting, you can see in the video, and in the game actually as an animation when you see your character holding his shield up and sword/axe/mace close to the upper part of their shield, now if weapon in question was a short sword...then the user could hide it behind the shield and then strike at their place of choosing with their opponent merely guessing ( this was done by hoplites and romans in the ancient times, and even in the medieval ages when people fought in a shield wall, the groin or legs were favorite places to strike at, as you could incapacitate an opponent )

Regarding two handed weapons. you can see in the video ( pitched battle ) how the people bring their swords high when they charging at an opponent, but once they get in a static position they fight with their blades held close to their chest level. If you commit a heavy blow with weapon raised high then you leave your defenses open, useful for the initial charge but not in a static position.

P.S. Xander, know where I could find the name for each move in english? I know most of them in ROMANIAN....but in English I fail..

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 24 juin 2010 - 10:43 .

[UpiH]

Not exactly medieval or sword and board, but some of you might be interested in this man's style with two swords, nevertheless:

http://en.wikipedia....iyamoto_Musashi

Not to mention his words.

Modifié par UpiH, 24 juin 2010 - 11:04 .

[Corker]

Vivat Bellatrix and Oldcastle!  I learned to stick my elbow in my ear, too.

The Armored Rose is a great practical resource for the differences women have in armored sport combat, for what that's worth.

Edit: Is it wrong to 'vivat' Oldcastle when he's passed on?  'Ave,' maybe?

Modifié par Corker, 24 juin 2010 - 11:30 .

[UpiH]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
...know where I could find the name for each move in english? I know most of them in ROMANIAN....but in English I fail..

The Junior Woodchucks Guidebook has some and probably useful external links, too.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Swordsmanship

http://en.wikipedia....an_martial_arts

Anyway, Romanian resembles Latin, right? You might find quite a lot of terms sounding familiar to you. If you find a good page in Romanian in the Wiki, just take a look whether there's an English page on the same subject, too.

Hope those'll help.

Modifié par UpiH, 25 juin 2010 - 12:09 .

[Costin_Razvan]

 Ah. I see thanks. I finally found what I was locking for here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_swordsmanship

This contains many sword moves that would greatly help people I think.

[nos_astra]

Extremely helpful! Thanks to Xandur and all the others who provided links.

My question is not exactly on topic but in DAO (and in DAO fanfiction) people are traveling an awful lot. From what I understand wearing a full plate armor would be primarily for situations when you expect fighting, like in a war. How do you think would someone simply traveling be equipped? What kind of armor would they wear? Would you wear a hauberk, a cuirass, a brigandine - whatever the correct term would be? What kind of armor would be affordable and practical?

http://en.wikipedia....medieval_armour

Xandurpein explained that plate armor is an advanced technique and replaced mail armor eventually.

Watching the videos I wonder how long one could survive such a fight as a mere foot soldier without any proper armor?

I'm sorry but somehow talking about the fighting style always brings me back to the topic of how much my characters are protected, how likely it is to survive a fight and what kind of injuries to expect (assuming that mages aren't roaming free and thus aren't available for everyone).

Modifié par klarabella, 25 juin 2010 - 07:54 .

[UpiH]

klarabella wrote...

Extremely helpful! Thanks to Xandur and all the others who provided links.

My question is not exactly on topic but in DAO (and in DAO fanfiction) people are traveling an awful lot. From what I understand wearing a full plate armor would be primarily for situations when you expect fighting, like in a war. How do you think would someone simply traveling be equipped? What kind of armor would they wear? Would you wear a hauberk, a cuirass, a brigandine - whatever the correct term would be? What kind of armor would be affordable and practical?

http://en.wikipedia....medieval_armour

Xandurpein explained that plate armor is an advanced technique and replaced mail armor eventually.

Watching the videos I wonder how long one could survive such a fight as a mere foot soldier without any proper armor?

I'm sorry but somehow talking about the fighting style always brings me back to the topic of how much my characters are protected, how likely it is to survive a fight and what kind of injuries to expect (assuming that mages aren't roaming free and thus aren't available for everyone).

I already pasted this link on Alithread. None other than Xandur seemed to even take notice, so I'll paste it here since, I've found this to be a wealth of information on arms and armour generally.

http://www.myarmoury...hic_armour.html

I haven't registered but even unregistered, the searches et al will work.

[nos_astra]

I saw this link and bookmarked it. I admit, I haven't read much of it yet because I'm at a loss what to look for. I'll give it a try again.

Edit: Or did you point me there because of the terms they used to label each part? I almost overlooked this. Thank you.

Modifié par klarabella, 25 juin 2010 - 09:19 .

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...

Extremely helpful! Thanks to Xandur and all the others who provided links.

My question is not exactly on topic but in DAO (and in DAO fanfiction) people are traveling an awful lot. From what I understand wearing a full plate armor would be primarily for situations when you expect fighting, like in a war. How do you think would someone simply traveling be equipped? What kind of armor would they wear? Would you wear a hauberk, a cuirass, a brigandine - whatever the correct term would be? What kind of armor would be affordable and practical?

http://en.wikipedia....medieval_armour

Xandurpein explained that plate armor is an advanced technique and replaced mail armor eventually.

Watching the videos I wonder how long one could survive such a fight as a mere foot soldier without any proper armor?

I'm sorry but somehow talking about the fighting style always brings me back to the topic of how much my characters are protected, how likely it is to survive a fight and what kind of injuries to expect (assuming that mages aren't roaming free and thus aren't available for everyone).

I have to admit that I don't have much real knowledge about this, but I can make some conjecture at least. Knights in the middle ages didn't walk around all day in armour. They put on armour for battle and for tournaments. What type of armour they wore, if any, would depend entirely on the occasion. It is highly unlikely that someone like Loghain would appear at a Landsmeet in full armour. That would be a bit like showing up in court with an assault rifle today.

Travelling in armour or not, would depend entirely on the situation. If they are marching to battle, I would assume that a knight was in full armour, but if he was simply travelling between two towns and not expecting battle, then I seriously doubt a knight would travel in plate amrour. If he was being paranoid or maybe travelled through a forrest of ill repute, then maybe slim mail chest or even a brigantine would be worn under their normal garment,  to offer some protection, without being overly visible.

The probably best source of knowledge of  wounds and death in medieval battles comes from Visby in Sweden. In the year 1361 the king of Denmark invaded Gotland and outside the city of Visby his professional army of knights and mercenaries slaughtered an opposing force consisting of mostly local peasants with little armour. All the dead bodies where put in a mass grave, that have been excavated by archeologists, and the details they have discovered are quite gruesome.

One man had both his legs cut off by one single swing from a two handed sword. One cranium had 15 different cuts. A notable number of the dead had been killed by a cut to the neck, indicating that the wounded enemies had simply been put out of their misery.

It's also worth noting that nobles often had a much greater chnace of surviving battle if their side lost. They would be held prisoners and ransomed for money. Commoners who could not pay, where just killed.

There is more info about this battle and the mass graves here:  www.guteinfo.com/

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 juin 2010 - 09:42 .

[Xandurpein]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Pssst, btw, all the Alistair fangirls in the secret club want to have your babies.

I am terribly sorry, but I love my two sons very much. You can't have them.

[nos_astra]

So much information. Now, there's a lot to consider. I can see why the fantasy genre is taking liberties. ^^

Modifié par klarabella, 25 juin 2010 - 09:57 .

[UpiH]

klarabella wrote...
...did you point me there because of the terms they used to label each part? I almost overlooked this. Thank you.

Yup, at least partially. Did a test search using "Hauberk"

http://www.myarmoury...ot_quilted.html

You're very welcome.

Modifié par UpiH, 25 juin 2010 - 10:27 .

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...

So much information. Now, there's a lot to consider. I can see why the fantasy genre is taking liberties. ^^

Indeed. This was post was never meant to be a constraint. Just a help for those who wanted things to appear reasonably realistic and didn't know where to start. Personally I think you can safely ignore any fact you want in the name of artistic freedom. It's only a few nerds like me who will ever know the difference anyway.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 juin 2010 - 10:02 .

[UpiH]

Xandurpein wrote...
There is more info about this battle and the mass graves here:  www.guteinfo.com/

And even in English (Uses Microsoft translator, hopefully it's more readable than the Finnish translation)

And now, I'll take my leave before we end up debating Ingmar Bergman's movies.

http://en.wikipedia....r_IV_of_Denmark




I alla fall, hälsningar från Östland, Xandur och god midsommar!

Modifié par UpiH, 25 juin 2010 - 10:22 .

[Xandurpein]

Glad midsommar UpiH och alla andra!

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 juin 2010 - 10:28 .

[Maria13]

Great. Copied to my FF source which is the word doc wherein I store any titbits of background info I use for my fan fic, from the taste of absinthe to in game dialogues...

[Maria13]

Xandurpein wrote...

Glad midsommar UpiH och alla andra!

Wishing each other a good midsummer, isn't that a bit, you know, pagan...  Cool.

[Costin_Razvan]

What is the taste absinthe anyway?

[Xandurpein]

Maria13 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Glad midsommar UpiH och alla andra!

Wishing each other a good midsummer, isn't that a bit, you know, pagan...  Cool.

Oh dear. Am I in trouble with the chantry now? I'd better harden Leliana quickly.

[Maria13]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

What is the taste absinthe anyway?

Best site I found http://www.oxygenee....com/index.html  It depends on the type of absinthe.

Each herb adds its own subtle character to the blend - grand wormwood has both woody and bitter notes; petite wormwood is aromatic but less bitter (and also useful for coloration); green anise gives its characteristic scent and rich smooth mouth-feel (which fennel also enhances); the dried hyssop flowers contributes to the classic absinthe feuille morte (dead leaf) colour.

Modifié par Maria13, 26 juin 2010 - 11:37 .