60 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria13]

Xandurpein wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Glad midsommar UpiH och alla andra!

Wishing each other a good midsummer, isn't that a bit, you know, pagan...  Cool.

Oh dear. Am I in trouble with the chantry now? I'd better harden Leliana quickly.

Yes, they'll set the templars on you...  Well, you could try that...

[MireliA]

I thought this was a great idea Xandurpein .



Seeing as this thread seems to be going slightly off topic, I thought I would say about a group I found on Live Journal called Little_Details. Its a group for writers to ask questions and try to get factual accuracy in their stories. They archive the old questions and it is interesting to read some of the questions.There are details on there about weapons etc. which is what reminded me about it.



Anyhow. at least absinthe doesn't make you go mad anymore...

[Xandurpein]

MireliA wrote...

I thought this was a great idea Xandurpein .

Seeing as this thread seems to be going slightly off topic, I thought I would say about a group I found on Live Journal called Little_Details. Its a group for writers to ask questions and try to get factual accuracy in their stories. They archive the old questions and it is interesting to read some of the questions.There are details on there about weapons etc. which is what reminded me about it.

Anyhow. at least absinthe doesn't make you go mad anymore...

Excellent suggestion. I'll look into it. Let me also say that if readers want it, I could try and write some about fighting between warriors and monsters like darkspawn, werewolves and ogres might look like. This is of course nothing but educated guesswork from me. There is after all a distinct lack of evidence in the matter, but maybe it can help visualize things a bit anyway.

[Addai]

Great overview, Xandur, thank you so much!

[Addai]

As an aside, it's too bad Ferelden has no tradition of mounted combat.  It's more exciting.    I actually have in mind that my Cousland queen would start a troupe of light cavalry, as counter to the chevaliers.  There is really no reason Ferelden shouldn't have mounted warriors except tradition.  The geography would be a hindrance in some areas but large portions of Ferelden are plains.

What do you think?

I'm inspired here by videos of Lajos Kassai.

Edit:  I think this is a style of warfare that elves would especially be suited for.  Perhaps the next generation of "Night Elves."  Though arming elves would always be controversial in Ferelden.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 juin 2010 - 11:17 .

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

As an aside, it's too bad Ferelden has no tradition of mounted combat.  It's more exciting.    I actually have in mind that my Cousland queen would start a troupe of light cavalry, as counter to the chevaliers.  There is really no reason Ferelden shouldn't have mounted warriors except tradition.  The geography would be a hindrance in some areas but large portions of Ferelden are plains.

What do you think?

I'm inspired here by videos of Lajos Kassai.

I'm pretty sure Ferelden do have mounted knights and that there are mounted troops in the books: It's just not in the game due to all the animation sequences needed to make it look good.

As for Ferelden light cavalry. Cavalry is a very cultural thing. Most medieval light cavalry comes from semi nomadic tribal areas where ordinary people lived a lot on horseback.  It would be hard to just create. Maybe this is what you are looking for though? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobelar

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 juin 2010 - 11:33 .

[Herr Uhl]

Xandurpein wrote...

Glad midsommar UpiH och alla andra!

*has finally sobered up*

Jag önskar tillbaks i efterskott.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

I'm pretty sure Ferelden do have mounted knights and that there are mounted troops in the books: It's just not in the game due to all the animation sequences needed to make it look good.

As for Ferelden light cavalry, maybe this is what you are looking for? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobelar

They had some- as I pointed out in my story, Loghain rode into the Battle of River Dane. 

I didn't realize Ireland had a tradition of light cavalry.  Interesting!  I was mostly thinking of Hungarian/Mongol style fighting.  The Mongol blade reminds me of the elven blades you see in the game, curved scimitars etc.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I'm pretty sure Ferelden do have mounted knights and that there are mounted troops in the books: It's just not in the game due to all the animation sequences needed to make it look good.

As for Ferelden light cavalry, maybe this is what you are looking for? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobelar

They had some- as I pointed out in my story, Loghain rode into the Battle of River Dane. 

I didn't realize Ireland had a tradition of light cavalry.  Interesting!  I was mostly thinking of Hungarian/Mongol style fighting.  The Mongol blade reminds me of the elven blades you see in the game, curved scimitars etc.

The hobelars, as you can see in the wkipedia article where more mounted scouts than true light cavalry, like the mongolians. As I tried to say, training such a force is much harder than you might believe, because it's so steeped in local culture. Something like Ferelden's version of hobelars that could lure chevaliers into bad ground is more reasonable.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

The hobelars, as you can see in the wkipedia article where more mounted scouts than true light cavalry, like the mongolians. As I tried to say, training such a force is much harder than you might believe, because it's so steeped in local culture. Something like Ferelden's version of hobelars that could lure chevaliers into bad ground is more reasonable.

That was my thought.  They would be more to harry than to initiate actual mounted combat.

It was my thinking that you hear enough about planned invasions into Ferelden (Qunari, for instance) that my Warden Queen would institute a military build-up, and this would be one area she'd do it in (edit: also as a counter to heavy horse such as the chevaliers).  Hopefully in future games we'll get a look at more varied fighting styles in Thedas.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 juin 2010 - 11:52 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai, the best example I can think of is the Battle of Tannenberg, 1410....The Teutonic Order had the BEST Heavy Cavalry in the entire world at the time, composed of highly trained and equipped Knights and Squires from the Order as well as other countries that had come to fight against "Pagans".

The Polish-Lithuanians side had heavy horses as well, mostly the nobles and their retainers, but most of the force was made of Light Cavalry, Mounted Skirmishers and Archers. I know that they had about 4.000 Light Horse sent from Moldovia as the entire Eastern Europe realized the importance of the battle.

The Light Horse defeated the Heavy Horse in battle, by drawing them into marshy ground where the heavy armor of the knights impeded them greatly while the light horseman could fight better. But they also were able to stand toe to toe against the heavy cavalry.  ( because the Order forces had spent almost the entire day under the burning sun waiting for the Lithuanians to attack from the woods, and thus were dripping sweat and exhausted )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 27 juin 2010 - 12:43 .

[Gilgamesh1138]

Thank you so much! I am going to be writing some of this fighting and this helps so much!

[Miri1984]

Xander - the SCA at my university always had the stall next to us at Orientation week. I loooved those guys. Never got up the courage to join though . This is a fantastic resource, thanks so much for posting it. Makes me want to go back and do medieval history all over again.

[Raonar]

Nice info. That bit about fighting large battles is especially something to consider.



Also, about medieval knights, I seem to recall that a full plate armor actually weighs about 80 kilograms or more, which is why Knights couldn't usually get back up after falling down. They were also hoisted on their horses too, since they couldn't normally climb up on their saddles on their own.



That said, it's more than likely that they only rarely wore full plate. There's also the matter of chafing This is also why chainmail eventually replaced full plate during jousts, if I remember correctly.

[LupusYondergirl]

Maria13 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

What is the taste absinthe anyway?

Best site I found http://www.oxygenee....com/index.html  It depends on the type of absinthe.

Each herb adds its own subtle character to the blend - grand wormwood has both woody and bitter notes; petite wormwood is aromatic but less bitter (and also useful for coloration); green anise gives its characteristic scent and rich smooth mouth-feel (which fennel also enhances); the dried hyssop flowers contributes to the classic absinthe feuille morte (dead leaf) colour.

My roommate once paid a small fortune to import bottles of absinthe from the Czech Republic and somewhere else (maybe Spain, but I can't recall).  I honestly couldn't tell the difference between either of those and normal pernod.  I think it's one of those things that you have to be really good at to pick up... like people who can drink a glass of wine and say "ah, hints of blackberry with an earthy finish" or something where a non-conesour like me would say "yup, that's a merlot." 

[Xandurpein]

Raonar wrote...

Nice info. That bit about fighting large battles is especially something to consider.

Also, about medieval knights, I seem to recall that a full plate armor actually weighs about 80 kilograms or more, which is why Knights couldn't usually get back up after falling down. They were also hoisted on their horses too, since they couldn't normally climb up on their saddles on their own.

That said, it's more than likely that they only rarely wore full plate. There's also the matter of chafing This is also why chainmail eventually replaced full plate during jousts, if I remember correctly.

The weight of medieval armour was seldom over 30-35 kilograms and it has very good weight distribution. A well trained man can do hand spring in full armour. It was only later during the renaisance, when they increased the thickness of plate armour to withstand musket balls that it became so heavy they got unwieldy.

And plate armour replaced mail armour, not the other way around, because it offers better protection and far better weight distirbution than mail armour. Mail armour was used up until the fourteenth century, when it was replaced by plate armour. That was when they learned to manufacture sheet iron and forge plate armor well enough.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 27 juin 2010 - 09:35 .

[Maria13]

I have a question Xandur for one of the romance mods. Would a knight get married in full armour? My view is they would not, it is simply too unpractical. I have only been able to find a few anachronistic victorian paintings portraying this, I think it's fantasy, but what is your considered opinion?

Modifié par Maria13, 27 juin 2010 - 09:43 .

[Xandurpein]

Maria13 wrote...

I have a question Xandur for one of the romance mods. Would a knight get married in full armour? My view is they would not, it is simply too unpractical. I have only been able to find a few anachronistic victorian paintings portraying this, I think it's fantasy, but what is your considered opinion?

I very much believe he would not get married in armor. Armor is bulky and heavy. They used armor for battle and war. No one wore armor at feasts or getting married in my belief. Here is at least one example.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 27 juin 2010 - 10:49 .

[Nithu]

A very useful thread indeed Thanks to everyone who's posted such useful information. I tend to avoid describing combat in my writing, contenting myself with a brief summary, as I have no clue when it comes to actual combat. I have lots of reading (and viewing!) to do...maybe I shall be braver in the future.

[Aetheria]

Maria13 wrote...

I have a question Xandur for one of the romance mods. Would a knight get married in full armour? My view is they would not, it is simply too unpractical. I have only been able to find a few anachronistic victorian paintings portraying this, I think it's fantasy, but what is your considered opinion?

Not that I'm a historian myself - but I would think that showing up to a feast or a wedding in armor would be not only impractical but impolite, paranoid, or even belligerent, like wearing a Kevlar vest to a dinner party. Medieval depictions of feasting and celebrations, like the one Xandurpein posted, usually show the participants wearing clothing not armor.

I've seen ceremonial suits of armor in museums (mostly, I think, from around the late Middle Ages and Renaissance), but it seems reasonable to assume that these would have been worn on parade or for other military occasions.

Modifié par Aetheria, 06 juillet 2010 - 08:20 .

[Xandurpein]

Aetheria wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

I have a question Xandur for one of the romance mods. Would a knight get married in full armour? My view is they would not, it is simply too unpractical. I have only been able to find a few anachronistic victorian paintings portraying this, I think it's fantasy, but what is your considered opinion?

Not that I'm a historian myself - but I would think that showing up to a feast or a wedding in armor would be not only impractical but impolite, paranoid, or even belligerent, like wearing a Kevlar vest to a dinner party. Medieval depictions of feasting and celebrations, like the one Xandurpein posted, usually show the participants wearing clothing not armor.

I've seen ceremonial suits of armor in museums (mostly, I think, from around the late Middle Ages and Renaissance), but it seems reasonable to assume that these would have been worn on parade or for other military occasions.

I have since that post seen texts suggesting that it was forbidden to even go armed with a sword in the palace if the King was there. Only guards on duty would wear armor in court or at other official occasions.

I think the reason we see so many armors in fiction is partly due to the fact that they seem impressive and very typical of the period to us, but also because we mistake medieval armor for modern uniforms. An officer can appear in dress uniform at civilian occasions. An officer is a special group in society set apart from civilians and they can mark their status outside war too.

It is very different in a feudal society. All noblemen were supposed to serve in the feudal army. There was no special caste of officers and thus no need to use uniforms outside battle to mark their special status. The closest thing to a uniform a nobleman would ever have is their heraldic arms, which could be used on normal clothes too.

Incidently, the fact that Loghain and Howe (and the PC) are in armor in all the cut scenes or at the Landsmeet seems rather weird to me. I can't imagine a king, or anyone else, appearing in armor in parlament or something similar in real life. It's about as reasonable as having the president appear in congress wearing a helemet and a flak vest.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 juillet 2010 - 10:33 .

[Maria13]

Aetheria wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

I have a question Xandur for one of the romance mods. Would a knight get married in full armour? My view is they would not, it is simply too unpractical. I have only been able to find a few anachronistic victorian paintings portraying this, I think it's fantasy, but what is your considered opinion?

Not that I'm a historian myself - but I would think that showing up to a feast or a wedding in armor would be not only impractical but impolite, paranoid, or even belligerent, like wearing a Kevlar vest to a dinner party. Medieval depictions of feasting and celebrations, like the one Xandurpein posted, usually show the participants wearing clothing not armor.

I've seen ceremonial suits of armor in museums (mostly, I think, from around the late Middle Ages and Renaissance), but it seems reasonable to assume that these would have been worn on parade or for other military occasions.

Good points from both.

That doesn't stop fantasy, though, do either of you recall the lovemaking in armour scene from Excalibur, between Urther Pendragon and Morgaine, I think?  It is totally LOL (am I showing my age here? Probably).

[Gnoster]

Xandurpein wrote...
Incidently, the fact that Loghain and Howe (and the PC) are in armor in all the cut scenes or at the Landsmeet seems rather weird to me. I can't imagine a king, or anyone else, appearing in armor in parlament or something similar in real life. It's about as reasonable as having the president appear in congress wearing a helemet and a flak vest.

Would make for some very interesting government debates if they were more like the DAO Landsmeet. I would imagine many more would actually watch their congressman/minister/delegate in such cases

[Xandurpein]

Maria13 wrote...

Aetheria wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

I have a question Xandur for one of the romance mods. Would a knight get married in full armour? My view is they would not, it is simply too unpractical. I have only been able to find a few anachronistic victorian paintings portraying this, I think it's fantasy, but what is your considered opinion?

Not that I'm a historian myself - but I would think that showing up to a feast or a wedding in armor would be not only impractical but impolite, paranoid, or even belligerent, like wearing a Kevlar vest to a dinner party. Medieval depictions of feasting and celebrations, like the one Xandurpein posted, usually show the participants wearing clothing not armor.

I've seen ceremonial suits of armor in museums (mostly, I think, from around the late Middle Ages and Renaissance), but it seems reasonable to assume that these would have been worn on parade or for other military occasions.

Good points from both.

That doesn't stop fantasy, though, do either of you recall the lovemaking in armour scene from Excalibur, between Urther Pendragon and Morgaine, I think?  It is totally LOL (am I showing my age here? Probably).

LOL. Guilty. I saw it when it was first shown in the theaters and laughed at it too. It was Uther and Ygraine though. Poor woman...

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 juillet 2010 - 01:17 .

[Arrtis]

Gnoster wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
Incidently, the fact that Loghain and Howe (and the PC) are in armor in all the cut scenes or at the Landsmeet seems rather weird to me. I can't imagine a king, or anyone else, appearing in armor in parlament or something similar in real life. It's about as reasonable as having the president appear in congress wearing a helemet and a flak vest.

Would make for some very interesting government debates if they were more like the DAO Landsmeet. I would imagine many more would actually watch their congressman/minister/delegate in such cases

As in the landsmeet...it can turn into a bloodbath.
When arl of red cliffe is in the landsmeet he is in armor while in his estate he is in regular clothes.
I do not understand why msot of the other nobles were not in armor.*maybe they do not know how to fight*