33 réponses à ce sujet

[T0rin3]

So I decided to take a break from my 1h/shield no-potion NM solo and start a mage solo. I've never done a mage solo, in fact, the furthest I ever got a mage was my first mage, who was an arcane warrior, got it to around 14. Mind you, I've finished the game 5 or 6 times now, 3 of those NM solos, but I never did play a mage into maturity.

So after struggling with my current NM solo, I was going to give myself a "break", and try a mage, as all I hear is that it is noticably easier than anything else. Alright, so if it's that easy, I guess I can do it as a no-potion NM solo, shouldn't be a problem, right?

Well, starting the game, I had no real troubles. Got through the circle without issue and into Ostagar. Got through Ostagar with a handful of reloads, and ended up having to cheese out the Ogre with Cone of Cold (boy, it really doesn't last as long as it used to, huh?), but that was kind of expected. (how else can you kill him without potions?)

I make a trip to Camp to deposit some items in storage (I had hit the 80 item limit near the end of Ostagar, and was destroying lower value items to pick up higher value items already) and saved my game. On to Lothering!

Well, kick me in the face and call me silly, but do people just skip the fight with the bandits? Sure, I had 2 Persuasion, I could have skipped it, but if there is one thing I really hate to do, it's bypass EXP. Plus those bandits are so arrogant, someone had to teach them a lesson. I proceeded to spend the next 2.5 hours reloading my game, over and over and over and over.

Yeesh, in all my NM solos, I've NEVER come across a fight this hard. To give some detail, up to this point I've taken the cold line to Blizzard, the Glyph line to Repulsion, and picked up Walking Bomb. Yeah, I know, I don't have heal. Yeah, I know, it sucks. Yeah, I know, I can't use potions either. I've realized that after spending hours failing what has always been an easy fight at level 6.

At about the 1.5 hour mark, I made a mistake, and cast a Glyph of Paralysis too close to me. (I was standing in the middle of the glyph of repulsion) Paralysis Explosion?  WTF? Well, doesn't this shine a whole new light on things. I had never taken the Glyph line in my previous, albeit short mage playthroughs, and never really read about spell combinations (although I did occasionally get the Cone of Cold + critiical to shatter months ago), so I had no idea this was even possible, but it invigorated me to keep trying.

At this point, I started to develop a strategy. Start the fight with Repulsion on myself, and back Allistair and Morrigan to the edge of the room, to hopefully keep them out of the fight. (although this had long since proven unsuccessful, as for some reason a bandit will randomly target one of them, regardless of the fact that they have no equipment or tactics, and just sit in the corner hoping everything will end soon) Then, once the Repulsion knocks back all the melee (and hopefully 2/3 of them knocked back into the archers), back up and drop Glyph of Paralysis to lock down the field. This could go wrong in a couple ways.... 1) Repulsion could knock 2 of the melee to the side, and my Walking Bomb part of the strategy will fail or 2) Paralysis Explosion could be resisted by any of the melee, getting me killed before I can take out a significant chunk of them.

Now, assuming everything goes right in the first 2 spells, I've got 2 melee (usually always the leader included) backed up with the 2 archers, and everyone locked into Paralysis. At this point, I drop Walking Bomb on one of the archers, and lay down Blizzard over everything. I then start shooting the guy with Walking Bomb, and hope to kill him before too many of the melee move out of range. If everything works out well, the leader will be frozen by the Blizzard when his paralysis breaks before everyone else's, and thus be hit by the bomb. Once the bomb goes off, that second melee and the second archer are pretty much dead, or doomed to die by Blizzard, leaving me with 2 melee, including the leader.

At this point, several things can go badly wrong... 1) the leader can just kick me to the curb, landing every attacks, stunning me, etc. etc. until I'm dead.. or 2) a random melee will break off and attack either Allistair or Morrigan (who are standing right behind me, as I had to keep out of the Blizzard radius), causing them tor retalitate with their first, hitting for 1 damage and ruining my 100% damage contribution. Now, I really have no idea why this happens, but in one out of every three games, it happens. It happens so fast, that I never see it soon enough to stop it, and either Morrigan or Allistair ruins my 100% damage. Ughhhhh. After even more reloads, I finally execute it perfectly.

Drop Repulsion on myself, back my two other dudes off, back up and drop Paralysis Explosion. Assuming everyone is paralyzed, drop Walking Bomb on an archer and lay down Blizzard. Start shooting the archer until he explodes, effectively dooming one of the melee and another archer, leaving me with the leader and one other melee. Keep shooting at the other melee (I find it easier to stay alive if I only have to deal with the leader, as I'll never kill the leader before they both get to me, but I can kill the other melee before then) and kill him before the last 2 get into melee range, (which usually involves cone of cold) then run away while my mana recharges so I can re-cast Glyph of Repulsion. Usually, by the time I run to the other side of the map and back, Repulsion is ready and I drop it on top of me, then proceed to shoot/Winter's Grasp until the leader is dead, then decide to kill him off.

If anything goes wrong along the way, I die. So about an hour after I started the Paralysis Explosion tactic, everything went right and I won the fight. Please tell me there aren't going to be many more fights that are so ridiculously hard like this one? Did I screw up my build already, dooming myself to anguish forever? I assume it can only get easier from here on out.

Modifié par T0rin3, 25 juin 2010 - 01:49 .

[Alesia_BH]

I recently did a Nightmare Solo with a Druidic character: she was a Shapeshifter/Spirit Healer with all of her spells restricted to the Creation School.

The Lothering Bandit fight was tricky for my character as well. For what it's worth, she placed her Repulsion Glyph on the path leading into the village and then ran. Predictably, the leader resisted while the others did not. The leader was killed in isolation. She used bombs.

Given my characters lack of Rock Armor and offense, running without potions wouldn't have been feasible for her. I would be reluctant to try it even with an unrestricted Mage since most Arcane builds are relatively potion dependent when solo. I can see problems on the horizon for your character- especially if you are restricting use of Swift Salves.

Using the Respec mod, I did do some experimenting with high level No Potion solo Mage builds. The Strength Shapeshifter/Bloodmage with Death Syphon and Death Magic showed promise. Getting that build to the late stages of the adventure would present challenges though.

Best of luck with your adventure TOrin3 (you may need it..)!

Cheers,

A.


Btw. If you want to try the Bandit fight without Alistair and Morrigan unavoidably running distraction, you can pay the Bandits off when you first see them. Then, dismiss Alistair and Morrigan. Go back, and open the Bandit's crates. They'll attack.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 25 juin 2010 - 03:17 .

[Last Darkness]

Booo lol I wanna hear your heroic acomplishment as the Str Tank, mage is too easy lol





good luck

[lazorexplosion]

If you get another level under your belt and get AW so you can put some blood dragon plate on and then if you add rock armor you'll have enough armor to be safe from physical attacks for a while. Until then things will continue to be very difficult. Even then a lack of mana will make things difficult.

[Elhanan]

You can have a lot of fun by placing that Glyph of Repulsion under opposing casters and archers at a safe distance, watch most of them springboard away like a fireless Fireball hit 'em, then drop the paralysis Glyph for the mass effect.

Many ways for the Glyph line to aid in battles: block doors and choke points, cast them around corners or in previously scouted rooms with closed doors, play pong with enemies stuck between a wall and the Glyph, anti-magic against mages or insulate your tank, buff troops when surrounded, etc. Great line of spells here!

One thing you may wish to do is to take a break when encountering a seemingly impossible encounter. Fresh eyes and mind may help you in choosing better tactics.

Recently, I ran into a Desire Demon/ enchanted Templar duo that left my AW dead each time I tried on NM, and I finally caved into lowering the Difficulty. If I had taken the time to go over tactics again, perhaps dropping a Glyph inside the room before entering may have been more effective than a simple frontal assault.

[swk3000]

T0rin3 wrote...

(I had hit the 80 item limit near the end of Ostagar, and was destroying lower value items to pick up higher value items already)

I take it you don't know about the second Backpack available in Ostagar. When you return to Ostagar after meeting Flemeth, the Ostagar Quartermaster will have restocked. He will have another Backpack for sale. This means you should walk out of Ostagar with 90 item slots, not 80. Not only that, but those are the cheapest Backpacks in the game. Both will set you back just over 1 Gold (1 Gold, 15 Silver, to be precise), and you will have that much more room through the Tower of Ishal. In comparison, the cheapest backpack outside Ostagar will cost you 5 Gold, 50 Silver.

It happens so fast, that I never see it soon enough to stop it, and either Morrigan or Allistair ruins my 100% damage. Ughhhhh.

Here's what I've been doing, and it's worked great so far on the 360. Basically, as soon as anyone joins my party, I pull up the menu. I unequip everything from them, then bring up their Tactics menu. I clear most of their list, then put the following Tactic in the first slot in their Tactics list:

Self: Any --> Wait

I then set their behavior to Cautious, as it's the only one that doesn't have them fight back if they're attacked by a melee attack.

I've had party members attacked a couple of times since I've started doing this (mainly because of cutscenes putting them right next to me), but not once have they attacked, and my 'Contribution to Party Damage' stat remains intact.

[Drudgep]

Wait, people have beaten the whole game using only their 1 Warden character??? So they have like 100% of party damage? On Nightmare?

[swk3000]

Yep. I'm working on a Dual-Wield Warrior, myself.

[Arrtis]

focus on the leader or use bombs.

I stopped my NM solo * i use potions though*

Can not imagine beating this game on some parts without potions.

[Alesia_BH]

Arrtis wrote...

Can not imagine beating this game on some parts without potions.

Solo? On Nightmare? I can envision it with a Rogue (Combat Stealth/Feign Death + Regeneration) and a lot of reloads. Beyond that, I have my doubts. Perhaps with some Mage builds, but it's hard for me to see.

I started fiddling with a Nightmare No Potion Solo Mage last night. She's a Strength Shapeshifter(*). She's gotten through Honnleath and Redcliffe but even that hasn't exactly been fun. Most of the early Random Encounters are completely ridiculous for her...

I'm not going to get a chance to finish this game since I'm leaving the country. And even if I were going to be around, I probably wouldn't bother with it. This falls into the maybe-kind-of-sort-of possible but definitely un-fun category for me.

Anyhoo. Once again, good luck TOrin3.


Best,

A.


(*) In case you are wondering, early on, she is like a Warrior who sacrifices offense for better Armor, better Defense, Heal, Drain Life, and earlier access to Magic Resistance. Later, she could be relatively efficient at interconverting Health and Mana thanks to Master Shapeshift Swarm - Human From: Blood Magic and could also have a number of ways of adding Health and Mana to the ecosystem (Death Syphon, Death Magic, Drain Life, Heal, Master Swarm and Shapechanges). I'm not convinced this would work in a full playthrough (there are too many hurdles in the midgame). It's sort of interesting to play with though...

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 27 juin 2010 - 03:35 .

[Rhys Cordelle]

I can understand why you'd want to play a solo nightmare game, but I don't understand playing it without quaffing potions :S To me, NM solo is about using every resource available to you.



And yeah, take that advice about the Self>Wait and Cautious tactics.



For me, soloing a mage I find Fireball invaluable. It can be easily positioned to strike all of your enemies in a fight like the bandit one, knocks them down and burns them while you run to a better position. Gotta love it.

[Alesia_BH]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

I can understand why you'd want to play a solo nightmare game, but I don't understand playing it without quaffing potions :S

For the added challenge. Some players enjoy stretching the boundaries of what's possible in the game world. I can understand that.

I wouldn't put myself in that category though- at least not when it comes to Nightmare No Potion soloing.

Nightmare Soloing can often force you to break the logic of encounters. If you omit potions, the required distortions become even more extreme. For my tastes, it ends up being a misuse of the engine- I can derive more enjoyment from it through other playing styles.

Still, I can understand why some might find it satisfying.


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 27 juin 2010 - 06:46 .

[Rhys Cordelle]

Fair enough, to each their own.



I can't help thinking of that freaking spider queen in the deep roads. Without potions, I don't think my rogue would have stood a chance.

[T0rin3]

Well so far, so good. That Lothering fight was the hardest fight I came across, except maybe the Darkspawn ambush that has an Emissary, 2 archers, 2 hurlock melees and 1 hurlock alpha. I always survive the early part of the fight, manage to kill the mage and both archers, but then my glyph of repulsion would die and I'd have no way to contain the 3 melees (since you cannot run around, there are like 40 leg traps in that map) before Repulsion would refresh. I ended up getting Hex of Misdirection and that let me keep the Hurlock Alpha in check, but at earlier levels, that fight always killed me.

So far, haven't had to use any potions. To resist the temptation, I just sell every potion I get, as soon as I get them. (I need the money anyways) I'm almost to level 15, and about to buy Lifegiver, still need to save for Spellward and Andruil's Blessing. My only other major purchase was Staff of the Magister Lord, and a bunch of talent books. I've finished the Circle (always do that first) and Redcliffe and part of the Sacred Urn. I did a bunch of sidequests for money (practically every one available to me) The hardest fights are the ones where I can't kill everyone fast enough and melees overwhelm me. I think I'm going to need to pick up Sleep or Mass Paralysis or something. I was going to get Blood Wound, but then I realized it screws up my 100% damage contribution everytime you cast with Blood Magic on, so there went that idea.

And my main motivation for not using potions, even on an NM solo, is because the game is too easy when you can full-heal yourself (or fully restore mana) with no delay and little cooldown.

Oh and I did pick up both backpacks in Ostagar, but don't you start with only a 60 item limit? If it's 70, then I had a limit of 90. Whatever my limit was at the end of Ostagar, I was destroying lower tier equips to pick up higher tier equips.

Modifié par T0rin3, 27 juin 2010 - 10:40 .

[lazorexplosion]

There is a mod that increases the potion/poltice cooldown, and makes it shared between similar types of potions (eg all lyrium potions will go on a cooldown if you use any type of lyrium potion). It's a good mod to increase challenge without being as punishing as no potions.

[Alesia_BH]

T0rin3 wrote...

Well so far, so good.

Congrats!

That Lothering fight was the hardest fight I came across, except maybe the Darkspawn ambush that has an Emissary, 2 archers, 2 hurlock melees and 1 hurlock alpha. I always survive the early part of the fight, manage to kill the mage and both archers, but then my glyph of repulsion would die and I'd have no way to contain the 3 melees (since you cannot run around, there are like 40 leg traps in that map) before Repulsion would refresh. I ended up getting Hex of Misdirection and that let me keep the Hurlock Alpha in check, but at earlier levels, that fight always killed me.

That spawn was brutal for my character at level 8-9. It's not too bad with range fighting abilities and the Glyph line, but I have my girl relying on melee and also have her running the Heroism line in lieu of the Glyph Line (both on stylistic grounds). She basically had to wait for Old Tegrin...    

So far, haven't had to use any potions.

Congrats again! Good luck with the rest.



Best,

A.


FYI. My Shapeshifter finished the Havenite quest recently- still no potions for her either. I'm not finding it fun though...



Btw...

lazorexplosion wrote...

There is a mod that increases the potion/poltice cooldown, and makes it shared between similar types of potions .

That's interesting Lazorexplosion. I may try that out for my No Reload games. Thanks!

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 28 juin 2010 - 03:30 .

[Rhys Cordelle]

Out of curiosity, would you guys consider the Improved Atmosphere mod to go against the spirit of a nightmare game? I mean because it adds equipment etc. (though I think it also ups the difficulty to compensate).

And what about all the DLC items? Should they all be disabled?

[Elhanan]

hehe! Why stop there? With the environmental moral view on Magic, perhaps only Mundane equipment should be used, and no casters.

As for me, I am content knowing I have a party, and my Stuff....

[Alesia_BH]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

Out of curiosity, would you guys consider the Improved Atmosphere mod to go against the spirit of a nightmare game? I mean because it adds equipment etc. (though I think it also ups the difficulty to compensate).

And what about all the DLC items? Should they all be disabled?

I'm reluctant to comment because I'm not sure this thread was intended to serve as a discussion of Nightmare Soloing ethics but I'll make a quick remark (TOrin3, feel free to let me know if responding to this was out of place. )


I haven't tried Improved Atmosphere so I can't comment on that at all.

As for DLC items...

Well, to my mind, they are marketing tools: incentives to buy downloadable content. That's fine -and I'm sure there are people who feel they got their monies worth- but I find that the items disturb balance.

Context matters and I can't really say how they'll effect your playthrough. But, personally, I leave them alone. 


Best,

A.

[T0rin3]

On the topic of Improved Atmosphere, it seems to just put more higher tier equipment in the world, for both you to sell and your enemies to use, so it may balance out, but short of playing a full run that I already have before (such as DW rogue, archer rogue, DW warrior, etc.) I couldn't say for sure.

Every decision I make on how to limit myself in a NM solo is based on the balance present in the unmodified game. The only mod I use (other than DLC) is the invisible helmet mod, and that's purely aesthetic.

On the topic of potions, I feel that any potions at all makes the game too easy. Surely, I have to reload fights a bunch, but going back to the original Baldur's Gate, that is the one thing that made me enjoy the game above all else: encounters that are just so hard that you have to try and try and try again, using an evolving strategy to win the day. If it isn't a challenge, if I can do every encounter on the first or second try, then it isn't hard enough. When you have to rely on your equipment for regen, when you can't just full heal or full restore your health (regardless of how many times you can do it during a fight), you're left to devise strategies that improve your overall gameplay, and make you think about encounters in new ways. 

Mind you, I'm not an advocate of cheesing out the AI, surely I could pull enemies one at a time, it's just not my thing. To me, it is artificial to limit yourself in so many ways to make the game more of a challenge (no-potion, no party, no companion skills, etc.) then go and make the game easier by cheesing out the AI. You either want a true challenge, or you don't. I'm ok with a certain character build not being able to accomplish the task of beating the game under an artificial, self-imposed set of restrictions, I'm ok with abandoning a playthrough because my character is not up to snuff, but for me, it is all in the spirit of making the game more challenging, and thus more enjoyable.

A lot of people don't like to have to struggle and fight during the course of modern games, I do. I've been playing games like these since their inception, and am saddened that modern day games are so watered-down to be more commercially acceptable, and I miss the days that games like this were really and truly challenging. Back in the days of Balgur's Gate 1, you didn't have to limit yourself to get a genuine challenge, now you do. While BG2 was less of a challenge, and you could solo the game, you didn't need even further restrictions (such as using no potions) to make it difficult. Modern games though, you need to restrict yourself in 10 different ways just to make the game fun and challenging. That's why I do it.

I enjoy Dragon Age, but really, the game is just too easy.

Modifié par T0rin3, 28 juin 2010 - 03:51 .

[Alesia_BH]

T0rin3 wrote...

 Surely, I have to reload fights a bunch, but going back to the original Baldur's Gate, that is the one thing that made me enjoy the game above all else: encounters that are just so hard that you have to try and try and try again, using an evolving strategy to win the day. If it isn't a challenge, if I can do every encounter on the first or second try, then it isn't hard enough.

I enjoy Dragon Age, but really, the game is just too easy.

As an side, it sounds like you'd enjoy Baldur's Gate with one of the newer Improved Anvil releases TOrin3.

I'm ambivalent about Improved Anvil because it tends to compel reloading (which I view as being a kin to God Mode) and limits tactical avenues for my favorite class, but given your gaming style, it may hit the sweet spot.: it was designed by a tactical gamer whose views on difficulty in RPGs accord with yours. Further, each version is probed for soft spots by a group of tactical gamers before release. You should check it out.

Cheers,

A.   
 

[Arttis]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Can not imagine beating this game on some parts without potions.

Solo? On Nightmare? I can envision it with a Rogue (Combat Stealth/Feign Death + Regeneration) and a lot of reloads. Beyond that, I have my doubts. Perhaps with some Mage builds, but it's hard for me to see.

I started fiddling with a Nightmare No Potion Solo Mage last night. She's a Strength Shapeshifter(*). She's gotten through Honnleath and Redcliffe but even that hasn't exactly been fun. Most of the early Random Encounters are completely ridiculous for her...

I'm not going to get a chance to finish this game since I'm leaving the country. And even if I were going to be around, I probably wouldn't bother with it. This falls into the maybe-kind-of-sort-of possible but definitely un-fun category for me.

Anyhoo. Once again, good luck TOrin3.


Best,

A.


(*) In case you are wondering, early on, she is like a Warrior who sacrifices offense for better Armor, better Defense, Heal, Drain Life, and earlier access to Magic Resistance. Later, she could be relatively efficient at interconverting Health and Mana thanks to Master Shapeshift Swarm - Human From: Blood Magic and could also have a number of ways of adding Health and Mana to the ecosystem (Death Syphon, Death Magic, Drain Life, Heal, Master Swarm and Shapechanges). I'm not convinced this would work in a full playthrough (there are too many hurdles in the midgame). It's sort of interesting to play with though...

NM solo on x box is much harder than PC.
I have yet to try any main plots of my mage.
I did  kill the blood mage in the hideout and got the magister's shield though.

[T0rin3]

Game is pretty fun so far, I'm level 16. Last night I finished the Urn quest, made heavy dragon armor and used the gold I had saved to pick up Evon's Mail instead of Spellward. I have 3% fatigue in heavy armor with no sustains on and have I think 4 stam/mana (which seems to be the same) regen per second from equips, (1 from evon, 1 from dragon armor hand/feet, 2 from staff) which alongside natural regen and combat mastery regen, is enough to counteract Spell Might and still give me decent regen in combat. Have 4 total health regen, 3 from livegiver and 1 from Evon's mail, still using subpar equipments on the waist and neck, although I don't think I'll ever get enough money to buy Andruil's Blessing and Spellward.

High Dragon didn't require any potions, just kept healing myself to counter Fire Spirit and shooting away with my staff and occasionally using Vuln/Affliction hex as I had mana for them. So I'm still potionless, with no need to use potions in sight. Flemeth should be a cakewalk, just like High Dragon, and Gaxkang will probably die to a single Mana Clash under vuln/affliction hex.

The only thing that sucks is my mana with Spell Might and Spell Wisp on is pretty bad, something like 219 total. I even have more HP than I do mana with those 2 sustains on. Still wondering whether Spellward for the stamina or Andruil's Blessing for the regen will be a better investment. Probably going to go for Spellward, since Destructionist's Belt is a decent alternative to Andruil's Blessing... still get a bonus to spellpower and regen, just not nearly as much regen. Guess I can always toggle off Spell Might if I need more regen, which I end up doing all the time anyways. I'd like to pick up Rock Armor to put me up into the high 40s/low 50s for armor, but I don't think I can afford the added hit to mana.

[Elhanan]

^ As mentioned elsewhere, I prefer to place 1 pt of Willpower into each Lvl Up. This aids Mana & Stamina. and the remaining magic score is still huge.

[T0rin3]

Wow, um, so I'm to another one of those fights. I'm level 18 now I believe, and doing the Branka fight. If I side with Branka and have to fight Carridin instead, it's even harder, as he's immune to lightning. (my other element of damage) I'm completely at a loss of how to complete this fight.

I've got these spells:

Arcane Bolt Line to Staff Focus
Full Cold Line
Lightning Line to Tempest
Heal
Glyph Line to Repulsion
Spell Wisp
Mana Drain Line to Mana Clash
Walking Bomb Line to Death Syphon
Mind Blast to Forcefield
Hex Line to Misdirection
Combat Magic

This is one of those fights that I don't know how I would do it unless I used a lot of potions. Even then, once the two wimpy Stone Golems on my side are down, I'm lucky to have killed 1 Stone Golem, much less enough to survive the remaining onslaught. I have 253 health and 252 mana (after Spell Wisp and Spell Might, but I always end up turning off Spell Might for extra regen) and 15.8% fatigue with the aforementioned sustains.

I guess I simply chose the wrong spells along the way, but I've done a lot of reloading a couple levels back and saving talent points so I could pick up a full line at once, to test, then reload and pick other spells to test. These are simply the spells that proved worthwhile after all that testing.

The map itself offers no room for tactical movement, there are no choke points that I can use Glyph of Repulsion to setup a Storm of the Century, and I refuse to use the Storm/Forcefield "tactic", I have to maintain 100% party damage, and I can't do that if I take even a single point of friendly fire damage. Lyrium Vein's offer too long of a delay to be helpful, they just get me killed.