390 réponses à ce sujet

[Frogman1975]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Arrtis wrote...
When the concoles are fixed up to the same point as the pc I will agree the pc is as important.
Console users are left with less free stuff and long lasting problems with no answer.

Console users should already be happy of what they got, considering that console development and certification issues are slowing down PC development considrably, and even more, the whole release of the game (that was scheduled for the beginning of 2009) has been delayed several months in order to accomodate the needs of console users.

That's why the development of console ports should have been completely separate to begin with, and should have never influenced the development of the PC version of the game.

Edge of Reality works only on some aspects of development, while many development processes are common, and that's one of the elements that makes this game such a mess to begin with.

Patching should be entirely separate. When a patch is ready on PC it should be released on PC, when a patch is ready (and certified) on a console, it should be released on that console, without any version bogging down the others.

Yes. As a mainly PC gamer. I agree that I would have liked to see them focus on putting out an exemplary PC game, and then later, down the road, porting that over to consoles with no issues.

I would also like them to put out patches without holding back for across the board fixes (I think the PC game would be running much, much better already if that were the case.)

But, man... listening to everything else you've said, I really can't believe that you believe "Console users should already be happy (for) what they got." 

I just can't believe you'd think anyone should be happy paying $10 more for a bug-ridden product.

[Arrtis]

Did i really?

Let me just say i am a mostly honest person on the internet.

[Abriael_CG]

Frogman1975 wrote...
But, man... listening to everything else you've said, I really can't believe that you believe "Console users should already be happy (for) what they got." 

I just can't believe you'd think anyone should be happy paying $10 more for a bug-ridden product.

Nowadays PC development takes a backseat to console development 9 times out of 10. Most of the times in multiplatform development the PC version is ported after the console version is released.

I don't think console users (and I'm an all-platforms user, mind you) should really feel any wronged if, for once, console develpment would take a backseat to PC, especially considering that this game sold (and is still selling) more on PC than on any other platform, and that console gamers normally move over to new games much faster. Most of those that got the console version already moved over to the next title (probably multiple times) and patching the game won't benefit them.

It's a simple matter of logic and numbers. Completely separating PC development from consoles would simply benefit the vast majority of the players that still play dragon age today.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 30 juin 2010 - 04:07 .

[Frogman1975]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Well your only gonna replace a console with an upgraded version of it every decade or so.As for a computer it could take less time.Consoles are very cheap compared to computers.

The life cycle of consoles is actually around 6 years before the next generation comes out. PCs are getting there with technology progress slowing down a lot.
prices are also going down considerably. With 500 dollars you can get a very viable gaming PC nowadays.

Yeah. There is no need to spend thousands. If you aren't afraid to put the pieces together yourself,  you can build a very nice gaming rig, or buy and upgrade an otherwse bare-bones PC that has a good processor, for even less. I honestly didn't get a PS3 until very recently, when they came out with the slim and the price dropped, because it was cheaper for me to build a better PC to push Crysis than it was to purchase a console.

[MaxQuartiroli]

Abriael_CG wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...
Unluckily the problem is not only the tecnology progress of the PC components but also how much and how fast grow the specs requested  by the applications to work....

And games under this point of view are worse than bloodsuckers...

My actual PC is 1 year and half old... I won't be surprised if when DA2 will be released it will be already obsolete for play it...

Not anymore. If your PC is obsolete in 1 year and half, then you bought an obsolete PC to begin with.

My PC is not obsolete now.. It was one of the newest models when I bought it... Not one of the most powerful but a very good PC

But I foresee that DA2 won't be out until end of 2011 early 2012.. and it would mean that when they will release it my PC will be 3 years old then... 3 years is a long time, and I won't be surprised if I would find trouble to play it

Anyway.. I already decided to buy a new one this winter.. I have only to choose between Dell Alienware and Acer Predator.. It will be a big expense, I know, but at least I'll know that I won't have to mind about obsolescence for 7-8 years....... I hope...... 

  

[Frogman1975]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Frogman1975 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...


Not that I know of but the PC already received 3 or 4 patches so that could be it. In the Dwarf origins you don't get back the siezed bonus items when you escape but it may have been patched on the PC already.

Yeah. I played it from day one, and I got all my items back playing on PC. Must just be a console thing.

It most deffinitely is/was a PC issue too. This thread discusses the workaround for the PC: http://social.biowar.../9/index/363377

Ah! It apparently only impacted Dwarf Nobles (see link below). Since I was playing as a commoner, I was completely fine. So odd.

http://help.dragonag...p?p_faqid=23654

[BrunoB1971]

You are far better of buying your parts and building your pc on your own than buying pre-made.



I have already bought 2 Dell pc's only to find out that you can't really upgrade them. They have properitary parts and this dont jive with the parts that are sold at computer stores if you want to upgade afterwards.



I rebuilt my rig from scratch and this summer, All i had to do was change the mobo, cpu and ram. the rest i already had and it was compatible with my mobo......anf for half the price of a Big huge Dell rig you can buy all the parts put it togther and have a kick ass machine that is gonna be upgradeable for years to come and has more powerfull than the dell box.



Going for a pre-made pc is not a good investment for a gamer. Dell have pre determined form factor cases and motherboard and you cannot easily upgrade your video card afterwards which ia a big part of your computer and it becomes obsolete very fast.



Shop for your parts, read reviews, buy parts at discounted price and make someone build your rig if you dont wanna do it, you will save tons of money and have a future proof pc....

[Arrtis]

building and upgrading your own computer is something i will never do.Il take pre made.

[Darth_Trethon]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Frogman1975 wrote...
But, man... listening to everything else you've said, I really can't believe that you believe "Console users should already be happy (for) what they got." 

I just can't believe you'd think anyone should be happy paying $10 more for a bug-ridden product.

Nowadays PC development takes a backseat to console development 9 times out of 10. Most of the times in multiplatform development the PC version is ported after the console version is released.

I don't think console users (and I'm an all-platforms user, mind you) should really feel any wronged if, for once, console develpment would take a backseat to PC, especially considering that this game sold (and is still selling) more on PC than on any other platform, and that console gamers normally move over to new games much faster. Most of those that got the console version already moved over to the next title (probably multiple times) and patching the game won't benefit them.

It's a simple matter of logic and numbers. Completely separating PC development from consoles would simply benefit the vast majority of the players that still play dragon age today.

Link? I clearly remember the 360 version being in the top 10 sellers at gamestop at one point with the PC version nowhere in sight. Beyond that there's a reason why PC development gets the backseat just like it is about to run out of shelf space at gaming retailers.....the PC version simply isn't selling as well and devs gave console development the front seat when PC users weren't purchasing for PC.

[Frogman1975]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Frogman1975 wrote...
So should they layoff the folks working on DLC to hire more coders or something? Those folks won't know anything about the code they are fixing and it would take longer to get them up to speed than it would to just muscle through.

You continue to assume (wrongly) that professional game development is made of airtight compartments and that  working on DLCs only implies playing with the toolset, requiring unqualified personnel that can't code for the life of them (a bunch of glorified modders basically). This is simply not the case, since creating a working DLC involves coders and playtesters as well.

A studio with a speck of professionality would be responsible towards their existing customers that are suffering from an unfinished and unpolished produdct and redirect all the able hands to working and testing patches in order to fix what's already broken instead of building further on shaky foundations. 
The ones that can't work on that (mainly writers and artists) can still easily work on assets for future DLCs in order for that part to be ready when the main game is fixed and the time to work on DLC finally comes. It's not doctor's orders to finalize a DLC immediately and assets prepared in advance can still be used later. There's no need to "layoff" anyone, even if honestly, looking at the abysmal quality of the work done on Dragon Age, some layoffs might be in order, but for entirely different reasons.

This, obviously, without even mentioning the fact that a sizable slice of the bugs that the game suffers from aren't coding bugs, but are related to the sloppy use of the toolset that create bugs in quest continuity and itemization. This means that even toolset specialists could very easily help in patching several parts of the game.

Ergo, there's absolutely no professional justification for prioritizing DLCs if not the simple will to create more revenue while leaving customers that already paid for the initial product stranded.

The point I was actually getting at with the entire post, and not just that one out of context quote above, was that the internal process is likely much more complicated than we can imagine.

Yes, I'm impacted by bugs. Yes, I'm annoyed. Yes, I wish they'd go ahead and release the PC fixes that we know they probably have done instead of waiting to fix all at once. Yes, they've screwed up, and they owe us all a token bone of some sort.

But I'd rather have one patch that fixes things than multiple band aid patches every 3 weeks that end up breaking something that then needs fixed in another patch. And I think that is what the previous patches were. I'm hoping this one, this far out, and this long in coming, will finally be the "good" one instead of the "cheap, fast" one.

[Abriael_CG]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...
My PC is not obsolete now.. It was one of the newest models when I bought it... Not one of the most powerful but a very good PC

But I foresee that DA2 won't be out until end of 2011 early 2012.. and it would mean that when they will release it my PC will be 3 years old then... 3 years is a long time, and I won't be surprised if I would find trouble to play it

Anyway.. I already decided to buy a new one this winter.. I have only to choose between Dell Alienware and Acer Predator.. It will be a big expense, I know, but at least I'll know that I won't have to mind about obsolescence for 7-8 years....... I hope...... 

You identified the problem. You're buying pre-built PCs, and that's the most costly way to get a PC (alienware is the worst coice of them all, since you pay mostly for the brand), not to mention the perfect way for it to be obsolete fast, since very often either you cqan't switch out single components or doing so voids the warranty.

The only real way to get a good gaming PC for a very good price and being able to switch single components at will is to assemble the PC yourself from the components you chose, without having a "brand" chose them from you, quite often making choices that aren't really optimized.

It's MUCH cheaper, it allows you to chose exactly what you need, and when a component becomes obsolete, you can change that only without having to change the whole PC (with evident side-benefits, like not having to reinstall everything on a new PC). Even in the case that you don't hacve the technical knowledge to assemble the PC yourself (which is easy anyway), 99% of component retailers have building services too, and will deliver the PC pre-built if you so require, with a small overcharge. It'll still be much, much cheaper than getting one of those massively overpriced (and actually ugly) Alienware PCs.

Arrtis wrote...

building and upgrading your own computer
is something i will never do.Il take pre made.

Then don't complain. When you have a very viable, cheaper and more efficent alternative and chose not to pursue it, you're the only one at fault.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 30 juin 2010 - 04:18 .

[Arrtis]

Pre built is so awesome
much better than building it yourself.

Modifié par Arrtis, 30 juin 2010 - 04:20 .

[Frogman1975]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Frogman1975 wrote...
But, man... listening to everything else you've said, I really can't believe that you believe "Console users should already be happy (for) what they got." 

I just can't believe you'd think anyone should be happy paying $10 more for a bug-ridden product.

Nowadays PC development takes a backseat to console development 9 times out of 10. Most of the times in multiplatform development the PC version is ported after the console version is released.

I don't think console users (and I'm an all-platforms user, mind you) should really feel any wronged if, for once, console develpment would take a backseat to PC, especially considering that this game sold (and is still selling) more on PC than on any other platform, and that console gamers normally move over to new games much faster. Most of those that got the console version already moved over to the next title (probably multiple times) and patching the game won't benefit them.

It's a simple matter of logic and numbers. Completely separating PC development from consoles would simply benefit the vast majority of the players that still play dragon age today.

HAHAHAHAHA. And I agreed with all that! 

Still doesn't mean anyone should be happy with a buggy game. Even if most of them moved on, those who paid $60 for DA:O on PS3 or 360 have the same expectation that when a game is released on their platform, it should work as advertised.

See. You're almost dragging me into arguing with you, taking my quotes out of context, even though we agree. You're a tricksy one Abriael, but I'm not falling for it, lol.

[Frogman1975]

BrunoB1971 wrote...

You are far better of buying your parts and building your pc on your own than buying pre-made.

I have already bought 2 Dell pc's only to find out that you can't really upgrade them. They have properitary parts and this dont jive with the parts that are sold at computer stores if you want to upgade afterwards.

I rebuilt my rig from scratch and this summer, All i had to do was change the mobo, cpu and ram. the rest i already had and it was compatible with my mobo......anf for half the price of a Big huge Dell rig you can buy all the parts put it togther and have a kick ass machine that is gonna be upgradeable for years to come and has more powerfull than the dell box.

Going for a pre-made pc is not a good investment for a gamer. Dell have pre determined form factor cases and motherboard and you cannot easily upgrade your video card afterwards which ia a big part of your computer and it becomes obsolete very fast.

Shop for your parts, read reviews, buy parts at discounted price and make someone build your rig if you dont wanna do it, you will save tons of money and have a future proof pc....

Oh, you can upgrade a Dell... you just have to take a dremel tool to the case back of whatever box you want to put it in so you can plug your cables in, and probably dangle the power supply out of a front drive bay, but it can be done.

Modifié par Frogman1975, 30 juin 2010 - 04:23 .

[BrunoB1971]

Arrtis wrote...

Pre built is so awesome
much better than building it yourself.

No to be impolite but you seem the kind of guy that has very set opinions on things and wont budge on them no matter what, even if you are proven wrong or that something might impact you in a negative way....am i correct?

[Frogman1975]

Arrtis wrote...

Pre built is so awesome
much better than building it yourself.

LOL. I think you may be my new favorite troll.

[BrunoB1971]

Frogman1975 wrote...

BrunoB1971 wrote...

You are far better of buying your parts and building your pc on your own than buying pre-made.

I have already bought 2 Dell pc's only to find out that you can't really upgrade them. They have properitary parts and this dont jive with the parts that are sold at computer stores if you want to upgade afterwards.

I rebuilt my rig from scratch and this summer, All i had to do was change the mobo, cpu and ram. the rest i already had and it was compatible with my mobo......anf for half the price of a Big huge Dell rig you can buy all the parts put it togther and have a kick ass machine that is gonna be upgradeable for years to come and has more powerfull than the dell box.

Going for a pre-made pc is not a good investment for a gamer. Dell have pre determined form factor cases and motherboard and you cannot easily upgrade your video card afterwards which ia a big part of your computer and it becomes obsolete very fast.

Shop for your parts, read reviews, buy parts at discounted price and make someone build your rig if you dont wanna do it, you will save tons of money and have a future proof pc....

Oh, you can upgrade a Dell... you just have to take a dremel tool to the case back of whatever box you want to put it in so you can plug your cables in, and probably dangle the power supply out of a front drive bay, but it can be done.

yes you could McGyver it...but ihave come into situations that i wanted to put a 10.5 long video card in the box only to find out that the cpu and cpu fan system is in the way and that the power supply does not have the adequate wires to juice up the card i wanted...so no, i said to myself, i am not gonna deal with that crap anymore and bought all my parts and assemble my machine myself...and it is easy now to assemble a pc...almost foolproof....

[Abriael_CG]

Darth_Trethon wrote...
Link? I clearly remember the 360 version being in the top 10 sellers at gamestop at one point with the PC version nowhere in sight. Beyond that there's a reason why PC development gets the backseat just like it is about to run out of shelf space at gaming retailers.....the PC version simply isn't selling as well and devs gave console development the front seat when PC users weren't purchasing for PC.

You're forgetting a little detail. More than half of the sales of PC games, at the moment, are digital download. This not only means that PC sales are much, much higher than what Gamestop or other brick & mortar data would indicate, but they also cause an higher net revenue, since digital download has much lower publishing costs.

Sorry to burst a bubble, but plenty developers demonstrated that PC only or prioritized PC development is still very viable. The Witcher is currently the best RPG out there, and it's PC only (and it beats Dragon Age down to a pulp under every aspect). It Gave CD Projekt abundant revenues that allowed them to work on a sequel with a completely new engine and they're showing off results that Bioware will probably never achieve even 10 years from now. And even for the sequel, while console development is possible, PC will be prioritized.
This is what bioware should have done to begin with, but it seems that they're destined to achieve less than an obscure polish developer with 5 times less employees.

Arrtis wrote...

Pre built is so awesome
much better
than building it yourself.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Frogman1975 wrote...
The point I was actually getting at with
the entire post, and not just that one out of context quote above, was
that the internal process is likely much more complicated than we can
imagine.

not everyone is completely in the dark on professional game development processes, you know? A game developing studio isn't a vodoo sect with obscure rituals and mumbo jumbo, and not everyone here speaks out of simple hearsay.
Just saying

Upgrading a dell? Much better just staying away from that crap. I can't believe so many people still didn't discover Newegg and similar sources yet.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 30 juin 2010 - 04:35 .

[WonderGamer]

Frogman1975 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

1) The Dwarf origins not being able to keep the preorder and DLC items we start the game with. I WANT to play these origins but I never will until this is fixed.

Is this a console bug? My first playthrough was with a dwarf commoner, on PC, and I got to keep all my items.

This bug is only one of the reasons why I reverted back to 1.02a.  It happens at any point where your inventory gets cleared.  It was fixed at one point, but was broke again in 1.03.

Modifié par WonderGamer, 30 juin 2010 - 04:41 .

[Frogman1975]

BrunoB1971 wrote...


yes you could McGyver it...but ihave come into situations that i wanted to put a 10.5 long video card in the box only to find out that the cpu and cpu fan system is in the way and that the power supply does not have the adequate wires to juice up the card i wanted...so no, i said to myself, i am not gonna deal with that crap anymore and bought all my parts and assemble my machine myself...and it is easy now to assemble a pc...almost foolproof....

Oh yeah. I was in the exact same situation myself, is how I know. I actually bought another box with a better power supply and then cut out the back so I could attach my cables. And because of the proprietary Dell components, I had to dangle the power switch out the front of the box (which actually gives me two more USB ports to make up for the ones that came attached to the box that I can't hook to the Dell board.)

I cussed and kicked and yelled trying to make that crap fit. And I eventually did. But I learned then to never buy a Dell product again.

[Frogman1975]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Frogman1975 wrote...
The point I was actually getting at with
the entire post, and not just that one out of context quote above, was
that the internal process is likely much more complicated than we can
imagine.

not everyone is completely in the dark on professional game development processes, you know? A game developing studio isn't a vodoo sect with obscure rituals and mumbo jumbo, and not everyone here speaks out of simple hearsay.
Just saying

Well, of course not. I may not be a developer, but I work in the tech industry. And in any job there are office politics and other things that, unless you want to confess to us you are a BioWare employee, we got to admit we don't know anything about. That is all I'm getting at.

Like I said. I'm as frustrated as the next guy. I've finished Red Dead Redemption, I don't really want to go back to BioShock 2. I want to finish my Dragon Age games. 

But arguing about DLC impacting patches. It's a red herring.

The only thing bad about DLC is that it gives the impression that BioWare isn't focusing it's resources the way some folks want them too. From a PR point of view, it might have been better to hold off on a few of these DLC that take place outside of the main campaign, just to reinforce that impression that "we are focused completely on this patch". But the actual reality is, Leliana's Song and Darkspawn Chronicles, taking place as they do outside the main storylines, really could be the kind of content that only artists and writers were working on, while anyone with coding experience who could be working on patches were focused on that.

In fact, if I were doing PR for BioWare that is exactly how I would spin this recent DLC in the forums, "Hey, we know that some people are disappointed with DLC that occurs outside the main storyline. We understand your desire to see new content involving your Warden. However as the core game team is focused on patches, this content, which will not impact your main game, is being offered to give you some Dragon Age related fun while you wait. Thanks and we hope you enjoy." Do this, release at least one free DLC standalone adventure (Darkspawn Chronicles would have been perfect for the free crap) , charge for some others after the announcement, and, well... people would still complain about the wait and the bugs. As they'd have a right to do. But at least we wouldn't keep getting off track and going down the DLC rabbit hole every time a patch thread is put up.

I'd say you are much, much more on track when you are discussing waits related to console fixes holding up pertinent patches for PC. And I really wish they did the patches separately too. But they aren't going to, because then they deal with an angry community crying that they give preference to one platform over another. So all we can do is wait. And hope that this one, when it comes out, is going to actually be a good one that fixes what it promises to fix.

[Frogman1975]

Abriael_CG wrote...


Upgrading a dell? Much better just staying away from that crap. I can't believe so many people still didn't discover Newegg and similar sources yet.

Man. We really need to find your sense of humor. I wonder if we can get a patch for that? 

(Also TigerDirect.com is my favorite. Cheap. Quick delivery. When I've had a problem (one time with a bad video card) they've replaced it quickly.)

Modifié par Frogman1975, 30 juin 2010 - 05:18 .

[MaxQuartiroli]

Abriael_CG wrote...

It's MUCH cheaper, it allows you to chose exactly what you need, and when a component becomes obsolete, you can change that only without having to change the whole PC (with evident side-benefits, like not having to reinstall everything on a new PC). Even in the case that you don't hacve the technical knowledge to assemble the PC yourself (which is easy anyway), 99% of component retailers have building services too, and will deliver the PC pre-built if you so require, with a small overcharge. It'll still be much, much cheaper than getting one of those massively overpriced (and actually ugly) Alienware PCs.

I know for sure how to assembly a PC.. I am system engineering with 12 years of experience.. But just because I spend 8-10 hours a day in solving and troubleshooting problems since 1998 when I go out from my office and I arrive at home the LAST thing I feel like doing is to begin to work again on a PC...

Here is why I buy pre built PCs... When I am at home the only thing I want to do with my PC is press power on button and play... You may find it strange lol... like a mechanic who doesn't repair his car... or a pastry chef who doesn't like to eat pies.. but I am so...

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 30 juin 2010 - 05:16 .