29107 réponses à ce sujet

[REMspace]

You're right. Many people would like to know more about Garrus, but BioWare prefers to leave a strange aura of mystery around him. If they love "the mystery", then they could spare all those dialogues with Thane or Jacob....

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

REMspace wrote...

You're right. Many people would like to know more about Garrus, but BioWare prefers to leave a strange aura of mystery around him. If they love "the mystery", then they could spare all those dialogues with Thane or Jacob....

I don't want other people to lose their content.  I don't resent the other LIs.  I love Tali and Thane too.  I like Miranda and Jack.  The only one I dislike is Jacob.  I don't want others to get short-changed.  I just don't want my LI to get treated like a weird secondary fetish.  I am begging for equality here not to get content at other people's expense.

this! 

[Collider]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Collider wrote...

The two returning squad mates also have the least amount of Normandy conversations. Literally everyone else has more conversations.

Yes this, but Tali gets to flirt with Shep during her loyalty mission.

The dialog is the same for both genders, actually, so I don' t think it was flirting. Friendship stuff more like.

I actually heard a few people on this thread say that Garrus flirts with Shepard in his recruitment mission when Shepard says "you shot me!" but Male Shepard also gets the same dialog exactly the same way.

Garrus definitely gets to flirt with F!Shepard (and her only) after you recruit him. The Krogan scar thing. Tali doesn't have anything like that.

Tali has post romance scene dialog.

yea, that's true. Though I suppose you could say it's to check on her and see if she didn't get too sick.

Plus, you get hand holding,

yep, but there is still some touching in Garrus' romance.

Kasumi explicitly stating Tali loves you,

True.
But Garrus is a little more insular with his feelings. Kasumi mentions that it's hard to tell with Turians, but despite that, she can definitely tell Garrus has feelings for F!Shepard.

Kelly saying Tali wants to be more than friends,

Well you get something about Garrus too, Kelly says that you and Garrus would be a good couple. IIRC, F!Shepard can say something along the lines of "yea, we would."

and a bunch of other stuff.

Other than what was listed, not too much if anything else.

Garrus really is particularly short-changed.

It's true, Garrus was the most short changed, but in general he and Tali have the least amount of stuff.

I've done the Jacob romance and his romance definitely dwarfs them in terms of "content." The quality of course isn't all there. But they seemd to have focuses on the other 4 romances the most.

Miranda has a kiss, a hug, more conversations, and lots of skin (though I don't care about this).
Jacob has 3 kisses at least, more conversations, hand holding, asking how Shepard is, and skin.
Etc.

Modifié par Collider, 14 juillet 2010 - 09:59 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Collider wrote...

The two returning squad mates also have the least amount of Normandy conversations. Literally everyone else has more conversations.

I know, it's a pity because...well...everybody loves them and the little conversations you do have with them are interesting (Ever talked to Garrus about his work on Omega? Epic. They were the A team.)
If they return again, I hope they make them more talkative. That, or the normandy has crappy guns and the engine always needs cleaning.

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 14 juillet 2010 - 09:57 .

[REMspace]

Also I like the content, I was just a provocation. I am only for equal content. All characters must have their content ....

[REMspace]

Exactly. Would not it hurt to know some more information on his work as vigilant about Omega ....

[Collider]

Oh I know, I wasn't trying to make it a competition. I love 'em both and my two Shepards romanced them. Garrus does have the least, though. I don't really know why.

[REMspace]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

REMspace wrote...

You're right. Many people would like to know more about Garrus, but BioWare prefers to leave a strange aura of mystery around him. If they love "the mystery", then they could spare all those dialogues with Thane or Jacob....

I don't want other people to lose their content.  I don't resent the other LIs.  I love Tali and Thane too.  I like Miranda and Jack.  The only one I dislike is Jacob.  I don't want others to get short-changed.  I just don't want my LI to get treated like a weird secondary fetish.  I am begging for equality here not to get content at other people's expense.

this! 

That was just a provocation. We must think about things and that's what I did. I would equal content for all characters, so as not to upset anyone.

The point is summed up thus: Bioware must understand that the law is equal for everyone. Can not give more content and less a character or to another. We could talk for hours, but we're all right. If Bioware takes note of these problems, we hope to have a ME3 something for all tastes (and everyone will be happy) ...

[Collider]

You bring up good points, Raga. Sorry if I came off as argumentative. wasn't my intention.



On this subject, though, I was thinking. Where do you want to see the Garrus romance go in ME3?

[REMspace]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Likewise, Remspace, I wasn't trying to get preachy on you. I was just trying to clarify my viewpoint so people can't dismiss what I am saying as "scewed ranting." I want to show it is not anger or resentment which is motivating me, but evidence and facts.

And indeed you're right.
But also serve the provocations to make understand these things to BioWare, otherwise we will always be unhappy. I'm not bitter and I think ME2 a masterpiece, but I regretted not having more content for Garrus.

[Alexine]

I think Garrus gets the cop out over Tali. Although Tali has just as few lines, Tali is more forgivable when she responds to quarian-like issues (credit chit, SI representative, sick krogan, etc), as well as getting her screen-time earlier than all the other squad-member recruitments (imagine the rage if Tali was able to be recruited on Freedom's Progress).

And I think entertainment mediums (films, video games, novels, etc) need to stop treating women in general to liking certain stereotypes in male characters. I mean, it works wonders (Alistair for example), but in the end, it would get old if you constantly reuse them (Jacob was one. Now after watching New Moon for the first time, I think it was homage to how fangirls wanted to see the other Jacob topless =.=). What made Garrus appeal more to me was that he had a big mix of all the features that a woman likes in an attractive male character, yet it is twisted in a way because of his alien-ness and how he is a very obviously flawed, yet realistic character.I think he was unique in a way because his character did not have much exaggerations as in other male characters designed to appeal to women.

Modifié par Alexine, 14 juillet 2010 - 10:43 .

[kglaser]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Yea, I meant that it doesn't have full voice-over and has that "point and click" combat system.  It's also really responsive to what your race and class is as BG was, but the flavor or vibe of DAO is nothing like BG at all (at least to me it wasn't.)  How can I put it?  It played like an old RPG, but it didn't "feel" like an old RPG.  It felt much more postmodern.  I guess it depends on what parts of DAO you didn't like.  Me, I missed full voice-over and responsive combat.  But I loved the story and characters.  However, I do think Mass Effect is better.  If it was the story and characters you didn't like than nevermind.

On DAO, I didn't "like" the characters so much as I "appreciated" them.  Say what you will about liking them, but they are some of the most complex and nuanced characters Bioware has ever made.  A lot of thought went into them and for that reason I really appreciate them on an artistic level even if the only people I really "like" are just Alistair, Shale, and the dog.

I don't dislike DA, per se...I just can't get into it.  I haven't even played it long enough to meet most of the characters, but the ones I've met, I do like.  I think I'm about Level 4?  I'm probably going to finish it eventually, except that right now it feels more like a chore and less like a fun game, and that's making me sad.

[janeym27]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Yet most of Garrus lines are about nothing but discussing awkward sex. He never out and says anything overtly emotional like Tali or Jack or Thane does. Heck, you can even get an "I love you" out of Jacob if you play it right. I know the emotion is there, but you have to dig deep and really interpret some things to get it. A lot of people finished the game and wondered "was Garrus really into that?" or "was he just having awkward sex with Shep to appease her?" What he actually thinks is largely a thing of implication and assumption.

I think that's specifically why Bioware made a point of making Kasumi point out "The word is that Garrus really likes you."  That's the only point where something like that is explicitly stated and a lot of fangirls were really wandering what Garrus thought.  Kasumi voices a lot of fan concerns (like how she asks Shep about having sex in the engine room "right where Tali works.")  I think the devs are totally reacting to fans there.

I have often read the conversation-fixation on sex with Garrus as a sign of how much is at stake emotionally for him in this relationship. He’s not much of a feelings guy at the best of times, but by embarking on a romantic relationship with his friend and commander - not to mention the only person in the galaxy he can really trust – he is leaving himself incredibly vunerable. I mind the lack of conversation with him because more Garrus is always good, but I actually don’t have a problem with the awkward, saying-very-little-about-how-he-feels dialogue you get with him during the build up because I think the way he trails off in the cumulation scene makes it clear that there is a reason so much is left unsaid. I’m not sure it’s in Garrus’ nature to be emotionally open like that so easily, which is why he leaves it until the last possible moment. I don’t think Garrus would ever have gone with Shep ‘just to appease her’. He’s not the type to be forced into doing anything he doesn’t want to do, and is one of the crew who will call Shep on her BS. Even while talking him out of shooting Sidonus, Shepard has to physically put herself between him and the bullet to get him to back off. This is not a weak minded man (conflicted, yes. Weak, no.) It’s funny, but I’ve never considered that there would be anyone who would have thought that Garrus didn’t want the relationship to happen at all. He certainly sounds enthusiastic enough about it while talking to her, not to mention how crushed he is if Shep calls it off.
 
In fiction, unless a character actually says the words “I think this,” it’s always assumption and implication. People make careers and write books based on explaining these things. But think about life. How often do you genuinely tell people exactly what you think, in those exact words? I know I seldom say exactly what I mean, even when I want to. (Sometimes I don’t even know what I think.) I agree with you about the Kasumi comments pandering to fan reaction, and I do like those as cute little throw away lines, but I think that giving us much more than that brings it in danger of falling into that bad writing trap of having characters state how they feel. I also think that for Garrus to have had an outpouring of emotion before actually making it to the romance scene would have been untrue to the character. The other danger in a game like Mass Effect of having a character be too explicit about their feelings towards Shepard means that you remove an element of that subjective interpretation which can drive how people play the game. For example, I know that there are players who play their Shepard as embarking on the Garrus romance purely as a way of ‘blowing off steam’, and ot wanting to take it any further. If Garrus is more obvious about his emotions, this choice of RP becomes Shepard-as-horrible-person, rather than Shepard-as-oblivious-and-casual. As it is, I think there is wiggle room in all of the romances for differing interpratations of exactly where the character’s head is at. Garrus’ lack of emotional dialogue (for want of a better description) doesn’t necessarily mean his is any vaguer. I remember one of our lecturers saying once that in script writing, sometimes you say a lot more by saying less – it’s all about subtext. People in real life rarely say what they mean, so it’s the same on screen (think of that bit in Annie Hall with the subtitles). Sometimes saying what you mean is too risky. For Garrus in that situation, this is most certainly the case.
 
But, yes. Now they’ve done the physical thing and that went…however it went, more dialogue, please! Let’s talk about Sidonus, if Shep has to kick his ass to get there. Give us more turian information. Let Garrus talk about his past a little more (he's not into feelings, but he showed in ME1 he doesn't mind sharing a good war story). I agree - his overall dialogue amount was woefully inadequate for an established character. But then, thinking about where his head must have been at after the Omega debacle, I can almost understand that. Almost. Just don't let it happen again! (I dunno if it's because she ended up joining the squad so late, or if it's just my Garrus bias, but the Tali dialogue amount never felt insufficianet to me. Well, not in comparison to the thoers. Obviously, I wanted more dialogue in general. ME2 was severly lacking in squad banter!)

[lovgreno]

I think I will trust Bioware to make the best story they can. Pleasing every kind of fan is impossible though so we may have to accept that some squadmates and romance options might not be present in ME3. I can imagine less popular romances like Jacob and Miranda being cut in favour for Tali and Garrus. Wich is quite fine by me of course. By showing our support to Garrus they may be inspired to make a even better romance for him in ME3.

[REMspace]

Hopefully Bioware listening! I think ME3 will be even better.

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Precisely, I think a lot of guys were initially weirded out that so many women liked Garrus. Mostly I think the guys have come around though. At least, the guys on the forums have. I have to admit though that I can be a sucker for stereotypes. In fact, the only LI for women I have expressly disliked to date was Jacob. I have loved or at least liked all the others. The reason I disliked Jacob was because he was boring. I think "interesting" is the best angle for women or at least it is for me. "Sexy" and "sweet" are nice additions. But interesting is the main thing.

I agree on the "interesting" part....sexy and sweet are things EVERYONE can have but interesting? that's just rare!

I read a fanfic the other day named "Vulnerability"....it actually describes the entire emotion stuff pretty sweet and just how I imagined it to be between Garrus and Shep. I for example don't see any of my Shepars be that open about their feelings towards anyone either. I mean, most of the time, Shepard is just Shepard.....tough, the leader.....no one really knows this person! I think, that's why we all adore the commander. It leaves just so MUCH room for EVERYTHING! Good guy, bad guy....paragon, renegade! soft, tough.....it's just woah! And I do like that about Garrus as well..I don't need to hear about his emotions. I liked how Thane told Shep how he's come to care about her. But that's basically it. Everything else is just talk about the past. And this leaves room for everything. We can go on from here and make up our own emotional background for all the characters. I like that! And I don't want it any other way.

Jacob is just meh! Another reason I really didn't like the entire Jacob stuff is that my Shepards always acted like cat in heat when talking to him. The tone of their voice just grossed me out! *barfs* If the Devs think that's how flirting is supposed to be, no thanks! Pass!

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

@janey

I agree with you and as someone who writes lots of stories and is even currently trying to finish a novel I know exactly what you mean about "show, don't tell." However, there is an opposite fallacy as well, and that is "assuming people will catch the subtext." Sometimes, you can be too mysterious for your own good. I have often found that it is better to expressly state what I mean when I am writing if it is something the reader needs to know. Before I started doing that I got lots of complaints of "you're being too mysterious" or "I don't understand" or else people assuming things that were not what I meant at all. Likewise, I know people don't always reveal their emotions in real life, but this is not real life. It is a game. Realism is important, but it is even more important in a story to make sure the player/reader/watcher understands what's going on. Realism and mystery at the expense of clarity usually obscures the whole situation and makes it have less impact. I know Garrus isn't touchy/feely and I don't want him to be, but you can't have him behave like a rock and expect the players to just know what he was thinking. I actually dumped a guy in real life once because he would never bloody tell me what he thought! He thought I should just magically know it all the time and then got angry when I misinterpreted something he did. Implication and interpretation are needed, but a viable romance can't swing purely on that especially one in a story where I expect some coherency and narrative.

I agree Garrus would be very awkward in the follow-up and wouldn't volunteer information himself. Why can't my femshep blatantly ask him then? Why can't she say "Garrus, I want to know what you think about this." I don't mind having to prod him if it's in character and it is. I don't want Garrus to become weak and sentimental. I just want him to open up and tell me what he thinks more often. That doesn't have to be sappy, maudlin, or out of character.

Oh I am definitely with you on that. I didn't mean to say that they should keep it the way it is now. I just don't want them to turn Garrus into some sort of "OMG I WUV  U SHEPPY HERE HAVE A FWOWER" kinda guy that follows her like a puppy. I liked how they handled that in ME2 so that those who wanted their Shep to just release some steam could do so while others had the chance to read between the lines. I am really hoping for some more conversations in ME3 and IF Brandon is VA again, then I have no doubt that Garrus' voice will be perfect once again during certain conversations. I would love to see some flirting but also have the chance to openly talk about stuff, not necessarily emotions but still. Like in ME2, I was a bit bummed out that I had no chance to talk to Garrus about meeting Kaidan. In a way I was kinda hoping for a discussion about that, especially if you bring Garrus to Horizon and Kaidan says, so you and Garrus work for Cerberus now.....which basically means, you both are traitors now. I was hoping in a way, that this would open one or two more dialogue options back on the NOrmandy like it did with Joker and Kelly. I mean, Kelly? Seriously? Sucked hamster testicles! And not emtional talk with Garrus, no, more like analyzing talk with Garrus...like, so that with Kaidan wasn't really that good. You okay? yes-no / don't know/ oh spare me with that crap......I can't believe he called me/us/you a traitor!