29107 réponses à ce sujet

[BubbleSauce]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I like the idea, there's a lot of great fanfic out there that portrays the Saren and Nihlus' relationship very well, but in terms of how it's portrayed in the game, saren just shoots him, there is no change in his expression, no change in tone, and no indication that he feels what he is about to do is wrong. And even what he says before he does it:

"Don't worry... I've got it all under control"

Now, I'm sorry, but there is an undeniable sense of confidence there, he sounds like a bond villain for god's sake. Believe me, I love the idea that fans have created, but that's really all that it is, an idea. There is really nothing in the game that would even so much as suggest that Saren showed remorse over killing Nihlus. 

Also, think about it, Shepard is able to convince saren that he's indoctrinated and that there nothing he can do about it, yet being forced to kill his best friend doesn't make him question the reapers motives at all? Lets face it,
it's either a plot hole or Saren's a d*ck

Now, on to other one, (this is a very slippery slope we're going down btw) I'll be honest, I don't like saren, he's a xenophobe, and I have very personal reasons for despising xenophobes and racists.

Here's what we know, he denied Anderson entry from the spectres purely because he was human, he felt absolutely no remorse (there's that word again) over killing 100s of innocent workers, simply to achieve so, now I don't care how you try to justify his prejudice, that is just bad, and it's not just a "wow, d*ck move" kind of bad, it's completely unjustifiable. I think it is literally criminal that he used such means the meet an end which meant absolutely nothing. Anderson was a talented soldier, there isn't any denying that, and saren killed hundreds of innocents just to keep humans from gaining power. I don't care what you say, that is disgusting.

Before you bring up arrival, let me just make the distinction, that what shepard did was not out of hatred for the batarians, he/she did it to save the rest of the galaxy, the reasoning behind shepard's "crime" is sound, where as saren merely comitted a hate crime.

Ok now that I got that off of my chest, here's what I theorize:
I highly doubt Saren could have simply become indoctrinated all of a sudden, the reapers bent him to their will even before he was indoctrinated, I think the reapers offered him a chance to strike back against humanity, they tempted him with the opportunity to destroy Eden Prime and many other human colonies, sovereign gave that opportunity and him then indoctrinated him. Maybe from there on out, he was forced to do stuff he didn't want to do, but I don't believe saren was so stupid, as let himself just become indoctrinated, the process takes days, weeks even!

Sorry, but I don't like Saren and I do think he's evil, you have to give credit to bioware though, he's right up there with Captain Vidal and The Joker in my top villains of all time... 

This probably offended just about everybody on this thread, so I'm sorry in advance for tearing up your flower gardens and pooping on your rainbows but that really is how I feel...

Edit: Oh come on! This is the worst possible time to get TotP! *Sigh* fair enough...

Here's some gay turians by Lady Grush...

Modifié par BubbleSauce, 10 août 2011 - 10:36 .

[dannybates]

Miracle of Sound (The guy who did the Commander Shepard Song) to Premere Mass Effect Song Live with BioWare

The Escapist's own Gavin Dunne (Aka. Miracle of Sound ) will appear on stage with BioWare and premiere the video for his new song "Normandy." The video for "Normandy" won't premiere on The Escapist until August 24th so people at GamesCom will get a significant preview.

^^^ damn ninja pic'd  

Modifié par dannybates, 10 août 2011 - 10:37 .

[BubbleSauce]

God damn it Danny, you literally beat me to posting the image I was going to use for TotP!!!

Edit: GAH! Ninja edited! 

Modifié par BubbleSauce, 10 août 2011 - 10:38 .

[Chewin]

BubbleSauce wrote...

*snip*

This probably offended just about everybody on this thread, so I'm sorry in advance for tearing up your flower gardens and pooping on your rainbows but that really is how I feel...

Offended? By stating your opinion? Hardly.

How could you offend us when you gave such a valid opinion of what you think of Saren? I mean I agreed in some points of your post - if not even the whole post. I would say that you gave the opposite expression (at least to me)

[Lady Olivia]

BubbleSauce. Of all the things you said, only these I take issue with:

 
I don't like saren, he's a xenophobe, and I have very personal reasons for despising xenophobes and racists.

I am saddened to hear that. But wouldn't a xenophobe be a person who hates all aliens, everyone not of their own species? Saren only hates humans. I know it's a thin line, but there's a line. I think.

 
saren killed hundreds of innocents just to keep humans from gaining power

It's been a long time since I read Revelation, but I don't remember that Anderson's candidacy had anything to do with the way Saren decided to handle the mission with the refinery. Sure, Anderson was in his way, and if he wasn't there, perhaps Saren would have been more... careful; but I personally doubt there would have been any difference. Anderson's status, or possible future status, simply had nothing to do with it. Saren didn't blow the rafinery because of his thing against humans, but because he saw it as the most efficient way to accomplish his goal.

Now, don't get me wrong; Saren does exhibit psychopathic behavior and tendencies, so I'm not trying to defend his actions, on Camala or on Eden Prime. I'm only disagreeing with the idea that they were motivated by his hatred for humans. He had more important things on his mind.

As for indoctrination... well. Saren danced with Sovereign for what, 18 years? Of course he wasn't indoctrinated all out of the sudden. And yes, when he set out to find Sovereign, he may have had turian supremacy on his mind, but somehow I don't think that was what he strove for at the time of ME. Even when divorced from romantic ideas related to his friendship with Nihlus, I firmly believe he thought he was working for the good of the entire Galaxy.

It's what makes him such a great villain, in the end: the fact that he's not a one-dimensional, evil character  with no other defining properties. He's also brilliant, resourceful, and incredibly strong-willed. And that, my friend, is why I like Saren.

Edit to comment on this:

This probably offended just about everybody on this thread, so I'm sorry in advance for tearing up your flower gardens and pooping on your rainbows but that really is how I feel...

No need to worry - at least about me. The rainbow part - well, I know you're right in that department. Doesn't make a bit of a difference to how I imagine the character(s).

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 11 août 2011 - 12:14 .

[youngling]

In all honesty, I think Saren just stopped caring who he kills. If they were in his way, he will most likely remove them one or another without a second thought. It was like that with Nihlus... Saren probably didn't want to kill, but again, he had to remove the obstacle.

Saren must be an idiot to think that the reapers were going to let him live. I don't know... That's just how I see him. As much as I adore him, he is a huge dick. 

Modifié par youngling, 11 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[phantomdragoness]

youngling wrote...

In all honesty, I think Saren just stopped caring who he kills. If they were in his way, he will most likely remove them one or another without a second thought. It was like that with Nihlus... Saren probably didn't want to kill, but again, he had to remove the obstacle.

Saren must be an idiot to think that the reapers were going to let him live. I don't know... That's just how I see him. As much as I adore him, he is a huge dick. 

Of course, remember the Reaper indoctrination made him think they would let him live.

He's a dick in the sense that he'll sacrifice innocents to get the job done.

[youngling]

phantomdragoness wrote...

youngling wrote...

In all honesty, I think Saren just stopped caring who he kills. If they were in his way, he will most likely remove them one or another without a second thought. It was like that with Nihlus... Saren probably didn't want to kill, but again, he had to remove the obstacle.

Saren must be an idiot to think that the reapers were going to let him live. I don't know... That's just how I see him. As much as I adore him, he is a huge dick. 

Of course, remember the Reaper indoctrination made him think they would let him live.

He's a dick in the sense that he'll sacrifice innocents to get the job done.

Got a point there. It pretty sad that he had to shoot himself to escape it. 

[Lady Olivia]

youngling wrote...

phantomdragoness wrote...

youngling wrote...

In all honesty, I think Saren just stopped caring who he kills. If they were in his way, he will most likely remove them one or another without a second thought. It was like that with Nihlus... Saren probably didn't want to kill, but again, he had to remove the obstacle.

Saren must be an idiot to think that the reapers were going to let him live. I don't know... That's just how I see him. As much as I adore him, he is a huge dick. 

Of course, remember the Reaper indoctrination made him think they would let him live.

He's a dick in the sense that he'll sacrifice innocents to get the job done.

Got a point there. It pretty sad that he had to shoot himself to escape it.

It's also a miracle that he had the willpower to do it. You know, indoctrination and all. Not to mention the unspeakable courage it must have taken. Say what you will. Saren is a hero. And I, a desperate fangirl.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 11 août 2011 - 08:56 .

[BubbleSauce]

Lady Olivia wrote...

I am saddened to hear that. But wouldn't a xenophobe be a person who hates all aliens, everyone not of their own species? Saren only hates humans. I know it's a thin line, but there's a line. I think.

It's a thin line indeed, by defininition, a xenophobe is "a persone who fears or hates foreigners, strange customs, ect." He grew up around salarians and asari therefore it's understandable that he would accept that they are a sentient species of equal rights, humanity came in late, killed his brother, blah blah blah, we all know the story. Xenophobia is a borad term but what I meant to say was that he was exibiting it towards humanity specifically.

In regard to your other comments, If I remeber correctly, the fact that the innocents died was used as an excuse to keep anderson out of the spectres, he said that Andersons careless actions forced him to blow the refinary, and pinned it one anderson, in reality, he was not at all forced to blow it, he just did it to have an excuse to keep Anderson out of the spectres.

Lady Olivia wrote...

Now, don't get me wrong; Saren does exhibit psychopathic behavior and tendencies, so I'm not trying to defend his actions, on Camala or on Eden Prime. I'm only disagreeing with the idea that they were motivated by his hatred for humans. He had more important things on his mind.

Bare in mind that my idea of the reapers being able to indoctrinate saren by tricking him into beleiving he would be striking against humanity in purely speculatory on my part, as for Camala, I'm nearly certain that that was just to keep anderson out of the spectres, I don't know I'll have to check the wiki on the one.

Lady Olivia wrote...

It's what makes him such a great villain, in the end: the fact that he's not a one-dimensional, evil character  with no other defining properties. He's also brilliant, resourceful, and incredibly strong-willed. And that, my friend, is why I like Saren.

Please don't get me wrong on this one, I like Saren, I'm not trying to justify the fact that I dislike him, I'm trying to justify why I think he's evil. I mean even if you don't think he's evil, can you at least admit that he's not a nice guy? I mean, would you like to have a beer with saren?

Nihlus? Sure! Lorik? Absolutely! Gavorn? Beer and possibly some other extremely strong intoxicants, but Saren? He'd probably kill you before you had the chance! Eh, maybe it's for the best, any kind of liquid would probably bugger up whatever kind of tech the reapers shoved in his face to brainwash him.

Lady Olivia wrote...

It's also a miracle that he had the willpower to do it. You know, indoctrination and all. Not to mention the unspeakable courage it must have taken. Say what you will. Saren is a hero. And I, a desperate fangirl.

A hero?! You can't just have one noble redemption act and become a hero!! I don't even know what to say other than I disagree whole heartadly...

*sigh* I don't even know... I sound like an ****

Heres an adorable picture by Lady Grush, She's really been one fire lately!

[Obsydian]

Bubble:  You have offended me and I'm leaving forever. 
Ok that's a terrible lie. lol.  Seriously though, we're all allowed to have opinions. And honestly, the fact that you back up the fact that you don't like Saren with reasons and facts....  *shrug*  who am I to tell you what you can and can't like.

I don't necessarily agree with you...and Olivia was pretty astute in her reasoning, and I fully support the things that she said. 

I also think that while yes, Shepard was able to convince him that he was indoctrinated... i think that it took some serious convincing. Nihlus didn't even get the chance to do that. Had he been given the chance,  who knows whether or not he'd have been able to.  But being indoctrinated gives him the initiative to kill anyone who gets in his (or Soveriegn, in this case)'s way. I don't see Saren being the remorseful sort even without that though. He makes a decision and he sticks with it.

*shrug*


[quote]Lady Olivia wrote...

Got a point there. It pretty sad that he had to shoot himself to escape it. [/quote]
It's also a miracle that he had the willpower to do it. You know, indoctrination and all. Not to mention the unspeakable courage it must have taken. Say what you will. Saren is a hero. And I, a desperate fangirl.
[/quote]

Aaaaaannnnd. This.  I think this just says it all right here. I agree more than a little. 

Also, Olivia.... i read your story. I read it on my phone so i havent been able to comment on it yet, cause for some reason my phone won't let me do that. but it was AMAZING. beyond. I cried. a lot. and raged.  and it was beautiful. 

[Skits]

Okay, gonna cover my rear and start with a bit of a disclaimer - I apologise in advance if this comes across as... a little rant-y. Or a lot rant-y. XD It's not directed at anyone, I mean no offence to anyone, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions, which I totally respect. It's just that Dad recently got hit by a truck while out cycling, so I'm not feeling as... laid-back as usual, I guess. Anyway, onto the inevitable wall-o-text!

Honestly, I've never liked Saren. At all. Bioware did a great job with him - I like to dislike him. XD He's definitely a villain with depth and character, and I'll also concede that he's a fairly tragic character as well. But I have to agree with Bubble - a hero he definitely is NOT. What happens if you don't convince him to off himself? He fights you. He doesn't really even ATTEMPT to fight Sovereign or the indoctrination. Not everyone is going to have the paragon/renegade to convince him, or is even going to bother trying. Is he still a hero then? Hahaha hell no.

Sure, resisting the indoctrination long enough to shoot himself MAYBE proves his strength of will, and maybe even redeems himself somewhat, although it doesn't come anywhere near making up for all the crap he's done. Anyone remember the poor Asari he fed to the Thorian? And that's just one person he's affected. Let's not forget Liara's mother, a respected matriarch who he exposed to indoctrination, used as a weapon and a tool to further his own goals, and then abandoned on Noveria to be killed by Shepard and, if you took her, Liara herself. Then there's all the civilians he killed on Eden Prime, and him offing his student without even a moment's hesitation or the briefest glimpse of remorse, then or afterwards. He then uses Nihlus' records to get more of an edge on Shepard. Saren doesn't even pretend to show any grief at Nihlus' death during his "trial" at the Presidium Tower - he's just pissed off that they're wasting his time. I could go on, but hell, you all know the stuff he's done probably even better than I do. My memory's kinda balls. XD

But heroism? No. Courage? Ha. If anything, by shooting himself he's taking the easy way out. "I don't think I can fight back, so I'm not even going to try." That was pretty much Saren's entire reasoning for working with Sovereign in the first place. "We can't fight them, so why even bother trying! Submit and maybe they'll let you live as some augmented techno-organic nightmare!" Now, to be fair, I don't know if Saren thought that himself, or if it only came about through Sovereign's indoctrination, but he didn't even TRY to fight it.

And then Sovereign takes his corpse over and you get to fight zombie-terminator-Saren ANYWAY. Whee! Despite his maybe-noble intentions at removing himself from the conflict, all it REALLY did was give Sovereign free reign with his body. Sure, Saren probably didn't mean to, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened anyway.

Hell, it's entirely possible Sovereign encouraged Saren in his idea to kill himself so Sovereign could take over his corpse. "It's a miracle that he had the willpower to do it", you say. It's entirely possible he didn't. Saren had pretty much outlived his usefulness by then, since he was starting to fight against the indoctrination and Sovereign was now at the Citadel. All Sovereign needed at that point was something to take care of Shepard and co. - zombie-terminator-Saren kgo!

Yeah, that plan didn't work out so well. But if it HAD, if zombie-terminator-Saren had killed or even just incapacitated Shepard and crew for long enough, Sovereign would've been able to overcome the lockout from Vigil and regained control of the Citadel, and then the Reapers would've WON. Sovereign would've no longer needed Saren anyway. So by then, Sovereign was just using and discarding a tool he no longer needed beyond that point.

I just really, really don't like Saren; to me, he's a bloody tosser, his attitude in the books made me like him even less, and him offing himself in the end doesn't even come close to making up for his human-hate, his ruthlessness and general d!ckery, or all the other crappy crap he's done because he didn't have the quad to tell Sovereign to go shove it, indoctrination or not.

Anyway, this is all just my opinion, and I really hope I haven't offended anyone with it. ; We've all seen what happens when I get going on a topic, aheh.

[BubbleSauce]

Wow skits, and I thought I was a cynical bastard!  

In all seriousness though, I agree with you entirely, you articulated your point far better than I did.

*High Five* or *Fist Bump* or whatever the hell kids do these days...

[Chewin]

Skits wrote...
Honestly, I've never liked Saren. At all. Bioware did a great job with him - I like to dislike him.

Isn't that more or less the point with Saren? Or more like, isn't that often the point when there's a hero and a villain? People often hate the villain and always wants him dead so that the hero can win. I as well can't see Saren as a hero. Saren isn't like Loghain. Their goals where pretty much the same yes, but Loghain has limits . . . Saren doesn't.

Sure, resisting the indoctrination long enough to shoot himself MAYBE proves his strength of will, and maybe even redeems himself somewhat, although it doesn't come anywhere near making up for all the crap he's done. Anyone remember the poor Asari he fed to the Thorian? And that's just one person he's affected. Let's not forget Liara's mother, a respected matriarch who he exposed to indoctrination, used as a weapon and a tool to further his own goals, and then abandoned on Noveria to be killed by Shepard and, if you took her, Liara herself. Then there's all the civilians he killed on Eden Prime, and him offing his student without even a moment's hesitation or the briefest glimpse of remorse, then or afterwards. He then uses Nihlus' records to get more of an edge on Shepard. Saren doesn't even pretend to show any grief at Nihlus' death during his "trial" at the Presidium Tower - he's just pissed off
that they're wasting his time. I could go on, but hell, you all know the stuff he's done probably even better than I do. My memory's kinda balls. XD

And that exactly what I mean when referring to Loghain and Saren.

Saren did all those things to ensure that not everyone would be affected by the harvest of the reapers. And saying that he did it for the greater good is like saying a crazy person is not crazy, when he obviously is. I mean look at Saren, does he look human (turian?) to you? Cut of the fringe and you have a talking zombie. A sexy talking zombie, but you get the point!

../../../uploads_user/2465000/2464671/146171.jpg

But heroism? No. Courage? Ha. If anything, by shooting himself he's taking the easy way out. "I don't
think I can fight back, so I'm not even going to try." That was pretty much Saren's entire reasoning for working with Sovereign in the first place. "We can't fight them, so why even bother trying! Submit and maybe
they'll let you live as some augmented techno-organic nightmare!" Now, to be fair, I don't know if Saren thought that himself, or if it only came about through Sovereign's indoctrination, but he didn't even TRY to
fight it.

Here I have to disagree. Yes, I think he still in the end standed by his idea that they could fight the reapers, but when my Shepard tried to convince him, I think he saw a glimps of hope, but he knew he couldn't do anything about it, not anymore. So he left it all up to Shepard. He didn't do it b/c of lazyness, but there was no other way for him.

And then Sovereign takes his corpse over and you get to fight zombie-terminator-Saren ANYWAY. Whee! Despite his maybe-noble intentions at removing himself from the conflict, all it REALLY did was give Sovereign free reign with his body. Sure, Saren probably didn't mean to, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened anyway.

Soveraign always had an ace up in his sleeve. He expected that if the impossible would happened, there was always a plan B.

Hell, it's entirely possible Sovereign encouraged Saren in his idea to kill himself so Sovereign could take over his corpse. "It's a miracle that he had the willpower to do it", you say. It's entirely possible he didn't.
Saren had pretty much outlived his usefulness by then, since he was starting to fight against the indoctrination and Sovereign was now at the Citadel. All Sovereign needed at that point was something to take
care of Shepard and co. - zombie-terminator-Saren kgo!

I was gonna disagree with this whole post, but it is entirely possible. Though I still disagree with the bolded part

Yeah, that plan didn't work out so well. But if it HAD, if zombie-terminator-Saren
had killed or even just incapacitated Shepard and crew for long enough, Sovereign would've been able to overcome the lockout from Vigil and regained control of the Citadel, and then the Reapers would've WON. Sovereign would've no longer needed Saren anyway. So by then, Sovereign was just using and discarding a tool he no longer needed beyond that point.

Hard to say here really. I don't see the reapers as a traitorous type. They still want a species to live so that they can evolve in time with new technology and stuff. Maybe they would have let Saren been their leader, or maybe they would have killed him b/c he knew too much. I really don't have a opinion here.

I just really, really don't like Saren; to me, he's a bloody tosser, his attitude in the books made me like him even less, and him offing himself in the end doesn't even come close to making up for his human-hate, his ruthlessness and general d!ckery, or all the other crappy crap he's done because he didn't have the quad to tell Sovereign to go shove it, indoctrination or not.

Anyway, this is all just my opinion, and I really hope I haven't offended anyone with it. ; We've all seen what happens when I get going on a topic, aheh.

And no one is judging you for it. Just agreeing or disagreeing.

PS. Poor you. Hope your daddy gets better soon.

Modifié par Chewin3, 11 août 2011 - 03:22 .

[Obsydian]

^pretty much that.

also *hugs* hope things get better.

[Sialater]

BubbleSauce wrote...

Wow skits, and I thought I was a cynical bastard!  

In all seriousness though, I agree with you entirely, you articulated your point far better than I did.

*High Five* or *Fist Bump* or whatever the hell kids do these days...

Both you and Skits voiced my opinions perfectly.  Thanks for doing the hard work. 

[Lady Olivia]

@Bubble

If I remeber correctly, the fact that the innocents died was used as an excuse to keep anderson out of the spectres, he said that Andersons careless actions forced him to blow the refinary, and pinned it one anderson

Yes, he used the refinery incident to spoil Anderson's candidacy - I don't dispute that. This is what I dispute:

in reality, he was not at all forced to blow it, he just did it to have an excuse to keep Anderson out of the spectres

This just isn't true. Saren did not blow the refinery because of Anderson. He blew it up because that's his way of doing things. He's a ruthless son-of-a-****, that was never in question. But to persuade me that his hatred for humanity was what made him do anything beyond... well, hating humans, you'll have to do a lot better than "if I remember correctly."

Bare in mind that my idea of the reapers being able to indoctrinate saren by tricking him into beleiving he would be striking against humanity in purely speculatory on my part, as for Camala, I'm nearly certain that that was just to keep anderson out of the spectres, I don't know I'll have to check the wiki on the one.

Yes, please do. Better yet, check the book directly.

You know how I admitted that I'm growing rainbows about Saren and Nihlus? Well, I'd be grateful if you took a similar step back and considered the possibility that his hatred for humans was not at all the main driving force behind all his actions. You're reading too much into it just the way I'm reading too much into other things.

I mean even if you don't think he's evil, can you at least admit that he's not a nice guy? I mean, would you like to have a beer with saren?

Of course he's not a nice guy. Like I said, he's a ruthless son-of-a-****, the ultimate renegade. And yes, I'd be honored to have a beer with him; but that, that's entirely personal, so please don't take it as a serious contribution to my argument.

A hero?! You can't just have one noble redemption act and become a hero!

That one act says volumes about his readiness to sacrifice anything for the greater good. It is not the act that makes him a hero, it's what motivates the act.

I am sorry if this upsets you. (Does it?) It isn't my intention, but as long as you're willing to debate, I'll keep defending my point of view. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't believe you've really put much thought into what might have driven Saren - you've decided it's his hatred for humans, and so you (understandably) hate him for it. All I'm asking you to do is to question this assumption for a moment; if you do, you'll find that my views are as well-founded as are yours.

-----------

@Skits

I have a lot to say in response to your post, and much of it you probably won't like. But... should I? I'm kind of reluctant to enter an argument with you after what you said about your dad. My heart goes to you. Hope it's nothing serious?

-----------

@Chewin

I as well can't see Saren as a hero. Saren isn't like Loghain. Their goals where pretty much the same yes, but Loghain has limits . . . Saren doesn't.

Interesting. Let me make a parallel, for those who haven't played Dragon Age, and then you can try to persuade me in the validity of your conclusion.

* Loghain hates orlesians.
* Saren hates humans.

* Loghain and the Warden have a common enemy: the darkspawn.
* Saren and Shepard have a common enemy: the reapers.

* Loghain betrays his own people and lets his King die. The death of the King throws the land (Loghain's land!) into complete chaos and civil war, in which many more of his people die. Not a single orlesian even comes into the equation. Furthermore, he plots with Uldred to overtake the Mages Tower, which results in a catastrophe; he employs a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon, the only person who can stand in his way to the throne; he trades in elven slaves to fund the civil war; and allows Howe to torture and murder people unto the destruction of an entire line of nobility.
* Saren kills many humans, Nihlus, and effectively, Benezia as well; he gives Shiala to the Thorian. (What else? Somehow this seems incomplete.) These particular actions have no repercussions to the stability of the Council Space, and certainly don't put his people in any kind of danger. He funds the research to bring back the Rachni and finds the cure for the Krogan genophage. (Brilliant much?) These have the potential to wreck havoc in the Galaxy, but Shepard puts a stop to them so we can't say.

* Loghain indirectly helps the darkspawn by thwarting the efforts of the Warden. He effectively seeks to eradicate the only people who can stop the Blight. To put this into perspective, the ME equivalent would be, there's a known way to repel or defeat the reapers, and Saren seeks to destroy it. (How's that for having limits?) Admittedly, Loghain does this mostly out of ignorance.
* Saren directly helps the reapers. In my interpretation, he does this because he believes it's the only way to save the Galaxy. In your interpretation, he does it... why exactly? To kill more humans? It's not impossible, but I just don't buy it, for being too one-dimensional, obvious and petty.

So, the only item where Saren's limits stretch further, is actually working for the enemy. But for me, Loghain's betrayal is way, way more abysmal; not in scope, but in whom it hurts, and what it harms.

And saying that he did it for the greater good is like saying a crazy person is not crazy, when he obviously is. I mean look at Saren, does he look human (turian?) to you? Cut of the fringe and you have a talking zombie. A sexy talking zombie, but you get the point!

Sorry. I just can't take this sort of argument seriously. I sincerely hope it wasn't meant that way.

-----------

@Obsy

Thank you. Your words shoot right for the heart, you know? <3 

(Edited for typos.)

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 12 août 2011 - 06:43 .

[Obsydian]

@olivia. *hugs* and i support everything you just said. i agree with you and you just said in many many words, what i would love to have said. you're brilliant. lol.

[Skits]

@Bubble: Hehehe, my cynicism knows no bounds. And I do believe around here it's a turian bro-fist, yeh? *turian bro-fist!*

@Chewin: Thanks! Dad's okay, just got home today. He'll be in the wheelchair/on crutches for a while, just a broken leg and seven broken ribs (punctured a lung, but only minorly, already taken care of), but other than that, nothing serious. Which mum and I are incredibly grateful for.

@Sia: Glad you agree! XD And that we could do all the hard work for you.

@Lady Olivia: Go for it! I don't think we're arguing, it's more just a friendly debate and sharing of opinions. And I'm always interested in seeing other peoples' opinions, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I take nothing said here personally, because I think we're all mature enough here to not go around insulting people or their views directly, so it's all good. Thank you for the concern too. Dad's okay, as I replied to Chewin, hehe.

I'd reply to what's already been said, but I gotta run off to a concept art demonstration, so I'll wait to see what y'have to say.

[Lady Olivia]

Skits wrote...

What happens if you don't convince him to off himself? He fights you. He doesn't really even ATTEMPT to fight Sovereign or the indoctrination. Not everyone is going to have the paragon/renegade to convince him, or is even going to bother trying. Is he still a hero then? Hahaha hell no.

I'll repeat what I've already told Bubble. The act of suicide is one moment, one action. I claim that this action only mirrors his courage; it is not required to prove his courage. Nothing about my views changes if he doesn't kill himself. The only thing that depends on this single act is whether he got to taste freedom for one last time, and perhaps feel remorse, or not.

But heroism? No. Courage? Ha. If anything, by shooting himself he's taking the easy way out. "I don't think I can fight back, so I'm not even going to try." That was pretty much Saren's entire reasoning for working with Sovereign in the first place. "We can't fight them, so why even bother trying! Submit and maybe they'll let you live as some augmented techno-organic nightmare!" Now, to be fair, I don't know if Saren thought that himself, or if it only came about through Sovereign's indoctrination, but he didn't even TRY to fight it.

You said it all yourself: we can't know what exactly he was thinking. In that, your speculation is as good as mine. Yes, this is possible. No, I don't believe it for a second.

Does Saren really strike you as the type who gives up easily? Everything about him, from the Codex entries, to the story in Evolution, to the way he was depicted in the game, paints him as an incredible man, and certainly not someone who'd look for an easy way out of any situation. He became a Spectre at 20, for Spirits' sake. That kind of achievement, especially in turian society, should tell you all there is to say about his aptitude and ambition, which is why it features so prominently in the Codex. People who lack courage and look for easy solutions don't get to climb so high (again, especially in turian society). Not to mention that there is nothing in the game to suggest that he was depressed or hopeless or that he ever had the tendency to surrender in the face of any challenge.

I'll admit to many things about Saren; that he was a psychopath; that he was a xenophobe; I could even concede to him being "evil" - but I won't concede that he was a coward, and even less, that his suicide was anything other but a selfless sacrifice.

Saren doesn't even pretend to show any grief at Nihlus' death during his "trial" at the Presidium Tower - he's just pissed off that they're wasting his time.

I wonder... have you read Evolution? It tells of how Saren's hand was forced into killing his own brother. In this comic, every effort was made to show that Saren genuinely cared about his brother so that his irrational hatred for humans would have a deep emotional grounding. Now consider the tone of his last words to Desolas. They do not come from a man who knows how or is willing to express his emotions.

Why do I bring this up? As support for the claim that we can't know how Saren really felt about Nihlus because he's not the type to reveal his feelings.

So in this too, your speculation on whether he grieved for Nihlus or didn't give a damn is exactly as good as mine.

Hell, it's entirely possible Sovereign encouraged Saren in his idea to kill himself so Sovereign could take over his corpse. "It's a miracle that he had the willpower to do it", you say. It's entirely possible he didn't. Saren had pretty much outlived his usefulness by then, since he was starting to fight against the indoctrination and Sovereign was now at the Citadel. All Sovereign needed at that point was something to take care of Shepard and co. - zombie-terminator-Saren kgo!

Now, this sort of guessing is no more based on canon materials than the guessing about intimacy between Saren and Nihlus. It's a matter of imagination and taste and as such, I don't think we should discuss it. It's your "rainbow" so to say; only yours is all in shades of gray. 

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 12 août 2011 - 07:38 .

[BubbleSauce]

I'm going to make an edit to this post later or maybe I'll make a new one tomorrow, I recently found out that my grand father died of pneumonia. I saw my dad again recently, and you know the way everyone has at least one person in there life who blames themselves for absolutely everything? Yeah, next time you see that person, slap them across the face, because 99.9% of the time, they don't deserve what they're putting themselves through.

Now I'm not the kind of person who goes on the internet to whine about how sh*t their life is but this story does have a point, I picked up revelation at a book store to read on the way down to Belfast to see the wake (I frigging dead bodies), it's a 3 hour drive and I finished the book.

So I just wanted to apologize to Lady Olivia, your right, he didn't blow the facility to keep Anderson out of the spectres... he blew the facility because he's a MASSIVE d*ck!

In all seriousness though, you were right and I was wrong and I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions.

[Lady Olivia]

BubbleSauce wrote...

I'm going to make an edit to this post later or maybe I'll make a new one tomorrow, I recently found out that my grand father died of pneumonia. I saw my dad again recently, and you know the way everyone has at least one person in there life who blames themselves for absolutely everything? Yeah, next time you see that person, slap them across the face, because 99.9% of the time, they don't deserve what they're putting themselves through.

Oh dear. Bubble, I am so sorry to hear that.

Now I'm not the kind of person who goes on the internet to whine about how sh*t their life is but this story does have a point, I picked up revelation at a book store to read on the way down to Belfast to see the wake (I frigging dead bodies), it's a 3 hour drive and I finished the book.

So I just wanted to apologize to Lady Olivia, your right, he didn't blow the facility to keep Anderson out of the spectres... he blew the facility because he's a MASSIVE d*ck!

In all seriousness though, you were right and I was wrong and I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions.

Please, don't apologize. You've done absolutely nothing wrong.



I wish... is there... anything we can do for you? To make you feel better? Can't speak for the others, but I'd take any request from you right now.

[Obsydian]

@Bubble *biggest hugs ever* i wish i had words.

[dannybates]

Damn Shepard is lucky woman <:I



001-JeSter-100

Modifié par dannybates, 12 août 2011 - 05:56 .

[Chewin]

So first Skits' father and know Bubble's grandpa? This is just wrong! Hugs and bro fists to ya Bubble and to your family.

@Lady Olivia Quite busy right now, but you'll have my opinion tomorrow.

Modifié par Chewin3, 12 août 2011 - 08:58 .