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[Brownfinger]

I love this thread. Meken's stuff in particular is just outstanding. Can't believe I had not put them on "watch" sooner.

[Edit: Gah! TotP. I will comply.]

Modifié par Brownfinger, 12 août 2011 - 09:07 .

[ArcanaLegacy]

*gets dragged into thread by Chewin*

i see alot of huge posts, and with me being somewhat sick - i can hardly even keep focus >.< I see words like indoctrination, and alot on Saren stand out. *tries to keep brain composed*

ugh....why did i have to feel "blah" when another discussion gets triggered.

edit: wait---what!? Oh my goodness Bubble Im so sorry that you got that news :,( *gives you huge hug* This must be very hard for you. You've got our support buddy.

Modifié par ArcanaLegacy, 12 août 2011 - 09:08 .

[FrostCub]

Darn, I show up and the big discussion has already finished. And general sadness for people all-round Really sorry for you Bubble, I hope you get through this okay.
Also, unlucky on the sickness Arcana. How's your hand doing by the way? Feel free to answer when you feel less "blah"

[Lady Olivia]

I hope nobody will mind if I use this sudden surge of interest in Saren and Saren/Nihlus to recommend some of my dearest and most favorite Saren fanfics.

Just for the record, everything listed below is absolutely, 100% smut-free. It's not a good/bad thing, just a thing.

Also, none of these are mine. (I wish!) Not that I'm above advertising my own writing, but since most of these stories are anonymous memes, I wanted to make this clear.

-------

First and foremost, there's Marked, by anonymous, from mass kink meme. This, my friends, is such a beautiful, heart-warming and heart-breaking story that I can honestly say I'm yet to read a better fic. It's about Saren's childhood; it's very gentle and runs deep, so deep. Warmest recommendations to everybody, Saren's fans or otherwise. But if you love Saren as much as I do, or want some insight into why I do, this is the ultimate must read.

Next would be Vertigo, also from the meme. Same author? I wish I could tell. This one takes place some time after Nihlus became a Spectre and it's very subtle. Probably the best characterization of both Nihlus and [a grown up] Saren out there. Perfect.

One of my old favorites: Supernova. I already wrote many words of praise for this one. An incredible fic, with lots of humor and an unparalleled emotional build-up. Nihlus/FemShep, and what a great FemShep it is! If you like Nihlus, you have to read this.

The Withering, another meme, is about an unlikely couple: Saren/Liara. It's an amazing story, though it gets somewhat opaque near the end. Saren as a gentleman, and a fantastic, youthful Liara, very true to her ME persona. A pleasure to read and re-read.

Recently, there's been a steady inflow of very short, slice-of-life Saren/Nihlus fics on the meme, presumably all by a single author, the "Misfire Anon." They are all, without exception, wonderful reads; sometimes cryptic, sometimes dark, but mostly humorous. Please don't be intimidated by the length of the list, none of these is longer than half a page:

Dx
This is really well written so far
That would break the laws of physics
I said GOOD DAY, sir!
How did that even fit?
It begs to be filled
Vat of hair gel

-------

One last thing. Dear authors of any of the stories mentioned above, in case you're posting or lurking here, I just want you to know that your writing is a constant source of awe and inspiration. That is all. <3

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 13 août 2011 - 07:27 .

[ArcanaLegacy]

ok, trying to get my head together again, I've somehow managed to read thru the last page of awesome. So imma TRY to contribute to this discussion even if my head is spinning. and sry if i do any typos. Headache + puppy on my lap makes things difficult XP

BubbleSauce wrote...
Oh, don't get me wrong, I like the idea, there's a lot of great fanfic out there that portrays the Saren and Nihlus' relationship very well, but in terms of how it's portrayed in the game, saren just shoots him, there is no change in his expression, no change in tone, and no indication that he feels what he is about to do is wrong. And even what he says before he does it:

"Don't worry... I've got it all under control"

Now, I'm sorry, but there is an undeniable sense of confidence there, he sounds like a bond villain for god's sake. Believe me, I love the idea that fans have created, but that's really all that it is, an idea. There is really nothing in the game that would even so much as suggest that Saren showed remorse over killing Nihlus. 

This is how i would sum up how I felt about that scene. The tone and just the way it plays out - Saren doesnt feel anything. No regret, remorse, a hint of saddness whatsoever for killing Nihlus. That pat on the shoulder, saying those particular words - i say it was obviously a way to get Nihlus to drop his guard and play the whole "Im on your side" card then BAM. Its more trickery than what some fans would say that Saren showcased some hestiation. I didnt see it.

BubbleSauce wrote...

Lady Olivia wrote...
I am saddened to hear that. But wouldn't a xenophobe be a person who hates all aliens, everyone not of their own species? Saren only hates humans. I know it's a thin line, but there's a line. I think.

It's a thin line indeed, by defininition, a xenophobe is "a persone who fears or hates foreigners, strange customs, ect." He grew up around salarians and asari therefore it's understandable that he would accept that they are a sentient species of equal rights, humanity came in late, killed his brother, blah blah blah, we all know the story. Xenophobia is a borad term but what I meant to say was that he was exibiting it towards humanity specifically.

In regard to your other comments, If I remeber correctly, the fact that the innocents died was used as an excuse to keep anderson out of the spectres, he said that Andersons careless actions forced him to blow the refinary, and pinned it one anderson, in reality, he was not at all forced to blow it, he just did it to have an excuse to keep Anderson out of the spectres.

I would consider Saren just racist. Like Racist Turian on the citadel. Ash would be more an example as a xenophobe since she doesnt like most of ALL aliens [though they grow on her by then end of ME1]. We can all agree Saren was racist against humanity. Thats a simple fact. 

As for what happened on that mission with Anderson - Im with Olivia on the reasoning. Saren did in fact blow up that refinery but as a means to get his objection done no matter what the costs. Saren is merciless and likes to  eliminate any possible obstacle out of his way. Also if he sees an "easier alternative" or some kind of loose end that he can "cut" - he's going to take it. He'd end up blowing up that refinery regardless, but since there were humans in that refinery it gave him all the more motivation to blow it up. Pinning the blame on Anderson and diminishing his chances of becoming a spectre was like an added bonus for his feeling of a "mission accomplished". He completed his mission, killed many of a species he hates and destroyed any chance of anderson [also a human] becoming a spectre - Saren mustve been happy.

Chewin wrote....

Skits wrote...
But heroism? No. Courage? Ha. If anything, by shooting himself he's taking the easy way out. "I don't
think I can fight back, so I'm not even going to try." That was pretty much Saren's entire reasoning for working with Sovereign in the first place. "We can't fight them, so why even bother trying! Submit and maybe
they'll let you live as some augmented techno-organic nightmare!" Now, to be fair, I don't know if Saren thought that himself, or if it only came about through Sovereign's indoctrination, but he didn't even TRY to
fight it.

Here I have to disagree. Yes, I think he still in the end standed by his idea that they could fight the reapers, but when my Shepard tried to convince him, I think he saw a glimps of hope, but he knew he couldn't do anything about it, not anymore. So he left it all up to Shepard. He didn't do it b/c of lazyness, but there was no other way for him.

See ok that part with Saren can be a head spinner. Its like Saren can be taken in 2 differ directions. You hate him, and/or feel sorry for him one way or another.
If you dont talk Saren down - yes, he fights you head on. Pure villainesque. Even the build up is horrid because it seems he still doesnt feel much of anything. On the contrary - he DOES somehow feel proud. He keeps spouting out how the Reapers are all powerful, and how he's transcended to becoming some advanced form of life, how its no use - etc etc. He doesnt fight the fact he's associated with the Reapers or  the fact they have practically indoctrinated him. He's actually embracing the transformation and the reaper threat. Supporting it even. Thats where the hate can start rolling in again, because  HEY! Villain is trying to intimidate you! Why wouldnt you feel some sort of disdain towards someone who's accepting your enemy as this all powerful being that we should be following when, even seeing what this being has done to its followers? That part is sickening. Both Saren and Sovereign.

Ok - on the other hand - [the other direction i referred too]. Agreed on him shooting himself as a means to end it for him with "no other way for him." Clearly [IF charmed, or talked down in some way], Saren can see theres hope against the reapers. But with all that he's done...heck - and what he's HAS become, he saw it was too late for him to make some sort of change. Shooting himself proved willpower but also in a way stopped allowing himself to continue to help the reapers in any sort of way. Also I guess maybe think shooting himself as a means to take responsibility for the horrible things he's done. His words and tone portrayed that. He did also leave it to Shepard to put an end to all this since he obviously cant anymore. Thats the one tragic thing about Saren.

Chewin wrote...
I mean look at Saren, does he look human (turian?) to you? Cut of the fringe and you have a talking zombie. A sexy talking zombie, but you get the point!

You just made me feel so much better

Now after this GIANT mountain I know for a fact I mustve formed, I'll say this: I dont HATE Saren. He's actually one of my fav villains because of the tragic spin, and the fact he is quite formidable. He's an intimidating ruthless fighter and manipulator. For that I applaud him. I love to dislike him because...well.....i dont like villains. Then again thats the point XP I love Saren as a character of the mass effect lore, but as a person - Pass.  I do wish there was more FF's and art on him though. He is quite a striking character.

Now I fear pressing the "Submit" button to see this mountain come to life.....

edit: Spirtis......Wow Thats some mountain

Modifié par ArcanaLegacy, 12 août 2011 - 10:36 .

[FrostCub]

 That's a really nice little list you've given us. And even if you didn't link it I hope you won't mind if I link your fic, Color. I think it definitely deserves a read from anyone that's a fan of Saren/Nihlus or those just looking for more turians 

Edit: Gah! Your ill and you can post a mountain of a post like that?! I honestly fear starting a discussion when your back to full health just for the pure amount of detail we enevitably would have to get through. Definitely not a bad thing though :happy: I'd like to say something on this topic but everything I've thought of has already been said.

Modifié par FrostCub, 12 août 2011 - 10:38 .

[ArcanaLegacy]

FrostCub wrote...

Darn, I show up and the big discussion has already finished. And general sadness for people all-round Really sorry for you Bubble, I hope you get through this okay.
Also, unlucky on the sickness Arcana. How's your hand doing by the way? Feel free to answer when you feel less "blah"

Well....i retriggered the discussion....so you can take part! XP I like to toss in my 2 billion credits to a discussion.

And aw that whole thing with my arm is WAAAAY passed now Its been healed so yay! I've just been overworked and life kinda took a toll recently. I think ive just overexerted myself, making me suddenly crash on my bed often w/o realizing it and headaches come and go these pass 2 days. Im one of those people who doesnt know when to stop XD I keep working and helping people out w/o any regards to myself. Im always moving or doing something. I have the weekend off now [hence my return to BSN] and im kinda trying to take it easy.  

@Olivia : OoOoOoOoOoOo FFs! ^___^

edit:

FrostCub wrote...
Edit: Gah! Your ill and you can post a mountain of a post like that?! I honestly fear starting a discussion when your back to full health just for the pure amount of detail we enevitably would have to get through. Definitely not a bad thing though I'd like to say something on this topic but everything I've thought of has already been said.

SAY IT ANYWAYS!
And eh yea - even not @100%, i can somehow get turian speak out of my brain.  I took me about 30-40mins to get that together whereas it usually takes me about 5-10mins to compose a long post. Idk what i even wrote in that mess. Just let my fingers and thoughts get the better of me. screw re-reading for clarity XP
Proof reading be damned at this moment. 
 @ the bold - and wow. I cant help but laugh how ppl find me somehow "intimidating" in a good way when Im at 100% for a dicussion XD

Modifié par ArcanaLegacy, 12 août 2011 - 10:51 .

[FrostCub]

Heh, you seem to me like someone that should blog. Don't know why though. Probably just the ludicrous amounts of depth you put into expressing your opinion With regards to being the kind of person that helps everyone, you really need to take care of yourself. My best friend sounds exactly like you and he eventually resorted to self-harm to cope with everyone else's problems on top of his own. I'm not saying that it will happen to you since I don't know you personally but I don't like to see good people go down that kind of path.

Edit: Whoops, sorry for the block of text there. Only happens on things I have a strong opinion on   And when I said I fear you at 100% is because i know that it means a lot of reading for that day and if I get too involved in a discussion I may forget to do other things 

Modifié par FrostCub, 12 août 2011 - 10:58 .

[ArcanaLegacy]

Funny you should say that because I actually used to blog quite alot back when I used to be a Moderator for Namco Bandai. I dont blog often, but only when a particular topic comes up that I need to express my opinion on XP I usually take a neutral approach to most dicussions. Facts & quotes are my friends

And aww dont wry bout me sweetie. I tend to know when my body is telling me to take a brake. I listen. Ironically it doesnt say anything till days later XD I could be doing something like building something, and not feel pain til a day later. Which I take as a "cue" to chill.

This page needs more pics!
HA! "Being a Garrus Fangirl". This is SOOOOOOOOO true! [except id have a smile on my smile X3]

[honestly i hate bieber and i dont like that twilight guy. Whatever his name is....*hasnt seen any twlight movie*]

Dawwwwwww

turians dont blush.......But still downright adorable.

Modifié par ArcanaLegacy, 13 août 2011 - 01:28 .

[kglaser]

Hahaha!! XD I love her expression in the Garrus one, like "hey, what the heck" XD

and Robert Pattinson =  blech, I think I said that yesterday XP

Modifié par kglaser, 13 août 2011 - 01:27 .

[Skits]

Okay, I'm gonna need Notepad again for this post. XD Sorry about the delay replying - got distracted by Warhammer 40k stuff when I got home last night. Again, everything I say here is merely my opinion/point of view. XD Anyway, onwards!

I'll repeat what I've already told Bubble. The act of suicide is one moment, one action. I claim that this action only mirrors his courage; it is not required to prove his courage. Nothing about my views changes if he doesn't kill himself. The only thing that depends on this single act is whether he got to taste freedom for one last time, and perhaps feel remorse, or not.

I honestly don't see anything that Saren's done as being particularly courageous. Yes, he's driven, he's ambitious, he's highly skilled, he became a Spectre at an early age, he's damn good at what he does... but what is so courageous about doing what you're good at? If nothing else, doing what you excel at is merely just plain sensible. Especially in turian society, where you're expected to focus on what you're good at, for the betterment of turian society in general. He may not have been a coward, but I don't see him as being especially brave, either.

I'll admit to many things about Saren; that he was a psychopath; that he was a xenophobe; I could even concede to him being "evil" - but I won't concede that he was a coward, and even less, that his suicide was anything other but a selfless sacrifice.

Again, this is just my own viewpoint. But to me, suicide is NEVER brave, or courageous, or heroic, or selfless. Ever. If anything, it's just plain selfish. Now I admit that my opinion on this is most likely coloured by my own experiences - I had a friend who committed suicide several years ago. Seeing and experiencing the effect that had on the people around him, and is STILL affecting those who were close to him... well, it just really gets my hackles up to see suicide being called "heroic" or whatever. Again, to me, it's nothing but a selfish act by someone who can't face their own problems and doesn't care enough about the affect their death will have on those around them.

How, exactly, did Saren killing himself HELP anything? It wouldn't have slowed Sovereign down any because he was already at the Citadel. It didn't help Shepard in the fight against Sovereign. Even if Saren hadn't been raised as zombie-terminator-Saren, his death still didn't HELP Shepard in any way, shape or form. If anything, it hindered Shepard, because afterwards nobody believed Shepard about the Reaper threat, because Shep had no proof.

Now, if Saren hadn't killed himself, but had instead turned himself in, allowed himself to be captured and held, and then told Shepard, the Council, the Alliance, C-Sec, whoever, everything he knew about Sovereign, the Reapers and the Geth, THAT would have actually been potentially helpful. And, to me, a lot more courageous and selfless than merely shooting himself in the head. If he had the strength of will to fight off the indoctrination long enough to see the hope that Shepard offered, then he should have had the strength and courage to keep fighting. You said it yourself, Olivia - Saren doesn't strike me as the type to give up easily. But he DID. In my opinion, him shooting himself is him giving up. There's nothing heroic about that, and does absolutely nothing to redeem himself. I admit it's tragic, yes, that Saren felt he couldn't do anything more, but tragic does not equal heroic.

If Shepard had managed to convince Saren to off himself on Virmire, then that at least would've been somewhat more useful. If Saren had killed himself there, he never would've made it to Ilos, and Sovereign wouldn't have made it to the Citadel as quickly. It still wouldn't have been particularly brave or heroic, and still wouldn't have redeemed him for all the other crap he did, but at least it would've slowed down Sovereign long enough for Shepard to get ahead of it, and prevented all the deaths that happened during the Battle of the Citadel.

As for Evolution, yes, I have read it, and I didn't particularly like Saren in that either. Then again, to be fair, I didn't much like ANY of the characters in that, but eh. XD I admit, having to kill his own brother was hard on Saren, but it was the sensible thing to do. Hell, it was the turian thing to do. Doing his duty to protect his race, sacrificing for the greater good. As for Saren's last words to Desolace, I don't see them as particularly un-emotional. He says it himself - "I will mourn for you. And I will avenge you." It's hard to tell emotional tone in a comic, which is a shame, but to me, those words sound absolutely laden with emotion. I still believe that Saren didn't show any sadness, remorse or regret during/after killing Nihlus because he just didn't feel anything like that. Saren also had no problem expressing his rage when he found out that Shepard had accessed the Prothean artifact. (Which was about the one scene I actually liked Saren - because that scene was HILARIOUS. "Argh! Rargh! Rawr!" Bahahaha.) So saying that Saren was a stoic guy who had trouble expressing his feelings doesn't convince me. Again though, that's just my personal interpretation, and doesn't lend any more or less credence to any of our speculation. XD

Now, this sort of guessing is no more based on canon materials than the guessing about intimacy between Saren and Nihlus. It's a matter of imagination and taste and as such, I don't think we should discuss it. It's your "rainbow" so to say; only yours is all in shades of gray.

Grey to you, perhaps. Not so grey to me. But again, personal taste, interpretation, etc. Though I still don't see anything in the game to actually support Saren/Nihlus. Unless I've missed something somewhere (which is entirely possible, please correct me if I'm wrong), we don't even see anything about them getting along well during Nihlus' training. Yes, Saren was Nihlus' mentor. That doesn't necessarily mean they enjoyed it or each other's company. Of course, it swings the other way too - there's nothing to say they didn't enjoy it. So if people want to believe that, I got no problem with it. I just don't see it at all myself.

Of course, if we all interpreted everything exactly the same way and all believed exactly the same thing, this'd be an incredibly boring thread. I really do enjoy expressing my opinions and the reasoning behind them, and seeing others do the same even if they believe something entirely the opposite. It just goes to show how well Mass Effect is made, that it can provoke such entirely opposing viewpoints from exactly the same material.

@Bubble: Ack. D: My condolences for your loss, and I hope things improve for you. *hugs*

@Arcana: Get better soon! Being sick sucks. D: Good to see you and your mountain though! I agree more or less with most of what you said there.

And I should stop here before this wall-o-text crushes the board in its massive shadow. XD

[Obsydian]

what sort of 40k stuff distracted you, skits? just outta curiousity? cause I know i been working like crazy on my 'Ard Boyz list.

[Skits]

My Thousand Sons army. XD I love the Sons liek whoa. Both story-wise (so tragic! They got screwed over by EVERYBODY EVER) and actually playing them, muahaha. I'd scribbled a little half-page story bit on the train yesterday morning, so had to type it up when I got home, and then I was trawling the 'net for more Sons paint scheme ideas and inspiration and stuff.

The prob with a Sons army is that there's so few troop choices I can take if I want to keep it purely Thousand Sons, so atm my army's fairly vehicle-heavy, with only two troop choices. I just got a Vindicator and a Defiler that I'm currently painting up/assembling, and I already have a Rhino and Land Raider. I can fit the two tanks, the walker, the Rhino, my Chaos Sorceror (I haven't actually gotten to use him AS Ahriman yet ) and Daemon Prince, and the two squads of Thousand Sons into a 1500-point army, it's so rude. XD

Need to take newer photos of all my stuff though, haven't photo'd the second squad of Sons at all yet, and everything else has been touched up and stuff since I took those pics too.

... and I should stop now. Again. XD

[Enthalpy]

 Hi folks. Just wanted to add two credits to the conversation. This one apologises for rudeness of intrusion and shortness of preamble. Several things struck this one.

Skits wrote...
I honestly don't see anything that Saren's done as being particularly courageous. Yes, he's driven, he's ambitious, he's highly skilled, he became a Spectre at an early age, he's damn good at what he does... but what is so courageous about doing what you're good at? If nothing else, doing what you excel at is merely just plain sensible. Especially in turian society, where you're expected to focus on what you're good at, for the betterment of turian society in general. He may not have been a coward, but I don't see him as being especially brave, either. 

This is a general definition of courage: 
cour·age
noun /ˈkərij/  /ˈkə-rij/ The ability to do something that frightens one.
Let us take a detour and talk about Garrus. Garrus is a highly trained ex-C-Sec officer. He's had a galaxy of experience fighting all sorts of enemies with Commander Shepard, which reasonably speaking should not be allowed to go to waste. He is highly passionate about justice, and strongly disapproves of organised crime. Therefore, he decides to travel to Omega and make a difference in that crime-ridden asteroid by bringing down leaders of the three big mercenary groups there. He proves very capable. He is able to use his leadership skills and sniping expertise to counter the wrath of the three groups combined for some amount of time. The general consensus seems to be that he is a little rash, but definitely courageous.
My parallel has to do with Saren joining the Spectres. Now, one may think that these are completely unrelated; Garrus acted of his own volition, outside of the traditional bounds of the turian Hierarchy. However, we can see from Executor Pallin and Garrus' father that becoming a Spectre is in no way a completely acceptable option for a turian. Indeed, it appears to be a radical direction. Saren happens to possess the qualities that would make an effective Spectre, so he chooses this path. In a way, both of them chose a path suitable for their skill set, disregarding the opinions from society, electing instead to pursue their own ideas of how the world should be.
And the thread that ties them together? They must have know that they were going to die. Regardless of Garrus' initial temper and what he may have thought through idealistic lenses, it is plain to see that Omega is a dangerous place, and chances of living long while playing cat-and-mouse with mercenaries are not high. Saren, with 24 years, is the longest-serving turian member of the Spectres. Meaning that prior to him, the holder of the record died or retired (and somehow I don't see Spectres retiring) before that amount of time. In an age when the life expectancy is 150 years, this says something about the mortality rate of Spectres; namely, that they tend to be KIA (especially those known to a certain Commander Shepard).
The final step in this logic, then, is to assert that death is something to be feared. Is it? Can one truly escape one's own mortality without becoming something geth-like? I don't mean in the suddenness of battle, but in quiet moments to oneself, when one's own thoughts echo. (Excuse me. It is late and my language skillz are dropping). Personally, I think the fear is something we can't escape (read an article in Time about how this links to optimism. Quite interesting). And, if that condition is satisfied, then I can say that yes, Saren was brave indeed.

Again, this is just my own viewpoint. But to me, suicide is NEVER brave, or courageous, or heroic, or selfless. Ever. If anything, it's just plain selfish. Now I admit that my opinion on this is most likely coloured by my own experiences - I had a friend who committed suicide several years ago. Seeing and experiencing the effect that had on the people around him, and is STILL affecting those who were close to him... well, it just really gets my hackles up to see suicide being called "heroic" or whatever. Again, to me, it's nothing but a selfish act by someone who can't face their own problems and doesn't care enough about the affect their death will have on those around them. 

My condolences. And I can understand. I had a friend who tried. That is a perfectly valid viewpoint to take, and the act of taking it into these circumstances shows a wonderful consistency of character. You're right to think that. (And Spirits I'm afraid of insulting someone on my second post. I mean no disrespect!) I will, however, say that I distinguish between unwilling (this selfishness, this lack of consideration for others) and unable (Reaper mind control). Benezia was over a thousand years old, was indoctrinated for a shorter amount of time, was a powerful, wise biotic, and managed to keep her mind free for all of about two minutes. In that context, being able to pull the trigger on oneself (and to decide to do so in the first place, when killing that pesky human standing right there was at the top of Sovereign's to-do list) almost seems like a deus ex machina to me.

How, exactly, did Saren killing himself HELP anything? 

To metagame, this allowed Shepard to skip the first part of the boss fight. In all seriousness though, I don't think he was able to think it completely through. And, going back to my massive paragraphs near the top, this means that I don't consider this a courageous act. I think he did this because it was the only way, to him. (Aside from Sovereign's way, from which Shepard had dissuaded him.) There was something in the canon about honour suicides; perhaps it's ingrained in if-then fashion. There were good consequences and bad consequences. I will not speculate further about either, because I really don't know enough.

He says it himself - "I will mourn for you. And I will avenge you." It's hard to tell emotional tone in a comic, which is a shame, but to me, those words sound absolutely laden with emotion.

I think you're completely correct on this one. (And yes, I didn't like Evolution much either.) However, I'm going to be completely anal about it and say that this is proof of his troubles with expression. In the comic, these words are not shown in his conversation with Desolas, over the projector; he speaks them as Temple Palaven is bombed from orbit. He speaks them as he watches. At least, I assume this is so, from the orange hue on his face that seems to be a reflection of said bombardment. In other words, Desolas never heard those words. He heard Saren speak of his duty to Palaven, and how some secrets should stay buried, before the end came. Saren conveyes all that emotion to nothing but emptiness.
I think that spells major communication trouble. But maybe I'm reading too much into this. 
Saren/Nihlus is another can of Thresher Maws. Which I will leave untouched, for now.

Of course, if we all interpreted everything exactly the same way and all believed exactly the same thing, this'd be an incredibly boring thread. I really do enjoy expressing my opinions and the reasoning behind them, and seeing others do the same even if they believe something entirely the opposite. It just goes to show how well Mass Effect is made, that it can provoke such entirely opposing viewpoints from exactly the same material. 

Well said. Well said. *Applause*.
*Slinks back into shadows.*

Modifié par Enthalpy, 13 août 2011 - 05:37 .

[Lady Olivia]

@Arcana

This is how i would sum up how I felt about that scene. The tone and just the way it plays out - Saren doesnt feel anything. No regret, remorse, a hint of saddness whatsoever for killing Nihlus. That pat on the shoulder, saying those particular words - i say it was obviously a way to get Nihlus to drop his guard and play the whole "Im on your side" card then BAM. Its more trickery than what some fans would say that Saren showcased some hestiation. I didnt see it.

Sure. It sounded like that to me too. When I take a step back to the time I first played ME and all the impressions were fresh (and also before I became a Saren fangirl), this was the scene that unnerved me the most. I was appalled at how easily the lies slipped from his tongue, at how he dared call Nihlus "a friend."

Later, though, when I started analyzing these things, when I tried putting myself in Sarens's shoes, I found myself thinking: well, of course he'd act and sound like that. What else could he possibly do? Cave in and start crying? He's a tough-as-nails military operative with 25 years of field experience dealing with the worst scum of the Galaxy and with many, many, many kills behind him. Is it so unimaginable that he's be able to hide - perfectly hide - his guilt and remorse if there was any? Because, to show it, to show any gram of it beyond "he was a fellow Spectre, and a friend" - would be to admit to the genocide at Eden Prime. It's as simple as this: we can't know what he was feeling, because he could (and in my view, absolutely would) have hidden it.

Shooting himself proved willpower but also in a way stopped allowing himself to continue to help the reapers in any sort of way. Also I guess maybe think shooting himself as a means to take responsibility for the horrible things he's done. His words and tone portrayed that.

This sums it up nicely, I think. I'll say more in my response to Skits.

-------

@Skits

I honestly don't see anything that Saren's done as being particularly courageous. Yes, he's driven, he's ambitious, he's highly skilled, he became a Spectre at an early age, he's damn good at what he does... but what is so courageous about doing what you're good at? If nothing else, doing what you excel at is merely just plain sensible. Especially in turian society, where you're expected to focus on what you're good at, for the betterment of turian society in general. He may not have been a coward, but I don't see him as being especially brave, either.

This... is good enough for me. You started with the claim that he was a coward and it seems I managed to persuade you that he wasn't. I'm content and won't insist further.

Related to what Enthalpy wrote about courage, I think you (Skits) are right in that the sort of courage needed for serving in the army (or the Spectres) and taking personal risks may be more of a standard than an exception in turian society.

Can we agree that Saren was no more, and no less brave than, say, Garrus?

(An interesting venue for some other discussion: if Garrus was allowed to become a Spectre at a very young age, before meeting Shepard and everything, how different would he be from [an unindoctrinated] Saren? Methinks, not much.)

But to me, suicide is NEVER brave, or courageous, or heroic, or selfless. Ever. If anything, it's just plain selfish. Now I admit that my opinion on this is most likely coloured by my own experiences - I had a friend who committed suicide several years ago. Seeing and experiencing the effect that had on the people around him, and is STILL affecting those who were close to him... well, it just really gets my hackles up to see suicide being called "heroic" or whatever. Again, to me, it's nothing but a selfish act by someone who can't face their own problems and doesn't care enough about the affect their death will have on those around them.

I am sorry to hear you had such a difficult experience. So did I, many years ago, and it wasn't a very close friend, but yes, I agree that, in "normal" circumstances, suicide is not a courageous and heroic act.

It becomes courageous and heroic when it's done to protect others. An example: squad leader covers an exploding mine with his body to protect his men. It's suicide alright. But of the sort that is very much courageous. In such circumstances, which luckily, have little to do with the sheltered lives most of us are living, suicide gets another name: sacrifice. And it is, beyond any doubt, entirely heroic. 

You said it yourself, Olivia - Saren doesn't strike me as the type to give up easily. But he DID. In my opinion, him shooting himself is him giving up. There's nothing heroic about that, and does absolutely nothing to redeem himself. I admit it's tragic, yes, that Saren felt he couldn't do anything more, but tragic does not equal heroic.

Your entire critique of Saren's suicide rests on the assumption that he was hopeless, depressed, that he could see no way out for himself. Would you, please, try to relax this assumption for a moment and consider this:

We know for a fact that Sovereign needed Saren to restore the control of the Citadel. This is the main thread behind the entire plot of ME: the Conduit, the beacons - everything was set up for this: for someone to manually return the controls to Sovereign. As soon as that is done, the invasion can begin. Imagine that; Arrival in full force, then and there. End of the world, much?

Saren was Sovereign's hand in this plan. Sovereign didn't send him there to kill Shepard; didn't revive/possess him to kill Shepard; Shepard was just an annoying obstacle. The primary goal was to restore the controls, and bring about the Arrival.

That, my friends, is why Saren shot himself. He had that one moment of freedom, one moment when his mind was his own. And he used it to sever Sovereign's hand. To stop the Reapers. To undo the things he'd done as Sovereign's puppet. To try and save the Galaxy. And that makes his suicide a sacrifice, a heroic sacrifice.

Now, if Saren hadn't killed himself, but had instead turned himself in, allowed himself to be captured and held, and then told Shepard, the Council, the Alliance, C-Sec, whoever, everything he knew about Sovereign, the Reapers and the Geth, THAT would have actually been potentially helpful. And, to me, a lot more courageous and selfless than merely shooting himself in the head. If he had the strength of will to fight off the indoctrination long enough to see the hope that Shepard offered, then he should have had the strength and courage to keep fighting.

You seem to think that when he'd broken away from control, had he not killed himself then, he'd have remained free of control. But that's not so. Not at all. Had he missed the chance, he'd have simply slipped back under Sovereign's reign. Perhaps only later, when Sovereign was gone, he might have helped by providing general information about the Reapers. Here's how that might have looked: Theseus (another favorite meme, exploring exactly this scenario). I don't see it as a... more courageous path. Just another path.

Though I still don't see anything in the game to actually support Saren/Nihlus. Unless I've missed something somewhere (which is entirely possible, please correct me if I'm wrong), we don't even see anything about them getting along well during Nihlus' training. Yes, Saren was Nihlus' mentor. That doesn't necessarily mean they enjoyed it or each other's company. Of course, it swings the other way too - there's nothing to say they didn't enjoy it. So if people want to believe that, I got no problem with it. I just don't see it at all myself.

Honestly, I'd rather avoid discussion about the possibility/probability of this pairing. I'm well aware that the idea is nearly indefensible, but I'm also fairly certain that the game doesn't provide enough material to prove the pairing is impossible. The only things we have on this are:

* Saren's statement, that Nihlus was a friend
* the hand on the shoulder when they met on Eden Prime
* Nihlus, so ready to relax and so trusting as to turn his back without a second thought
* the Codex, saying that Saren was impressed with the young soldier and that he befriended him.

To me, these speak more in favor of friendship and mutual respect than in favor of "butting heads" (which is a favorite trope in Saren/Nihlus fics). But yeah, let's agree to disagree. I prefer to leave it at that.

-------

@Enthalpy
Yay! An ally!  

Please forgive me, I won't reply to your post line-by-line. I agree with almost everything you wrote. The only exception is, obviously, what you said about the suicide not being a courageous act. But I already spoke too much about that. 

Please, stay in the light? At least for the length of these negotiations? I could do with some help. 

-------

@FrostCub

Thank you for the kind words.  <3

And please, do join the discussion. If you're not up for writing... errr... scary walls of text such as this one... won't you at least tell us what's your general attitude regarding this subject? 

(Edit: cut out some parts for brevity. lol)

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 13 août 2011 - 01:43 .

[Skits]

@FrostCub: the discussion is far from over, feel free to join in any time! The more the merrier.

As for the bigger posts - just dropping in to say I'll have to reply to them later, since I just got home from three hours of rollerblading and I'm wiped out, heh. It's also midnight here now, so sleep is awesome. And since it's Sunday, I intend to sleep in like crazy. XD So! Sleeping now, posting later.

[BubbleSauce]

Thanks everyone, you guys rock, but believe me, out of everyone in my family, I'm the last one who needs comforting, the last to days have been really tiring.

AAaAH, so much text, my head feels like I'm disobeying the reapers here! Knowing my luck, I'll wake up and there will be another page worth of it to reply to.

[Chewin]

@Lady Olivia Ok, this comes a little late, but it took me a long time to get this finished so hear I go.

Okay firstly -- if you paid attention to the story and the surroundings in DA:O and ever had Loghain in your party --you would have most of your questions answered already, but you obviously don't so I'll go and explain it to you in full detail.



[quote]Loghain betrays his own people and lets his King die.[/quote]

And there's a reason to why he did. Loghain was always fighting Orlais, and never considered the darkspawn attacks more then a very large raid. No way that would he risk the strength of his army, in a battle against an opponent that proved stronger then expected, when the real threat was an army of chevaliers at his doorstep. He was certain that inviting the forces of Orlais would result in another war, as fighting the darkspawn would weaken Fereldens forces, and by then the enemy would already be in the country – and he’d be back fighting for freedom again – thanks to the foolish king.

I’m not saying that the outcome was the best when Loghain chose to withdraw from Ostagar, but I do understand why he did so. It was, at best, a battle that would weaken him enough that he’d never be able to fend of the real threat: Orlais. And what use would defeating the darkspawn raid (as he never believed it to be a Blight) have if they would be conquered by the Orlesians again? So he retreated, and went on to expel the Orlesians before they crossed the border – securing his country from the real threat, at least in his mind. And as he must have expected that he might have to withdrawn, he had made preparations to ensure that the possible civil war would be as brief as possible – that way he could get back to the task of dealing with the darkspawn raid before they did too much damage.

And as Loghain said himself about Cailan's death, it was his own doing. Cailan was a naive king that wanted to play war and save the world just like in the old tales he had read of. This lead to him trusting too much on the Wardens which lead to his own death. Loghain even insisted that Cailan shouldn't be on the front lines with them, though he wouldn't listen. And the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day, Loghain knew how it would end for Cailan. Though IMO, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. 

Oh, and I might also add that Loghain once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom during Ostagar.

"So Loghain was prepared to ditch Cailan but didn't necessarily want to? What as he then hoping to accomplish?" you might ask me. I think Loghain was hoping that Cailan would see reason. He didn't expect him to, but was hoping he would.

And as for sacrifing the people at Ostagar, you do remember that most of them were Grey Wardens? And I hope you do know that he did not trust them, especially when most of the men were from Orlais. yeah, I don't really judge his decision b/c of his experiences with them in 'The Calling'. The book is about what led up to King Maric allowing the Wardens back in to Ferelden. So long story short, Maric goes off with some Wardens on a rescue mission without telling Loghain. In the meantime there is an attempt by Orlesians, in cooperation with the Architect to take over Ferelden's Circle Tower and eventually Ferelden I guess (I should explain, this wasn't the Orlesian government, it was the Orlesian First Enchanter of Ferelden's tower, some Orlesian troops, and a couple Wardens- the Architect had a plan to taint all humanity in order to stop the cycle of Blights). Loghain shows up with troops to repel this plot and rescue Maric. So he does have more reason than most to mistrust Wardens.

And as for sacrifing the "none wardens" during Ostagar, this (and little of why he didn't rescue Cailan) can mostly be explained in the party banter between him and Wynne:

[quote]Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.

Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!

Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.[/quote]




[quote]The death of the King throws the land (Loghain's land!) into complete chaos and civil war, in which many more of his people die.[/quote]

It's not like he returned to Denerim from Ostagar and said "Right, I shall now start a demoralizing and resource-sapping civil war as part of my evil plot of evilness, mwahahahaha." Actually his intention was to unite the country in its time of crisis, and to do it as quickly as possible, choosing his daughter as the most capable (and reigning) Queen and himself as the best man for the job of reorganizing the available resources for defense against the Darkspawn and, yes, the Orlesians. The civil war happened because (A) the Banns didn't take kindly to being ordered about by a commoner as though he were their commanding officer, ( he failed to recognize that the Banns weren't his soldiers and wouldn't just follow orders, nor respond favorably to being punished for insubordination, and © a couple of surviving Grey Wardens were roaming the country making incendiary pests of themselves and giving the already-discontented Banns another banner behind which to rally.

Again, you could debate the actual size of the Orlesian threat or the ill-considered manner in which Loghain chose to conduct himself, but to say "he started a civil war" would be an error.




[quote]Furthermore, he plots with Uldred to overtake the Mages Tower, which results in a catastrophe.[/quote]

So what? The only evidence we have that they sided together before the battle is the suspicions of the self-admittedly prejudiced Wynne. That is not evidence at all.

What we do know is that Loghain made an alliance with Uldred in hopes that he'd have Ferelden's best weapon at his side. Uldred first tried to peacefully convince the council to join Loghain, and then Wynne showed up. At that point she was rather convinced that Loghain betrayed the King at Ostagar. Unfortunately here we only have the testimony of the half-asleep Niall, who displayed the virtues of the Isolationist fraternity by ignoring the rest of the world. What he does seem to recall vaguely is that Uldred started making what he thought excuses for Loghain's actions, and only after Uldred unleashed an attack on the room did he wake up from his day-dreaming. We already know that Uldred was a vocal proponent of mage freedoms and given how many Blood Mages he had on his side, it's likely that he already had supporters waiting for his signal. The battle turned against Uldred and in a panic he summoned the pride demon . . .

. . . yet none of that involved Loghain. All we know is that Loghain made an alliance with Uldred to gain the support of the mages, before or after the battle is not known. It's pure conjecture to state for a fact that they made their alliance beforehand, and rather underhanded to use an assumption, Loghain's "evilry", as proof for it.




[quote]he employs a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon, the only person who can stand in his way to the throne.[/quote]

This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. And as you might know, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.

And you might be interested in a post by David Gaider himself.

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed too many tears over it.[/quote]




[quote]he trades in elven slaves to fund the civil war;[/quote]

This is a real crime that Loghain has committed. But there's a "good" reason to it.

If the orleasians or darkspawns should've ever attacked Denerim, the Alliange would have been utterly destroyed along with the elves, who would have had no weapons to defend themselves. This way Loghain "saves" their lives by sellling them as slaves away from Ferelden, and getting money to fund his army with weapons and armor. Kind of brilliant IMO.




[quote]and allows Howe to torture and murder people unto the destruction of an entire line of nobility[/quote]

Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval. He's the one to accuse, not Loghain.




[quote]Saren kills many humans, Nihlus, and effectively, Benezia as well; he gives Shiala to the Thorian. (What else? Somehow this seems incomplete.) These particular actions have no repercussions to the stability of the Council Space, and certainly don't put his people in any kind of danger. He funds the research to bring back the Rachni and finds the cure for the Krogan genophage. (Brilliant much?) These have the potential to wreck havoc in the Galaxy, but Shepard puts a stop to them so we can't say.[/quote]

And? You don't think he would kill turians, salarians and asari?

No doubt Loghain would have killed Maric if it was necessary, but he sure wouldn't do it as easily as saren. Oh, Saren might be a stronger person that Loghain? True, but that just proves of the limits they both have quite well.

As for the Krogan cure --brilliant yes -- but I rather die then end up as a mindless puppet and be controlled by someone.



[quote]Loghain indirectly helps the darkspawn by thwarting the efforts of the Warden. He effectively seeks to eradicate the only people who can stop the Blight.[/quote]

I addressed this already above. Loghain didn't believe there was a true blight, not at least after half way of the game, and it's then it was already too late to do anything about it.



[quote]To put this into perspective, the ME equivalent would be, there's a known way to repel or defeat the reapers, and Saren seeks to destroy it. (How's that for having limits?). Admittedly, Loghain does this mostly out of ignorance.[/quote]

What has this anything to do with limits?

I'm talking about limits as a person. Loghain knows when to say stop, but Saren would go even further. I'm talking about Saren being a more villainous person than Loghain.



[quote]Saren directly helps the reapers. In my interpretation, he does this because he believes it's the only way to save the Galaxy.[/quote]

And I agree with you here. If I've said otherwise, i must have explained wrong.




[quote]So, the only item where Saren's limits stretch further, is actually working for the enemy. But for me, Loghain's betrayal is way, way more abysmal; not in scope, but in whom it hurts, and what it harms.[/quote]

You serious? Okay sure, if that's what you believe.

And I addressed already above about Loghain's "betrayal". it's up to you if you still think what Loghain did was worse.

[quote]


[quote]And saying that he did it for the greater good is like saying a crazy person is not crazy, when he obviously is. I mean look at Saren, does he look human (turian?) to you? Cut of the fringe and you have a talking zombie. A sexy talking zombie, but you get the point![/quote]Sorry. I just can't take this sort of argument seriously. I sincerely hope it wasn't meant that way.[/quote]

That zombie thing was a joke, but it wasn't far from the truth.


There where still things about Loghain I left out so it wouldn't be too long to read, but I think this sums it up quite well.

Modifié par Chewin3, 13 août 2011 - 07:30 .

[Lady Olivia]

Must be fun for the onlookers to observe a debate between a Saren-fan and a Loghain-fan about who's more evil. 

Seriously, though, I regret starting this. You're right, I never had Loghain in my party and I admit that I've never considered his point of view in depth - just like you've never considered Saren's.

In reply to the few things you wrote that actually touch on his character, and that can be neatly summed up in:

You serious? Okay sure, if that's what you believe.

I can only say: yes, I am. And yes, we might be better off leaving it at that. 

(Edited for being a bit of a jerk.)

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 13 août 2011 - 10:32 .

[Skits]

@Enthalpy: Don't worry about insulting anyone. Please, continue to post! Though regarding those final panels of the Evolution comic, I think showing the explosion and Saren's face lit with orange along with those specific lines was more of an artistic choice, rather than being a precise display of the timing of things. Er. If that makes sense. I won't go into the rest of your post 'cause what I've got already is enough of a wall as it is. XD

Okay, finally, replying! Apologies for the delay, a combination of a massive hayfever attack, other distractions, and needing to replay certain bits of the game means it's taken me all day to write this. So! *cracks knuckles* Here goes. XD This'll probably be a bit all over the place, I'm having trouble keeping track of things. My brain is melting out my nose. x_x

This... is good enough for me. You started with the claim that he was a coward and it seems I managed to persuade you that he wasn't. I'm content and won't insist further.

I agree that Saren isn't naturally, and wasn't always a coward, and is (or was) at least as brave as Garrus. And I apologise for giving the impression that I thought he'd -always- been a coward, that wasn't my actual intent. Cowards don't become Spectres. XD BUT, I still think his actions in regards to Sovereign were at least a little cowardly. In my defense, I don't think I can be blamed for thinking that when the game itself states it. I shall now proceed to quote game dialogue that I replayed the Virmire and Citadel Tower fights specifically to get. XD

Virmire:
Saren: You've seen the vision from the beacons, Shepard. You, of all people, should understand what the Reapers are capable of. They cannot be stopped. Do not mire yourself in pointless revolt. Do not sacrifice everything for the sake of petty freedoms. The Protheans tried to fight, and they were utterly destroyed. Trillions dead. But what if they had bowed before the invaders? Would the Protheans still exist? Is submission not preferable to extinction?

Shepard: Do you really believe the Reapers will let us live?

Saren: Now you see why I never came forward with this to the Council. We organics are driven by emotion instead of logic. We will fight even when we know we cannot win. But if we work with the Reapers - if we make ourselves useful - think how many lives could be spared! Once I understood this, I joined Sovereign, though I was aware of the... dangers. I had hoped this facility could protect me.

Shepard: You're afraid Sovereign is influencing you. You're afraid he's controlling your thoughts.

Saren: I've studied the effects of indoctrination. The more control Sovereign exerts, the less capable the subject becomes. That is my saving grace. Sovereign needs me to find the Conduit. My mind is still my own... for now. But the transformation from ally to servant can be subtle. I will not let it happen to me.

Saren: The Conduit is the key to your destruction and my salvation. Sovereign needs my help to find it. That is the only reason I have not been indoctrinated.

Shepard: You're a coward! I'm not like you. I'd rather die fighting than live as a slave.

Saren: I'm not doing this for myself! Don't you see? Sovereign will succeed. It is inevitable. My way is the only way any of us will survive!

The part in red is just the Renegade choice of dialogue you can choose. So I'll also conceed that not everyone would have had access to that choice. But it doesn't change the fact that it's still there, and that Shepard can think that Saren's a coward. And since we, as the player, are playing AS Shepard, that most likely influenced my own views on Saren. Hard to argue with the game itself.

It becomes courageous and heroic when it's done to protect others. An example: squad leader covers an exploding mine with his body to protect his men. It's suicide alright. But of the sort that is very much courageous. In such circumstances, which luckily, have little to do with the sheltered lives most of us are living, suicide gets another name: sacrifice. And it is, beyond any doubt, entirely heroic.

I think there is a big difference between suicide and sacrifice. The squad leader protecting his men? Sacrifice, NOT suicide, because he's thinking of his men first - his intent isn't to kill himself, it's to protect his men. He'd probably be overjoyed if he somehow managed to survive after saving his men. And it wasn't his fault the mine was there in the first place. His death is just an unfortunate side effect of trying to protect his men. Suicide however, the intent IS to kill yourself, irregardless of any other outcomes of the action.

As for Saren, I fully believe his MAIN intent is to kill himself. Therefore, suicide. The REASONING behind his suicide is harder to work out - he doesn't state WHY he's doing it, he only apologises to Shepard before he shoots himself in the head. So we can't say for sure WHY he did it. It may well have been, as you said, to sever Sovereign's hand, to stop the Reapers, to undo the things he'd done. But I don't view that as sacrifice - I view that as trying to correct all the mistakes he's made. That's not heroic. That's just repentant, trying to redeem himself. Like Enthalpy said, turians have a history and culture of honour-suicides - an if-then situation. If you do Something Bad, then you kill yourself to regain honour or redeem yourself. As a turian, that's not courageous or heroic, that's expected.

Or, just as possibly, Saren's reasoning may have been entirely selfish - Saren said himself, "But the transformation from ally to servant can be subtle. I will not let it happen to me." He was obviously now Sovereign's servant rather than ally, and since Saren had said himself that he wouldn't let himself become a servant, he had to stop it the only way he thought he could. Yes, this is an assumption, but it's just as much an assumption as thinking Saren killed himself to save the galaxy. We don't know for sure WHY he shot himself, only that he did.

And none of this changes the fact that it's Saren's fault that Sovereign is at the Citadel in the first place. If Saren didn't have anything to do with Sovereign being at the Citadel, but could somehow stop Sovereign with his own death, THEN that would be a heroic sacrifice. As it is, there's nothing heroic about it. Saren's just paying the price for his bad judgement.

As an aside, I really didn't like how everyone in ME2 referred to going through the Omega Relay as the "suicide mission". That implies that they're going INTENDING to die. Even if that's not what's actually meant - I realise they're only calling it that because of the high chance of death. But the chance of death isn't the same as going with the intent to die. It might've been better to call it the "sacrifice mission". XD But that's just me being pedantic about wording. Anyway, back on topic.

Your entire critique of Saren's suicide rests on the assumption that he was hopeless, depressed, that he could see no way out for himself. Would you, please, try to relax this assumption for a moment and consider this:

Not just of his suicide - hell, even if he DOESN'T suicide - my critique is on Saren's ENTIRE ACTIONS in regards to Sovereign and the Reapers. And it's not even an assumption - at least, not the hopeless bit. The bits of Saren's dialogue that I've bolded show WHY I believe that Saren thought trying to fight the Reapers was hopeless. I never thought he was depressed (I don't think I ever said he was depressed, and if I gave that impression, I apologise, that wasn't my intent), but he sure as hell didn't see any OTHER way to survive. Resigned, I think would be a better word. Not ONCE, in his entire dealings with Sovereign, did he decide to fight. He gave in to what he thought was inevitable, he quit, pretty much right from the start. Shepard says as much, and Saren basically agrees with that in the Citadel fight.

Battle of the Citadel:
Saren: The Reapers can't be stopped. Not by the Protheans. Not by you. The cycle always continues.

Shepard: Sovereign hasn't won yet. I can stop it from taking control of the station! Step aside and the invasion will never happen!

Saren: We can't stop it! Not forever. You saw the visions. You saw what happened to the Protheans. The Reapers are too powerful.

Shepard: You gave up! You could have resisted. You could have fought! Instead, you surrendered. You quit.

Saren: Maybe you're right. Maybe there is still a chance for... uhn! The implants... Sovereign is too strong. I'm sorry. It's too late for me.

Again, this is my view being influenced by actual in-game dialogue.

If Shepard convinces him and Saren shoots himself, then, again, Saren gives up. He succumbs to the belief that "Sovereign is too strong" and surrenders to what he thinks is inevitable. There's nothing heroic about it.

You seem to think that when he'd broken away from control, had he not killed himself then, he'd have remained free of control.

I don't think that at all. I've read... whichever book it is with Grayson being Reaper-inated. I fully expect Saren to fall back under its control. But he could still fight it. Given how Saren's supposed to be so strong-willed, he could still try to win moments where it's himself and not the Reapers driving his body. He could've made up for not fighting earlier by fighting now. Even if he'd failed, at least he would have tried. I think that's my one of my main beefs with Saren in general - he never even tried.

Anyway, again, all my opinion, point of view, etc. etc.

And now to post and see how much of my formatting needs fixing. x_x

Sorry Bubble, looks like you've got another page to read. ¬_¬

[Lady Olivia]

Skits, thank you for quoting these bits of dialog. I can certainly see why you think the way you do, especially if you consider Shepard to be a reliable narrator. I... don't care for Shepard much. He/she is too much of a tabula rasa, and I never took their dialog options as objective indicators of "truth."

I'm afraid I'm all but spent. I've said all that I had, and nothing remains but reiterating my points. We can never see eye to eye on this subject, because to me, Saren's intentions to absolutely fight all the way, not for himself but for what he thought was the only way to save the Galaxy - are crystal clear and undoubtedly heroic. Your attitudes are well based, but I'm nowhere near being convinced, or even suspecting that mine are unbased. The game doesn't have enough material for the final judgment on who's "right" and obviously neither of us will compromise, so...

In all honesty, I never really expected to change anyone's opinion on this subject. I hope I at least succeeded in clarifying my own.

---------

For whom it may concern: Scars, a sequel to Color, is finished and anxiously awaiting reactions.

[Skits]

Given that Shepard is designed to be the player character for a game, y'can't really blame Shep for being a "blank slate". XD But yeah, I can understand not liking Shep much. What Shep does and says depends so much on what the -player- does, that it can be hard to like Shep as a character in and of him/herself.

I understand why you think of Saren the way you do. I just happen to totally disagree with it, hehe. Which is no slight on either of us. Both of us have, I think, strong basis for what we choose to believe in, and I do agree that we don't have enough material to make a definitive judgement either way.

And yeah, I didn't expect to change anyone's minds either. I always expected this to end up as us agreeing to disagree. XD It was fun having such an in-depth discussion though and seeing other viewpoints. Thank you very much for indulging me for so long, hehe.

[Chewin]

@Lady Olivia Well I thought it was fun. The argument I mean, and to try to convince you otherwise. And sorry for being a little rude, didn't mean to be. and you're right. Maybe it's best to leave it at that.

[BubbleSauce]

Saren discussion over? Well sh*t...
Oh well, I'll just post the amazing peice of artwork by ElysianOrchid, it really is beautiful.

[Chewin]

Shepard sure has a beautiful curly hair.