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Calibrations: Garrus Love and Turian Discussion

Débuté par Chimervera , juin 26 2010 03:45

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#4351
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:01

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Collider wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I thought of something the other day that made me feel hypocritical. I totally tell Zaeed off for "derailing the mission" but if I stop Garrus from shooting Sidonis...I"m doing the exact same thing. Made me have to come up with a better reason for doing what I did with Zaeed.

The facility had innocent people in it and Zaeed put them in danger just for his revenge.


Bingo.  But a lot of Shep's dialog is specifically abut him "derailing the mission."  You got to be tricksey to find a way around it.

#4352
Nilfalasiel
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:01

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I thought of something the other day that made me feel hypocritical. I totally tell Zaeed off for "derailing the mission" but if I stop Garrus from shooting Sidonis...I"m doing the exact same thing. Made me have to come up with a better reason for doing what I did with Zaeed.


If you don't shoot Sidonis, Garrus still gets closure. Unlike Zaeed, whose loyalty you can fail to get if you let Vido go. So no, it's not quite the same situation. Not shooting Sidonis implies you're also thinking that, deep down inside, Garrus didn't want to do it either (and he says as much). Zaeed really did want to nail Vido's ass, no matter what happened to anybody else.

#4353
TMA LIVE
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:03

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Collider wrote...

mashavasilec wrote...

Maybe Miranda and Samara will get rid of high heels? Though that's unlikely

hopefully


And the hooker suits?

#4354
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:05

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Well, I just meant that in both cases we left with a set mission plan. In one case: save civilians. In another: shoot Sidonis. If I cuss out Zaeed because I imply we can't alter a mission once it's already in place than IMO not shooting Sidonis makes me a hypocrite. It's saying "this rule applies to everyone but me." Which Shep IS the leader, but my Shep doesn't like leading that way.

So now, I just go with Collider's suggestion. The "mission derail" reasoning was more the dialog that comes out of Shepard's mouth in the Zaeed scene than my actual opinion. Shep was the one saying those things, not me. Another case of paraphrases on dialog wheel not being entirely accurate.

Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:07 .

#4355
Guest_mashavasilec_*
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:06

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TMA LIVE wrote...

Collider wrote...

mashavasilec wrote...

Maybe Miranda and Samara will get rid of high heels? Though that's unlikely

hopefully


And the hooker suits?


Nah, i'd just let them run around bare-footed. Camomile meadow for laughing and running will come as a free bonus to appearance pack

#4356
J4N3_M3
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:08

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appearance packs...

I loved Thane's suit in the ap-pack but I hated that they put those horrible glasses on him or whatever they were. also, that he got ear rings all of a sudden. I know, he was supposed to have ear rings in the first place but he's just not the ear ring kinda guy and looks horrible. i actually never checked if there was a mod out there that gave me a way around the glasses and the ear rings so I could still get Thane to wear that outfit. Because he looks so sahexey in it.

Garrus appearance pack: colours suck but the suit looks quite nice. I actually hate it whenever Garrus wears his helmet. I think it looks ridiculous.

#4357
Collider
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:10

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Zaeed doesn't let on that all he cared about was having Vido dead until it's too late and the facility was already on fire. He was dishonest and thought he could play Shepard.

Garrus was straight up from the get go: he wanted Sidonis dealt with. It's not so much a mission as Garrus getting some closure, like Nil said.

Modifié par Collider, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:12 .

#4358
Collider
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:11

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Nice to see you here, TMA!

also yea, give them some armor for lord's sake.

Modifié par Collider, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:11 .

#4359
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:14

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I agree their motives were different and my Shep making different decisions based on differing squaddie motives is a legitimate thing to do. Before though, she wasn't doing that. She was purely going off on Zaeed for "screwing with the plan" because of aforementioned dialog issues and because she thought that was the only reason Zaeed might get. His motives had nothing to do with it.

#4360
Collider
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:15

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so yea, with Garrus it's an informal agreement between friends, not really a mission persay. And only Sid's life was at stake.



W/ Zaeed it's just business - and Zaeed is violating the contract.

#4361
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:16

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Collider wrote...

so yea, with Garrus it's an informal agreement between friends, not really a mission persay. And only Sid's life was at stake.

W/ Zaeed it's just business - and Zaeed is violating the contract.


This is valid.

#4362
Collider
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:17

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree their motives were different and my Shep making different decisions based on differing squaddie motives is a legitimate thing to do. Before though, she wasn't doing that. She was purely going off on Zaeed for "screwing with the plan" because of aforementioned dialog issues and because she thought that was the only reason Zaeed might get. His motives had nothing to do with it.

Agreed, the game isn't always great about having enough choices for Shepard's motives or reasoning.

#4363
Nilfalasiel
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:17

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Collider wrote...

Zaeed doesn't let on that all he cared about was having Vido dead until it's too late and the facility was already on fire. He was dishonest and thought he could play Shepard.

Garrus was straight up from the get go: he wanted Sidonis dealt with. It's not so much a mission as Garrus getting some closure, like Nil said.


Yeah, Zaeed's mission involves liberating the refinery from the Blue Suns, but Zaeed actually sets the place on fire. He's damaging the refinery they were supposed to secure because he's blinded by his desire for revenge. That qualifies as "screwing with the mission objectives", or "derailing the mission" if you will. Garrus does no such thing.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:19 .

#4364
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:18

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Again, it's not Zaeed or Garrus' motives I'm concerned about. Rather, it's my femshep's motives for stopping them in both places.

#4365
Collider
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:21

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Again, it's not Zaeed or Garrus' motives I'm concerned about. Rather, it's my femshep's motives for stopping them in both places.

I noticed a problem like this with destroying the base..."i won't let fear destroy who I am"? It actually doesn't bother me, but I like to think my Shep has more concrete reasons.

#4366
Steel Dancer
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:22

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Xsause wrote...

Dr. Chakwas has been mentioned, so this must be posted.

Posted Image


Chakwas: undefeated Alliance gurning champion from 2178 to 2184.

#4367
Nilfalasiel
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:23

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Again, it's not Zaeed or Garrus' motives I'm concerned about. Rather, it's my femshep's motives for stopping them in both places.


But that's just what I'm saying: Zaeed's actions ARE derailing the mission. They're contrary to the mission plan, which specifically involves liberating the refinery. Setting fire to the refinery doesn't qualify as liberating it. He's going against orders because of a personal vendetta. So Shep is entirely right in telling him off for it.

Garrus' LM doesn't even have mission objectives beyond "help Garrus deal with his problems". Since anything Shepard does qualifies as "dealing with Garrus' problems", none of it can be described as derailing. Shepard never does anything that goes against mission orders.

 

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:27 .

#4368
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:25

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Nilfalasiel wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Again, it's not Zaeed or Garrus' motives I'm concerned about. Rather, it's my femshep's motives for stopping them in both places.


But that's just what I'm saying: Zaeed's actions ARE derailing the mission. They're contrary to the mission plan, which specifically involves liberating the refinery. Setting fire to the refinery doesn't qualify as liberating it. So Shep is entirely right in telling him off for it.
Garrus' LM doesn't even have mission objectives beyond "help Garrus deal with his problems". Since anything Shepard does qualifies as "dealing with Garrus' problems", none of it qualifies as derailing.

 


I disagree.  I think Garrus makes it explicitly clear that he wants to shoot Sidonis and that he wants Shepard's help.  By going along with it without telling Garrus I'm not committing to anything, I think I am leading him on.  I think it is unfair to him given my previous reasoning with Zaeed.

#4369
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:27

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Collider wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Again, it's not Zaeed or Garrus' motives I'm concerned about. Rather, it's my femshep's motives for stopping them in both places.

I noticed a problem like this with destroying the base..."i won't let fear destroy who I am"? It actually doesn't bother me, but I like to think my Shep has more concrete reasons.


I hated that too at first, but then my Akuze/Mindoir Shepard pulled it off.  That Shepard basically thinks "the whole universe is chaotic.  Thresher maws might pop up and devour everyone in two seconds.  Batarians might come and haul us off into slavery.  I can't control what other people do.  I can only control myself and my morality."  For her, saying that proclaimed her whole worldview.

#4370
Collider
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:27

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IIRC, technically, Shepard doesn't agree or swear to have Sidonis killed beforehand. She just says she'll help Garrus with Sid.

#4371
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:30

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Again, it's not Zaeed or Garrus' motives I'm concerned about. Rather, it's my femshep's motives for stopping them in both places.


But that's just what I'm saying: Zaeed's actions ARE derailing the mission. They're contrary to the mission plan, which specifically involves liberating the refinery. Setting fire to the refinery doesn't qualify as liberating it. So Shep is entirely right in telling him off for it.
Garrus' LM doesn't even have mission objectives beyond "help Garrus deal with his problems". Since anything Shepard does qualifies as "dealing with Garrus' problems", none of it qualifies as derailing.

 


I disagree.  I think Garrus makes it explicitly clear that he wants to shoot Sidonis and that he wants Shepard's help.  By going along with it without telling Garrus I'm not committing to anything, I think I am leading him on.  I think it is unfair to him given my previous reasoning with Zaeed.


Well it's not that you can talk him out of it before you get to Sidonis. His mission appeared to me as a classical case of when it's better to deal with things on-site

#4372
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:31

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Well, isn't that kind of like agreeing to drive the getaway car? You're not technically guilty of murder, but saying you will help him find Sidonis and then going off from the aircab with the understanding that you will line Sidonis up for a headshot is hardly not involving yourself. I'm not an expert on law, but such a person would still most definitely go to jail even if they weren't charged with murder 1. They'd be charged with something.

#4373
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:32

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mashavasilec wrote...

Well it's not that you can talk him out of it before you get to Sidonis. His mission appeared to me as a classical case of when it's better to deal with things on-site


I agree, but the game gives me no option to say that.  My Shepard THINKS that, but she never actually tells Garrus that.  That makes all the difference for me.

Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:33 .

#4374
Nilfalasiel
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:33

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I disagree.  I think Garrus makes it explicitly clear that he wants to shoot Sidonis and that he wants Shepard's help.  By going along with it without telling Garrus I'm not committing to anything, I think I am leading him on.  I think it is unfair to him given my previous reasoning with Zaeed.


Big difference though: Garrus's intentions =/= official mission orders. In Zaeed's case, he's disobeying official mission orders. In Garrus' case, Shep isn't disobeying official orders. She/He's just resisting Garrus' vengeful impulse, because she thinks he will regret it if she lets him go through with it.

And again, if you choose not to shoot Sidonis, Garrus admits that he wouldn't have been able to shoot him anyway. So not only is Shepard not disobeying official orders, whatever she/he decides to do fits Garrus' intentions, conscious or not. Garrus asked for help, Shepard helped. The simple fact that she helped was enough (you get Garrus' loyalty before anything actually happens with Sidonis).

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:38 .

#4375
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Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 01:36

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Nilfalasiel wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I disagree.  I think Garrus makes it explicitly clear that he wants to shoot Sidonis and that he wants Shepard's help.  By going along with it without telling Garrus I'm not committing to anything, I think I am leading him on.  I think it is unfair to him given my previous reasoning with Zaeed.


Big difference though: Garrus's intentions =/= official mission orders.

And again, if you choose not to shoot Sidonis, Garrus admits that he wouldn't have been able to shoot him anyway. So not only is Shepard not disobeying official orders, whatever she does fits Garrus' intentions.


Well call it backing out of an understood promise to a friend then.  To me that makes it even worse.  And Garrus CAN shoot Sidonis.  He's able to do it.  Until really pushed by Shepard, he is both able and eager to shoot Sidonis.
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