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[J4N3_M3]

Collider wrote...

IIRC, technically, Shepard doesn't agree or swear to have Sidonis killed beforehand. She just says she'll help Garrus with Sid.

Correct. Also, it builds up slowly, depending what dialogue options you are choosing. If you have no problem with Garrus beating the crap out of HArkin and then shooting him, but then stop Garrus from actually shooting Sidonis, that would make no sense.

You also get to ask Garrus what he will do once he finds Harkin where he will tell you that he will do everything necessary. you get two options here, both of course either renegade or paragon.

the following conversations definitely lead to a point where you can express your concern about Garrus, which, if you do, of course is another piece that adds to the entire "I stop him from shooting Sidonis" -makes sense  thing.

[Nilfalasiel]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Well call it backing out of an understood promise to a friend then.  To me that makes it even worse.  And Garrus CAN shoot Sidonis.  He's able to do it.  Until really pushed by Shepard, he is both able and eager to shoot Sidonis.

No, you're mixing up gameplay mechanics and storyline requirements. There are two different, mutually exclusive scenarios where you, the player, are deciding a fraction of Garrus' personality. Whatever you decide at that point become Garrus' personal canon, and you can't cross-reference them. Once you decide that one course of action is going to happen, then that's the Garrus you're choosing. The other ceases to exist.

If you're going the Paragon scenario, Garrus is simply blinded by his revenge and never actually wanted to kill Sidonis, because it goes against his deepest nature. Shepard senses it and helps him along this path. Once he has his finger on the trigger, he realizes it and says as much.

There is no understood promise: Shep never promises she/he will be complicit to killing Sidonis because she/he knows that Garrus himself knows it's wrong. And, as a good friend, she/he actually lets him realize by himself that it's wrong by not taking a firm stance and goading him to the right answer. If she/he outright said no, he might have persisted just because he felt that she/he was restraining him out of her own personal convictions. The way it plays out, she shows him that it's not that SHE/HE doesn't want to be complicit in murder but that HE himself feels it's wrong. She/he's not imposing her own will on him, she/he simply helps him figure out what he really wants. It's psychology: you need to let the other person figure things out by themselves.

If you go the Renegade scenario, Garrus has always believed that shooting Sidonis was right and the only way out and no matter what Shep does or does not do, he'll be ready and able to shoot him. She knows it, possibly agrees with it herself and lets him go through with it.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:53 .

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

But at no point do I explicitly state "Garrus, I am not okay with shooting Sidonis." I just keep going "are you sure? are you sure?" To which Garrus repeatedly says "yes." And then Shep says nothing.

why would shepard want to say that anyway?
I see it this way: My friend wants my help hunting down a traitor. A betrayal the way Sidonis has done, definitely deserves to be dealt with. But look, in the Terminus Systems, nobody cares about a group of Mercs being killed after being betrayed so of course nobody cares about the traitor. On Citadel they don't care about the traitor either, since it didn't happen in their area where they have to deal with a thing that happened on Omega.

So for Garrus to finally get rid of this loose end is dealing with Sidonis himself, even if this means killing him and even if this means for Shepard to go against her own believes.

On the entire hunt for Sidonis, or Harkin for that matter, Shepard can express her concern about her friend. She can actually say that she is worried about his change and where Garrus is going with this. So when they finally GET to SIdonis, before Shepard gets out of the car, she gets the chance to ask him again. And she even offers to talk to Sid. So Garrus - KNOWING Shepard well enough - KNOWS what's about to happen.

the rest is history.

Modifié par J4N3_M3, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:50 .

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I disagree again. Even afterwards he expresses concern that "I want to do the right thing Shepard. Not just for me. For my men. They deserve to be avenged, but when...yada, yada." He's saying that not shooting Sidonis was right for his own mental health but he still feels reservations about not avenging his men. I think Garrus really did want to shoot Sidonis and paragon Shep just gets him to change his mind/peter out at the last moment. Garrus has unresolved issues no matter which side you pick.

of course he has! because if life was that easy, everything was butterflies and glitter and sunshine  

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I disagree again. Even afterwards he expresses concern that "I want to do the right thing Shepard. Not just for me. For my men. They deserve to be avenged, but when...yada, yada." He's saying that not shooting Sidonis was right for his own mental health but he still feels reservations about not avenging his men. I think Garrus really did want to shoot Sidonis and paragon Shep just gets him to change his mind/peter out at the last moment. Garrus has unresolved issues no matter which side you pick.

of course he has! because if life was that easy, everything was butterflies and glitter and sunshine  

I know and I like that.  My point here was that taking the paragon choice does not magically mean that Garrus really didn't want to shoot Sidonis.  He did.

of course he wanted to.

And Paragon/Renegade are two sides of the same coin. Hence why I love this so much.

Paragon: Garrus will have to live with the fact that for HIM it was the right decision not to shoot Sid, but his men deserved revenge. One can argue, his men are dead and get nothing if he shoots Sidonis or not.

Renegade: Garrus will have to live with the fact that for his MEN it was the right decision to shoot Sidonis but probably will have to deal with guilt of shooting someone from afar instead of looking right into his face. One can argue, his men stood no chance against his betrayal either so he got what he deserved. 

So no matter how you toss or turn it, it makes sense.

[Nilfalasiel]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I know and I like that.  My point here was that taking the paragon choice does not magically mean that Garrus really didn't want to shoot Sidonis.  He did.

I disagree. By making the decision to shoot or not shoot Sidonis, you're making a scenaristic choice. Paragon and Renegade Garrus are two different, mutually exclusive characters: one cannot coexist with the other in the same storyline context. Paragon Garrus isn't thinking straight because his grief and his feeling of failure are blinding him to the fact that he can't take a life, especially in light of Sidonis' confession. Renegade Garrus has no problem with taking a life and doesn't think that Sidonis' confession lessens his crime in any way.

I see Paragon Garrus' wanting to kill Sidonis somewhat like someone saying "I swear I'm gonna kill that guy" when you're extremely angry with someone. Of course, in Sidonis' case, it's a lot more extreme than that, and killing him is definitely a possibility. But the point is, killing him will not make Paragon Garrus feel better. So while I have no doubt that he could've pulled the trigger if Shepard hadn't stayed in the way, he will never have felt truly at peace with the decision. Eventually he will realize that it doesn't matter to his men whether Sidonis is dead or not and be at peace with not shooting him.

Renegade Garrus, on the other hand will definitely feel better once he does kill Sidonis, whether he hears his confession out or not. Either because he feels that Sidonis deserves punishment, or because he feels that he deserves to be put out of his misery.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:04 .

[Collider]

Two Garruses?!?!

[J4N3_M3]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I know and I like that.  My point here was that taking the paragon choice does not magically mean that Garrus really didn't want to shoot Sidonis.  He did.

I disagree. By making the decision to shoot or not shoot Sidonis, you're making a scenaristic choice. Paragon and Renegade Garrus are two different, mutually exclusive characters: one cannot coexist with the other in the same storyline context. Paragon Garrus isn't thinking straight because his grief and his feeling of failure are blinding him to the fact that he can't take a life, especially in light of Sidonis' confession. Renegade Garrus has no problem with taking a life and doesn't think that Sidonis' confession lessens his crime in any way.

I think you are mixing up "want" and "can'" 
Wanting something doesn't mean you actually CAN do it! Garrus wanted to do it but couldn't in the end! 

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I know and I like that.  My point here was that taking the paragon choice does not magically mean that Garrus really didn't want to shoot Sidonis.  He did.

I disagree. By making the decision to shoot or not shoot Sidonis, you're making a scenaristic choice. Paragon and Renegade Garrus are two different, mutually exclusive characters: one cannot coexist with the other in the same storyline context. Paragon Garrus isn't thinking straight because his grief and his feeling of failure are blinding him to the fact that he can't take a life, especially in light of Sidonis' confession. Renegade Garrus has no problem with taking a life and doesn't think that Sidonis' confession lessens his crime in any way.

I think you are mixing up "want" and "can'" 
Wanting something doesn't mean you actually CAN do it! Garrus wanted to do it but couldn't in the end! 

Well, he can too until you change his mind.

of course, depending on you going paragon or renegade! 

paragon wants to but can't in the end.
renegade wants and still can .

[Nilfalasiel]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I know and I like that.  My point here was that taking the paragon choice does not magically mean that Garrus really didn't want to shoot Sidonis.  He did.

I disagree. By making the decision to shoot or not shoot Sidonis, you're making a scenaristic choice. Paragon and Renegade Garrus are two different, mutually exclusive characters: one cannot coexist with the other in the same storyline context. Paragon Garrus isn't thinking straight because his grief and his feeling of failure are blinding him to the fact that he can't take a life, especially in light of Sidonis' confession. Renegade Garrus has no problem with taking a life and doesn't think that Sidonis' confession lessens his crime in any way.

We'll have to disagree on that.  I don't think the characters are that malleable.  Consider how Garrus drops out of C-Sec no matter what you do with him in ME1 and proclaims that "Being security here is a terrible job.  This is exactly why I left."  He also advocates keeping the Collector base no matter what you do.  I know some of that is just for gameplay ease, but I think it establishes that Garrus has some "canon" personality.

Yes, the canon being that he's impulsive and is prone to get carried away by his emotions.

However, you as the player have entire control over his vision of what it means to take a victim's life. He is malleable in that respect: the Paragon and Renegade choices in his LM are two radically different visions of the situation. You are making a choice and interpreting the basis of his personality in one way or another. I'd say that's very malleable. Heck, you can even make him Renegade in ME1 and Paragon in ME2. It actually creates an inconsistency in his personality. I'm sure you can overcome that with the right explanation, but it still goes to show that there is a large part of malleability.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:11 .

[Collider]

Garrus can kill Sidonis, but he thinks he couldn't because of what Shep & Sid showed him. Like, for example, it's harder to kill someone if you find out they're a loving father w/ a family who adores him.

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Again, my point is you changed his mind. Up until you change his mind he is one Garrus.

it depends on at what point you see "Shepard changing his mind" because the only way to actually convince Garrus to let Sidonis live is when you talk to Garrus over the radio.

No matter what, Garrus hears Sidonis' confession and is able to shoot him. It solely depends on Shepard talking to him and telling him to spare Sidonis' life.







it

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Right, there is malleability. I just don't think there is such malleability that my decisions can dictate what Garrus thinks before I actually sway him one way or the other. He thinks a certain thing then based on that thing I make a decision in which I can change what he thinks.

the game proves you wrong here!

[Collider]

It's not that there are really two Garruses, but two versions of what Shep can do & therefore two versions of what Garrus sees.