29107 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Yes, I agree. But I still say that only becomes valid AFTER Shep points Garrus in one direction or another.

yep

[Collider]

I want to be a Garrus head policeman

Anyways, yea, may be best to drop this 1.

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Huh, how?

because the moment you talk to him during infront of Sidonis you actually change him. if you go paragon, he changes what he is thinking, from that point on. he sees the mistake in his action, although he is at a loss of how to revenge his fallen men.

so it's your actions changing him! 

[J4N3_M3]

that was fun ^.^

actually we should start our own thread: welcome to Quarian talk, the verbal head butting: yes we like to discuss things until they bleed *rofl*

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Huh, how?

because the moment you talk to him during infront of Sidonis you actually change him. if you go paragon, he changes what he is thinking, from that point on. he sees the mistake in his action, although he is at a loss of how to revenge his fallen men.

so it's your actions changing him! 

I agree with this completely.  What I am saying is that pushing him paragon does not change what he was thinking BEFORE you change his mind.  Say what he was thinking in the pre-fab foundry.  That remains the same regardless.

yeah but that's exactly how it is in life, no? I mean, I think differently today about certain things and can't go back to change how I thought about them 10 years ago.

[J4N3_M3]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I like turians, but I am totally a quarian in actuality. I LOVE to debate.

hence the quarian talk

[Collider]

It's part of why I love Garrus and Tali's loyalty missions: you get to argue =D

[J4N3_M3]

Collider wrote...

It's part of why I love Garrus and Tali's loyalty missions: you get to argue =D

and yell and touch and hug

[Sialater]

Garrus is using Shepard as his moral compass.

[J4N3_M3]

Sialater wrote...

Garrus is using Shepard as his moral compass.

yah he can actually use her for other stuff too, as long as his needle points into the right direction :whistle::whistle:

[Sialater]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Right, I'm just saying there are not two "mutually exclusive" versions of Garrus from the very beginning. At the beginning of the game there is just Garrus. Later you can change his mind on certain things.

I agree with you that he's not a morality version Shroedinger's Cat.  But I tell my arguments better in fiction and I've written Meghan's and his conversation about this already.  Essentially... he might have been OK with shooting the guy, but wanted Shep's approval either way.  He wanted you to take the decision out of his hands because he was too conflicted. 

If you notice, Sidonis is in range plenty of times before Shep's head is actually in the scope.  If Garrus WANTED that shot, no matter what Shep wanted,  he'd have taken it.  He's also in range still after the conversation's over and Shep starts moving away.  If he REALLY wanted him dead, if it were that simple, he'd kill him there.

This is more about his and Shepard's relationship.  Revenge is just the setting.

[Sialater]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Garrus is using Shepard as his moral compass.

yah he can actually use her for other stuff too, as long as his needle points into the right direction :whistle::whistle:

Oh, hey, lookit that!  The gutter followed us from the Kaidan Thread!

[J4N3_M3]

Sialater wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Garrus is using Shepard as his moral compass.

yah he can actually use her for other stuff too, as long as his needle points into the right direction :whistle::whistle:

Oh, hey, lookit that!  The gutter followed us from the Kaidan Thread!

:P:P:P:innocent::innocent::innocent::innocent:
i has no idea what you are talking about *hides nekkid kaidan in closet between nekkid garrus and nekkid thane*

[Nilfalasiel]

Whoops, I didn't see the call to drop the topic because I took too long typing the damn WoT...Well, here goes anyway, for what it's worth.

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Right, there is malleability. I just don't think there is such malleability that my decisions can dictate what Garrus thinks before I actually sway him one way or the other. He thinks a certain thing then based on that thing I make a decision in which I can change what his mind. That doesn't change what he thought BEFORE I made that choice however.

But he says so himself after letting Sidonis go: once he had him in his sights, he couldn't do it. This isn't you swaying him, this is him saying that he couldn't bring himself to take Sidonis' life. It's him acting because of his own personality. Notice that he doesn't say anything about Sidonis' confession at that point: it's the simple fact that Sidonis was at his mercy, and he couldn't bring himself to act on that. So it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Shepard forced him to hear Sidonis' confession. That comes in as a bonus, as a justification to him that he made the right choice after all.

However, he will only express this facet of his personality if you choose the Paragon route. This tells me that Renegade Garrus doesn't have that facet in his personality, and it's the fact that I, as the player, have been making Paragon choices for him over two games that have created this facet of his personality.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself properly, but your choices do shape a character's past just as much as they shape their future. This is the privilege of this kind of game, where you're being given the ability to make choices. You make your Shepard do things because you're interpreting her/his personality and past experiences in a certain way, and each choice helps you do that. It's the same thing for Garrus. When I decided to make Garrus a Paragon (and yes, that's entirely my decision, because he's still a fictional character that I'm given the liberty to shape), I decided that watching Shepard in ME1 made him realize that it wasn't ok to take a person's life without knowing all the facets of a given situation. Of course, this is easier to do when you don't have a personal stake in the matter (Saleon). But when someone whom you trusted and thought of as a friend betrays you (Sidonis), emotions are bound to take over. It's still not ok to take their life without at least hearing them out (and what Garrus says after letting Sidonis go makes me feel that he does think this), but revenge and sense of personal failure are very powerful detractors and can blind you to that fact. 

Which brings me to the other thing I wanted to pick up on.

J4N3_ME3 wrote...

Paragon: Garrus will have to live with the fact that for HIM it was the right decision not to shoot Sid, but his men deserved revenge. One can argue, his men are dead and get nothing if he shoots Sidonis or not.

Renegade: Garrus will have to live with the fact that for his MEN it was the right decision to shoot Sidonis but probably will have to deal with guilt of shooting someone from afar instead of looking right into his face. One can argue, his men stood no chance against his betrayal either so he got what he deserved.

Neither Renegade nor Paragon Garrus are actually doing anything for their MEN. Garrus' men are dead. You can't honour or desecrate them, because in order for that kind of action to exist and make sense, the recipient of the action needs to acknowledge it. A dead body can't acknowledge anything: it might sound shocking but it's the equivalent of giving a medal to a table or kicking a wall because you accidentally walked into it. They're all inanimate objects, and the only meaning that exists is the meaning you're giving to the action.

So honouring the memory of a dead person is a highly personal action: you're doing something that YOU think is good, something YOU think the other person would have wanted. The problem? It's still YOUR own image of that person, and, what's more, the person is no longer there to acknowledge what you're doing for them. What made them a person, their mind, their thoughts, their emotions are gone. All you have left is a body. And a body, in and of itself, is devoid of meaning, and nothing you can do to it will actually affect IT. It will affect you though.

So ultimately, Garrus' revenge is only about him, about what HE thinks is right, about what his own nature tells him at the crucial moment of taking the shot. In Paragon Garrus' case, he needs to realize that his men no longer expect anything from him because they don't exist anymore. It's only HIM that expects anything of himself. And when it comes down to the bare basics, he wouldn't be able to live with Sidonis' blood on his conscience, no matter what his anger might have been telling him. IMO, he says as much, or at least, implies as much.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:55 .

[J4N3_M3]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
But he says so himself after letting Sidonis go: once he had him in his sights, he couldn't do it. This isn't you swaying him, this is him saying that he couldn't bring himself to take Sidonis' life. It's him acting because of his own personality. Notice that he doesn't say anything about Sidonis' confession at that point: it's the simple fact that Sidonis was at his mercy, and he couldn't bring himself to act on that. So it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Shepard forced him to hear Sidonis' confession. That comes in as a bonus, as a justification to him that he made the right choice after all.

Although you only get this confession from Garrus if you choose Paragon regarding Sidonis, it is still not entirely true because even THOUGH Sionis is in his sights and even though he hears Sid's confession and remorse, Garrus is ready to shoot him until SHEPARD talks to Garrus and convinces him to let him go. Only AFTER that Sidonis will live. Before that, Garrus is all ready to shoot, no matter WHAT he sees or hears.

[Sialater]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Right, I'm just saying there are not two "mutually exclusive" versions of Garrus from the very beginning. At the beginning of the game there is just Garrus. Later you can change his mind on certain things.

I agree with you that he's not a morality version Shroedinger's Cat.  But I tell my arguments better in fiction and I've written Meghan's and his conversation about this already.  Essentially... he might have been OK with shooting the guy, but wanted Shep's approval either way.  He wanted you to take the decision out of his hands because he was too conflicted. 

If you notice, Sidonis is in range plenty of times before Shep's head is actually in the scope.  If Garrus WANTED that shot, no matter what Shep wanted,  he'd have taken it.  He's also in range still after the conversation's over and Shep starts moving away.  If he REALLY wanted him dead, if it were that simple, he'd kill him there.

This is more about his and Shepard's relationship.  Revenge is just the setting.

I think that's just some quirks of gameplay.  I don't think it really means much.  There is some guy on the forums (can't remember his name) who hates Garrus and derisively refers to him as "turian Canrad Verner."  I don't think that's true.  I think Garrus respects Shepard a lot, but I don't think he is so dependent on Sheapard that he waits for her approval for everything.  Paragon Shep really has to push Garrus to get him to back down.  Heck, she has to physically grab Sidonis at one point for fear Garrus will shoot him if he moves too much.

I told you I made this argument better in fiction.  It's not that he's dependent upon Shepard... It's that she's useful to blame it on.  If  "blame" is even the right word.  Meghan is a sole survivor and refuses revenge to work with Cerberus for the greater good.  (And she failed to save Toombs, which made it that much worse.)  

I'm really not explaining myself very well.

 

[Nilfalasiel]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...
But he says so himself after letting Sidonis go: once he had him in his sights, he couldn't do it. This isn't you swaying him, this is him saying that he couldn't bring himself to take Sidonis' life. It's him acting because of his own personality. Notice that he doesn't say anything about Sidonis' confession at that point: it's the simple fact that Sidonis was at his mercy, and he couldn't bring himself to act on that. So it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Shepard forced him to hear Sidonis' confession. That comes in as a bonus, as a justification to him that he made the right choice after all.

Although you only get this confession from Garrus if you choose Paragon regarding Sidonis, it is still not entirely true because even THOUGH Sionis is in his sights and even though he hears Sid's confession and remorse, Garrus is ready to shoot him until SHEPARD talks to Garrus and convinces him to let him go. Only AFTER that Sidonis will live. Before that, Garrus is all ready to shoot, no matter WHAT he sees or hears.

That's not what he says though. Once he's not in the heat of the action, he says that he couldn't shoot. I agree that the actual mechanics of the even have Shepard standing in the way, but that's purely mechanical to let the player control the action.

As I've mentioned before, Shepard's role in that mission is that of a psychologist: she/he's coaxing Garrus to think for himself, providing him with prompts to bring out his own thoughts on the matter. If you decide to step out of the way, you're making the decision, as a player, that what Garrus really and truly wants is to shoot Sidonis. If you, as the player, make the choice of letting Shepard stand there, you're making the choice to believe that Garrus only needs a little more coaxing to realize that he doesn't want to shoot.

It sounds convenient, and it is. It's just that there's no other way the gameplay mechanics can allow you to control that situation with precision. At that moment, you, the player, have Garrus' personality in your hands, and you decide how you want him to react to the situation depending on his past experience. If you believe that he wouldn't shoot Sidonis, you need to let him vent his anger and hear him out. If you believe that he would, then you can either let him shoot right away or let him hear him out to get info and closure, then take the shot.