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[Sialater]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I told you I made this argument better in fiction.  It's not that he's dependent upon Shepard... It's that she's useful to blame it on.  If  "blame" is even the right word.  Meghan is a sole survivor and refuses revenge to work with Cerberus for the greater good.  (And she failed to save Toombs, which made it that much worse.)  

I'm really not explaining myself very well.

Can you clarify what you mean by "blame"?  Maybe I should just read you fic.

I haven't gotten there yet for Loved.  I can only put it on the Beta thread in Clan V.  ETA:  It's there now.

Modifié par Sialater, 22 juillet 2010 - 03:10 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Making another post just in case someone else posts in the meantime.

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

What about when he says "There was still good in him.  I could see it."  To me that implies he thought there was no good in Sidonis and until confronted with his confession he did not see it.  I think he only changes his mind at that point.

Yes, but he says this *after* he says that he couldn't shoot. That's just what I've been saying: the fact that he doesn't shoot, at its bare basics, is not about Sidonis' confession. I agree that he probably thought Sidonis was a worthless scumbag before he actually heard him out. But knowing that he wasn't isn't the reason why he didn't shoot. At least, it's not the only reason

Also, he balks from things Shepard taught him and does the same thing regardless of what Shepard taught him in ME1.  Namely he quits C-Sec and goes vigalante.  That's pretty typical Garrus "compassionate renegade" to me.

Again, why does he go vigilante? Because Shepard's dead and her/his actions are being nullified by the Council. So, grief and anger. Acting out of impulse, not thinking straight. Also, he specifically says that, although he did go vigilante, he was careful not to cause collateral damage. No unnecessary bloodshed. And he says that if he's been Renegaded too, I believe, so it's not actually related to what Shepard taught him. It's a belief he has on his own. If you Paragon him, he's simply also more willing to hear people out before making a decision and more reluctant to shoot first and ask questions later.

Oh and one other thing. All that stuff about honoring dead being only a personal action kinda assumes the nonexistence of an immortal soul. I"m not saying I can prove there is such a thing as a soul, but whether or not there is such a thing is relevant to that argument.

Not necessarily. I admit that I'm not religious myself, but even if a soul does exist, when a person's dead, the soul either moves on to whatever afterlife you believe in, or you're simply no longer able to communicate with it to an extent that you can have it acknowledge what you do. So it boils down the the same thing: what you believe is right for the departed person, not what they believe is right (since they are no longer there to let you know this).

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 03:15 .

[Sialater]

It's more like, he's wrapped up in the moment and can't see the forest for the trees. Shep's the cool head for him here to help him make the decision.

[ciaweth]

I wondered how the Garrus thread had grown so quickly overnight, and now I know: There was another "Nuh uh," "Yeah huh!" conversation about Garrus' LM. Awesome.



P.S. I like Thane. I hope they find a believable way to prolong his life. Maybe with that Eupulmos stuff from the Taetrus disaster. And I think he totally would wear those earrings. He is a many-layered creature.

[Nilfalasiel]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree with this at least to the extent that Garrus in that moment is a psychological mess.  I still think he has certain immutable thoughts on the situation.  You just get to "cultivate" or "emphasize" certain thoughts with your decision.

Yes, but the part of his thoughts that is completely immutable (ie. independent of ANY Paragon/Renegade choices you've made in ME1 or ME2) isn't all that big. If you've decided that he's more Paragon, you've basically set certain things down in stone, not only for your personal headcanon, but also in relation to what happens in the game. A Paragoned Garrus will have tried to rejoin C-Sec. A Renegaded Garrus wouldn't. That's a case of two mutually exclusive choices there.

There's also the fact that Garrus has a very vague personal background. There's very little about his past that is entirely immutable. So there's a lot of room for filling things up with your personal headcanon and what you think suits his game development better. It might be more difficult to justify with a character who has a more definite background (eg. Thane or Jack), but with Garrus, there's a lot of room for interpretation. And what do you go by to interpret? His actions in the games. So there is some reverse engineering going on, whether you're thinking about why Garrus would make a particular choice, or writing fanfic about it, or simply filling in the blanks of his past in your head for the heck of it.

think that's precisely why he doesn't shoot.  Up until that moment he thought Sidonis was an inhuman scumbag.  Shepard shatters that assumption.  Given that, some other immutable qualities of Garrus (namely that it's hard for him to kill once he has seen the "good" in a person) kick in.

Ok, even if that is the case, Shepard is still right in letting him hear Sidonis out (and not derailing the mission! ). Had he shot him, and then found out his story, it would've haunted him for the rest of his life. Shep knows that Garrus wouldn't shoot a person in Sidonis' situation if he knew the details. It's just that Garrus, in his state of mind of the time, doesn't have much patience for finding out the details. That's impulsiveness and grief speaking, but the way the situation plays out shows him that he would've been wrong in following those feelings (this only works for the Paragon decision, of course).

We may just have to shake our heads and move on here.  I think we know where the other stands, and I don't think we're gonna change each others mind.  I just cannot interpret Garrus as being purely paragon.  Ever.  To me that construction does not exist regardless of how I push him.

Oh, I'm not saying he's purely Paragon. Before ME1, he definitely had a Renegade streak a mile wide and he's definitely more willing to take a swing than a pure Paragon Shep would. I'm only saying that, if you Paragoned him in ME1, he does get the sense that it's better to know the whole story before shooting. And he acknowledges as much if you keep Paragoning him in ME2.

Anyway, I don't want ****** folks off here.  Oh well.  This is what makes Garrus thread fun.  (And exhausting.)  You all do realize that my brain is throbbing now don't you?

Lol, a little brain gymnastic is always healthy!

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 03:33 .

[Vequi]

Xsause wrote...

Dr. Chakwas has been mentioned, so this must be posted.

Just finished going thorugh like 12 pages of posts that popped up overnight. when I came across this picture I laughed so hard I started to tear up. That was great Xsause, you totaly just made my day.


Now back to the current topic at hand. I have to agree with an earlier post in which I don't really see Garrus as Pargon, but mostly as a Renegade character. Not to say he doesn't have any Pargon at all, just that comparing the two sides he is more Renegade than Pargon. How much more Renegade he becomes is affected by your actions between the games. I'm probably not explaining my thoughts the best but I'd though I'd at least try.

[Cerrydd]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

On a completely different note, Inception came out in France yesterday, and I went to see it. Frickin' brilliant.

w00t! I'm going to see it tonight

Geez guys, you've been active while I was sleeping.

Shower scene: useless yes, but it didn't bother me. Though there was a missed opportunity in that, like someone else said (sorry, I read so much I can't remember who ), Garrus could've said something like "oops, bad timing?". It would make more sense if she came out of the shower in a towel, but I guess that's too much to ask from BW .

Hottest turian (aside from Garrus) is Sidonis for me. I love his bright face and the almost radiant purple-ish tattoo. But yeah, although turians are incredibly awesomely designed, not all of them are pretty. Like those mudfaced turians.

I definitely see Garrus as a renegade (as in: I want the job done, no matter what), but I think you can shape him during ME1 and 2. It won't make him go paragon, but at least less renegade. I should elaborate more here, but I don't have time for that right now.

[Sialater]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Sialater wrote...

It's more like, he's wrapped up in the moment and can't see the forest for the trees. Shep's the cool head for him here to help him make the decision.

This I can buy, but it still doesn't mean there are two Garruses.  In this case, "psychological mess Garrus" is canon Garrus until you clarify things for him.

Well, like I said, I don't buy Shroedinger's Cat Garrus. 

[ElectricZ]

It's easy after the fact to discuss what was the right thing or the wrong thing to do in the case of Sidonis, and arguments can be made either way. What I thought was cool was that a game could get me to care enough where I sweated the whole episode out. I'd hate to have to make any kind of decision like this in real life, where a friend's very soul was in the balance. The conversation in the car, the build-up to meeting with Sidonis and then watching how it all played out was one of the biggest adrenaline rushes for me in the game even more than most of the combat sequences. It hit me harder than any gaming experience I can think of in recent memory, because after all of the history with Garrus from ME1, it became very personal to me.



Garrus wasn't following me on my mission this time. I was following him on his. If anybody on the original Normandy crew had turned traitor and gotten Wrex, Tali, Kaiden, Ash, Liara, and Garrus all killed, my Shepard would hunted them down and killed them. Period. No amount of talk from anybody would have mattered. That's what Garrus was experiencing. I started down the paragon path, but to me the weight of the guilt and hate he was carrying around was going to crush him, and prior to the actual time it came to pull the trigger there was absolutely no evidence that Sidonis felt any remorse for his betrayal. The only way Sidonis could truly repay his debt was to have killed himself, and he didn't do it. So I let Garrus help him.



That was the call I made at the time, anyway, right or wrong. For me, it was a great gaming "what if" exercise, and from the amount of time people spend looking at all the angles I can see I'm not alone.

[Nilfalasiel]

Sialater wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Sialater wrote...

It's more like, he's wrapped up in the moment and can't see the forest for the trees. Shep's the cool head for him here to help him make the decision.

This I can buy, but it still doesn't mean there are two Garruses.  In this case, "psychological mess Garrus" is canon Garrus until you clarify things for him.

Well, like I said, I don't buy Shroedinger's Cat Garrus. 

Lol, what I meant with that whole "mutually exclusive" deal was that you can't decide to shoot Sidonis AND spare him. You have to make one choice or the other and take authorial responsibility for it, so to speak. And once you do, you basically pick your version of Garrus. Your version of Garrus shot Sidonis. Someone else's version of Garrus spared Sidonis. Yet someone else's version of Garrus shot both Sidonis and Saleon. Someone else's version spared both. All I'm saying is that whatever choices you make define your own Garrus. They all have a certain common basis, it's true, and I don't believe that Garrus is anywhere near pure Paragon, even after having been influenced by a Paragon Shepard. But everything beyond that is up to each individual player. There are probably almost as many Garruses (Garri?) as there are Shepards.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 03:46 .

[J4N3_M3]

Sialater wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I told you I made this argument better in fiction.  It's not that he's dependent upon Shepard... It's that she's useful to blame it on.  If  "blame" is even the right word.  Meghan is a sole survivor and refuses revenge to work with Cerberus for the greater good.  (And she failed to save Toombs, which made it that much worse.)  

I'm really not explaining myself very well.

Can you clarify what you mean by "blame"?  Maybe I should just read you fic.

I haven't gotten there yet for Loved.  I can only put it on the Beta thread in Clan V.  ETA:  It's there now.

I won't read it yet, because I am currently working on Darkangel and I know that Kara will get to the Sidonis incident as well and there will be an argument with Garrus about it as well. I don't want to be spoiled for it or have my own decision influenced on how to write my story about it I have it all worked out in my head, yet it's still a few chapters to go and it's hard to keep writing my own stuff if I have read something good from others before.

[Nilfalasiel]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

I won't read it yet, because I am currently working on Darkangel and I know that Kara will get to the Sidonis incident as well and there will be an argument with Garrus about it as well. I don't want to be spoiled for it or have my own decision influenced on how to write my story about it I have it all worked out in my head, yet it's still a few chapters to go and it's hard to keep writing my own stuff if I have read something good from others before.

This. It's extremely frustrating to have to stop yourself from reading other stuff while you're trying to cook up your own. Especially if your own is taking a long time X_X

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree that Sidonis to shoot or not to shoot dilemma is the crowning achievement of morality paradoxes in ME2. It causes more angst than anything else I have encountered.

It was Mordin's LM for me. Kasumi's too, but Mordin's decision far outweighs Kasumi's in terms of immediately visible repercussions. Garrus' LM was emotionally very powerful, but the fact that I feel so strongly about the issue didn't make the actual decision difficult.

Mordin's LM though...I sat staring at the screen for a good 5 minutes at every other convo choice. And I teared up when he prayed

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 22 juillet 2010 - 03:58 .

[J4N3_M3]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

I won't read it yet, because I am currently working on Darkangel and I know that Kara will get to the Sidonis incident as well and there will be an argument with Garrus about it as well. I don't want to be spoiled for it or have my own decision influenced on how to write my story about it I have it all worked out in my head, yet it's still a few chapters to go and it's hard to keep writing my own stuff if I have read something good from others before.

This. It's extremely frustrating to have to stop yourself from reading other stuff while you're trying to cook up your own. Especially if your own is taking a long time X_X

exactly! Although I am making progress and can't complain. I really enjoy writing it and it all comes out naturally. for now! I have to take that chance and just write until the muse leaves to kiss someone else.

[Sialater]

I've had to stop reading DA:O fic to keep it from invading mine, so I understand. The same thing doesn't seem to be happening to my ME fics, though. I'm not entirely sure why.

[Pacifien]

'Course that horrible data in Keiji's greybox did contain information on the Reapers. But I've destroyed it and kept it. Same with the Collector Base.