I think I agree with Andaius that his leadership confidence got shot up a bit on Omega. He recovers, sure, given his ability to lead the distraction team on the suicide mission, but I think a lot of that recovery is because Shepard believed he could do it. Shepard's endorsement goes a long way. I don't think he was totally dependent on it, but it darn sure didn't hurt.
Calibrations: Garrus Love and Turian Discussion
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Chimervera
, juin 26 2010 03:45
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#5077
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 06:38
Aricle
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This is an interesting point to me, in that I usually think of Garrus and rules in terms of his decisions about how to go about things, his dissatisfaction with C-Sec's rules 'n' regs, etc. If he can break rules for reasons other than or in addition to (depending upon alignment) getting from A to B faster, or rebellion of some sort, that's good.Collider wrote...
I think Garrus opened up a bit more in ME2. He's not terribly social, but I think his experience on Omega loosened him up a bit - no more rules.
Modifié par Aricle, 25 juillet 2010 - 06:38 .
#5078
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 06:40
Andaius20
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Collider wrote...
I'm not sure. I think he likes being in charge - he was the one, after all, who got frustrated with C-Sec's regulations. He does defer to Shepard though, because he highly respects her or him.Andaius20 wrote...
Collider wrote...
I think Garrus opened up a bit more in ME2. He's not terribly social, but I think his experience on Omega loosened him up a bit - no more rules.
In some ways having his own team did I think. However I think it got his leadership confidance shot. He goes back to following Shepard very quickly and isn't fogiving on himself for what happened to his team. Garrus doesn't really like to be the one calling the shots in the big plan it seems.
I think he's ok with calling shots that only effect himself (C-Sec regs violations would only hurt him, he would happily take them if he managed to actually help someone by doing it.) or the "Tactical" level of play with small teams. Like you see in the Collector base or the stuff he was doign in Omega. What gets him is the "operational" and strategic stuff. He makes a bad call with Sid and his team dies. So he questions his leadership skills to the big picture stuff.
#5079
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 06:43
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I also think that Garrus' confidence in his leadership abilities was shaken from Omega, but I still feel like Garrus likes to do things his way. I especially got that sense from when we meet Garrus - I could sense that Garrus was frustrated that he couldn't just take over the investigation on Saren completely.
Conveniently, much of what Garrus wants to do is also what Shepard wants to do. Shepard herself defied the Council in a lot things she did.
Conveniently, much of what Garrus wants to do is also what Shepard wants to do. Shepard herself defied the Council in a lot things she did.
#5080
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 06:50
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Collider wrote...
I also think that Garrus' confidence in his leadership abilities was shaken from Omega, but I still feel like Garrus likes to do things his way. I especially got that sense from when we meet Garrus - I could sense that Garrus was frustrated that he couldn't just take over the investigation on Saren completely.
Conveniently, much of what Garrus wants to do is also what Shepard wants to do. Shepard herself defied the Council in a lot things she did.
I agree he likes to do things his way. When someone gets in his way he gets very frustrated. I think he also doesn't mind falling in behind someone he genuinely thinks is a good leader. It's just that 98% of authority figures he's had didn't meet his definition of good leader. I think he also likes to be heard. That's one thing he likes in ME1. He thanks you repeatedly for hearing him out even if you disagree with him. At C-Sec I think he felt brushed off and dismissed. Remember Pallin? "Stall the Council. Don't be ridiculous. Your investigation is over, Garrus." Shep doesn't really do that kind of thing to him. If she shuts him down, she explains WHY she shuts him down.
I don't think his impulse to like things being done his way was shaken up on Omega. I think he's still just as independent. Rather, I think his belief that he could safely guide others was shaken up. I don't think he's questioning his own philosophy there. I think he starts questioning if it was wrong of him to get other people to rely on him because he feels he let them down.
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 25 juillet 2010 - 06:52 .
#5081
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 06:56
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Now that is some great insight, Raga. I had never thought about Garrus and people listening to him - thinking about it now, I definitely agree with you. He likes that Shepard gives him the time of day, without just passing him off as someone outrageous or out of line.
I think so.
I don't know. I think what Garrus was focusing was that he slipped up in that one instance on Omega. He's still happy to lead the team on the suicide mission, after all. I think that Garrus' experience on Omega drove him to do better. I'm not sure he's doubting himself more than just beating himself up on his "mistake" (which was, to him, not paying enough attention to his squad).
I don't think his impulse to like things being done his way was shaken up on Omega. I think he's still just as independent. Rather, I think his belief that he could safely guide others was shaken up.
I think so.
I don't think he's questioning his own philosophy there. I think he starts questioning if it was wrong of him to get other people to rely on him because he feels he let them down.
I don't know. I think what Garrus was focusing was that he slipped up in that one instance on Omega. He's still happy to lead the team on the suicide mission, after all. I think that Garrus' experience on Omega drove him to do better. I'm not sure he's doubting himself more than just beating himself up on his "mistake" (which was, to him, not paying enough attention to his squad).
#5082
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 06:56
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And all is right in the world once more....
#5084
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:00
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Collider wrote...
I don't know. I think what Garrus was focusing was that he slipped up in that one instance on Omega. He's still happy to lead the team on the suicide mission, after all. I think that Garrus' experience on Omega drove him to do better. I'm not sure he's doubting himself more than just beating himself up on his "mistake" (which was, to him, not paying enough attention to his squad).
I kinda think it also has alittle to do with hero worship. Garrus was trying to rebuild a team (just like shepard) he thought he could do everyhting just like Shepard did build a team of diverse individuals, and keep them together (just like shepard) but he failed at the takign care of his team part. Thats what got him the most I think. So whe nShepard reappears he jumps right back in with him/her.
#5085
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:01
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some background music for the pic.
Modifié par Andaius20, 25 juillet 2010 - 07:03 .
#5086
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:03
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oh god, too much lolz comign out of the Fleet thread much share!
#5087
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Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:05
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Collider wrote...
I think so.
You think his impulse to like things being done his way was shaken up? Or you think his belief he can safely guide others was?
I don't know. I think what Garrus was focusing was that he slipped up in that one instance on Omega. He's still happy to lead the team on the suicide mission, after all. I think that Garrus' experience on Omega drove him to do better. I'm not sure he's doubting himself more than just beating himself up on his "mistake" (which was, to him, not paying enough attention to his squad).
What about instances where he says things like "Not that I can question your judgement. Not after getting my own squad killed." I think he is implying that he thinks he might lack the capacity for good leadership. And Nalah Butler's letter certainly indicates that he is being really self deprecating. He is lamenting a mistake or more like multiple mistakes. He beats himself up for letting Sidonis join. He beats himself up for falling for Sidonis' ploy. And I think all that added together can't help but make him question his own skills.
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 25 juillet 2010 - 07:09 .
#5088
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:06
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Andaius20 wrote...
oh god, too much lolz comign out of the Fleet thread much share!
I want a renegade interrupt where I get krogan candy from a headbut!
#5089
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:08
Collider
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Good points, Raga, I see what you mean now, and I agree.
#5090
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:11
Aricle
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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
I want a renegade interrupt where I get krogan candy from a headbutt!
Imagine this on Halloween.
#5091
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:12
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It reminds me. ME2 actually showed the Krogan as a bit more sympathetic in some ways.
#5092
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Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:14
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Collider wrote...
It reminds me. ME2 actually showed the Krogan as a bit more sympathetic in some ways.
Really, I felt sorry for Wrex. But what with the Blood Pack and Mordin's logic my krogan sympathy pretty much dried up in ME2. Granted there were a few nasty bits like those two krogan on Tuchanka where one is talking about wanting to see his son or the sterile female that willingly undergoes tests. Hmmm, I guess ME2 convinced me the genophage was needed but that it was very tragic. Does that make sense?
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 25 juillet 2010 - 07:18 .
#5093
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:16
Andaius20
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I think it's greatly thanks to Wrex, if you have him still alive. HE seems to take lessons learn from shepard as well.
EDIT:
Thats why I had Mordin keep the cure info, to use at a later time when everythign settled down and the Krogan were perhaps ready to join the galactic community like Mordin wants.
EDIT:
Thats why I had Mordin keep the cure info, to use at a later time when everythign settled down and the Krogan were perhaps ready to join the galactic community like Mordin wants.
Modifié par Andaius20, 25 juillet 2010 - 07:24 .
#5094
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:18
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I agree. I think while Krogan were finally not depicted as only proud warrior types, it did indeed make the genophage seem more needed or less morally reprehensible. In ME2 we got a look at the Krogan that wasn't just Wrex or some random mercenary (mercenaries are not to be expected to be the picture of morality, after all). I liked that they threw in things like the Krogan reciting poetry or how desperate the Krogan due to the genophage. At the same time, of course, as you said, what they showed made the genophage choice more grey and balanced.Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Collider wrote...
It reminds me. ME2 actually showed the Krogan as a bit more sympathetic in some ways.
Really, I felt sorry for Wrex. But what with the Blood Pack and Mordin's logic my krogan sympathy pretty much dried up in ME2. Granted there were a few nasty bits like those two krogan on Tuchanka where one is talking about wanting to see his son or the sterile female that willingly undergoes tests. Hmmm, I guess ME2 convinced the genophage was needed but that it was very tragic. Does that make sense?
#5095
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:21
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Andaius20 wrote...
I think it's greatly thanks to Wrex, if you have him still alive. HE seems to take lessons learn from shepard as well.
Wrex is awesome with his not killing civilians and adopting Clan Weyrlock survivors and whatnot. He is also still a bit terrifying. "I won't change what we are, Shepard." Well, what krogan are is pretty darn scary sometimes.
#5096
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:32
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Seems reasonable to assume that
Wrex + Genophage Cure = Success
Wreave (Mr. "Status Quo") + Genophage Cure = Scary
Wrex + Genophage Cure = Success
Wreave (Mr. "Status Quo") + Genophage Cure = Scary
#5097
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:35
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Hmm Wrex ws pretty friendly to my Shepard all the time. "SHEPARD! My Friend! *Headbutts other Krogan out of the way.* Did you treat him badly in your game?
#5098
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:38
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Well, let's just say I am banking a lot on Wrex not being a typical krogan. Krogan are kinda like drow. They are so busy killing each other that mostly no one else has to worry, but if somebody comes along and gets them to band together via charisma and good policy they can potentially become a very large, very scary threat. Wrex sounds like a guy that could really rally the krogan but if he is not interested in changing "what krogan are" on a fundamental level, then maybe krogan reunification is not something I want. I trust Wrex. He is sensible and worldwise. He is also a krogan and "quiet, peaceful coexistence" was never something I think the krogan had in mind. That's why he still worries me a little. Part of me thinks "good for you Wrex and your people" and part of me thinks "man if this goes wrong..."
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 25 juillet 2010 - 07:41 .
#5099
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:40
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Shepard is a warrior. That's why Wrex respects her. That respect does not naturally follow to all humans, however. Or turians. Or salarians. See my problem?
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 25 juillet 2010 - 07:40 .
#5100
Posté 25 juillet 2010 - 07:41
Collider
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From a metagame perspective, I mean. Seems unlikely that curing the Krogan will invariably be fail.
