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Calibrations: Garrus Love and Turian Discussion


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#6826
Nilfalasiel

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J4N3_M3 wrote...

Funny enough, I bet all of us screwed up the Miranda-Jack-fight because of that on our first playthrough.


I managed to resolve both fights my first time through Posted Image

Concerning the eyebrows on Liara, I think it's just another way to make her look more human. No other asari does this, not even the really sleazy ones. Liara just looks as much like a human female as she possibly can.

mrscph wrote....

I'm pretty sure they gave Liara those eyebrows to keep her from looking too creepy. Most of the asari always seem to have sort of facepaint or something in the exact sport where the eyebrows should be.

Except Samara who I guess is supposed to have an eerie look.


Oddly enough, I thought Samara was beautiful. She's the most attractive asari, in my eyes.

As for the facepaint on other asari, at least it looks more exotic than simply painted on eyebrows.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 02 août 2010 - 07:58 .


#6827
Collider

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Liara having "eyebrows" is another indication that they based her around being a love interest.

#6828
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Nilfalasiel wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Funny enough, I bet all of us screwed up the Miranda-Jack-fight because of that on our first playthrough.


I managed to resolve both fights my first time through Posted Image

The charm/intimidate system in ME is very flawed, I think, most especially in ME2. I vastly prefer Dragon Age's persuasion system.

#6829
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I actually think the asari who have the craziest makeup are the coolest. Like the asari who is a receptionist for Sha'ira. I thought she was quite pretty. They look a little more alien.
I also resolved the arguments between Jack/Miranda and Tali/Legion on my first playthrough but that is because as I said I always go through with an uber goody goody first time.

Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 02 août 2010 - 08:00 .


#6830
Nilfalasiel

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Collider wrote...

The charm/intimidate system in ME is very flawed, I think, most especially in ME2. I vastly prefer Dragon Age's persuasion system.


I agree on that.

#6831
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My main problem with Mass Effect's persuasion system is that the prerequisite for charm and intimidate are morality points.

#6832
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Collider wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Funny enough, I bet all of us screwed up the Miranda-Jack-fight because of that on our first playthrough.


I managed to resolve both fights my first time through Posted Image

The charm/intimidate system in ME is very flawed, I think, most especially in ME2. I vastly prefer Dragon Age's persuasion system.


I like MEs system but I think it has a high learning curve.  Once you get it though, I think it has way more nuance than the DAO system.  As I do a paragade and dump points into speech skills first I often have an option of two different ways to persuade people.  It makes for interesting roleplaying.

#6833
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Why do you reckon the only fights are with the female LIs? How come the male LIs never get into scraps? I know it's not in character for them but you think the devs figured women would find it off putting if say Garrus and Jacob started butting heads?

#6834
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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Collider wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Funny enough, I bet all of us screwed up the Miranda-Jack-fight because of that on our first playthrough.


I managed to resolve both fights my first time through Posted Image

The charm/intimidate system in ME is very flawed, I think, most especially in ME2. I vastly prefer Dragon Age's persuasion system.


I like MEs system but I think it has a high learning curve.  Once you get it though, I think it has way more nuance than the DAO system.  As I do a paragade and dump points into speech skills first I often have an option of two different ways to persuade people.  It makes for interesting roleplaying.

I disagree. The ME system inhibits roleplaying. It means that I cannot have my Shepard use charm or intimidate at times simply because I don't have any paragon or renegade points - which is arbitrary.

#6835
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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Why do you reckon the only fights are with the female LIs? How come the male LIs never get into scraps? I know it's not in character for them but you think the devs figured women would find it off putting if say Garrus and Jacob started butting heads?


There is actually evidence that they had a grunt/mordin confrontation somewhere on the disk.

#6836
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I agree it should be open to letting you dump skills into it instead of just based on morality points. But I like having two different ways to persuade. And I almost never have a problem getting the persuades I want except the really, really high level ones like with Morinth. I've never had a problem being locked out of persuade options. I might not always have both, but I do more often than not. And I pretty much always have at least one.

Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 02 août 2010 - 08:07 .


#6837
J4N3_M3

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Collider wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Collider wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Funny enough, I bet all of us screwed up the Miranda-Jack-fight because of that on our first playthrough.


I managed to resolve both fights my first time through Posted Image

The charm/intimidate system in ME is very flawed, I think, most especially in ME2. I vastly prefer Dragon Age's persuasion system.


I like MEs system but I think it has a high learning curve.  Once you get it though, I think it has way more nuance than the DAO system.  As I do a paragade and dump points into speech skills first I often have an option of two different ways to persuade people.  It makes for interesting roleplaying.

I disagree. The ME system inhibits roleplaying. It means that I cannot have my Shepard use charm or intimidate at times simply because I don't have any paragon or renegade points - which is arbitrary.


This! 
Also, I am basically FORCED to choose to go one way or the other because if I don't I won't have enough points on either scale to solve certain situations, Jack/Miranda; Zaeed if you don't go after Vido, Tali/Legion. I really don't like that! That really sucks! Certain renegade interrupts are logical to do, even IF you play paragon and the other way around.

#6838
Nilfalasiel

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mrsph wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Why do you reckon the only fights are with the female LIs? How come the male LIs never get into scraps? I know it's not in character for them but you think the devs figured women would find it off putting if say Garrus and Jacob started butting heads?


There is actually evidence that they had a grunt/mordin confrontation somewhere on the disk.


Wow, I would've liked to see that. I guess they just thought that Mordin wouldn't stand a chance if Grunt decided to headbutt him...Or that Grunt wouldn't be able to understand Mordin's logic.

#6839
J4N3_M3

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree it should be open to letting you dump skills into it instead of just based on morality points. But I like having two different ways to persuade. And I almost never have a problem getting the persuades I want except the really, really high level ones like with Morinth. I've never had a problem being locked out of persuade options. I might not always have both, but I do more often than not. And I pretty much always have at least one.


If I play Paragade/Renegon, THIS doesn't work out! I tried Paragade/Renegon twice, and the moment, you don't have one clearly dominant scale, you don't get neither! I've been blocked out of certain options more than once and it sucked krogan testicles! 

Modifié par J4N3_M3, 02 août 2010 - 08:12 .


#6840
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I have literally never had this problem. I think I failed the Morinth thing one time ever but Samara saved my butt. Otherwise, I have had no issue. I don't like the DAO system as much because it's got this "get out of jail free" card to it. Dump stuff into the persuasion slot early in the game and you become silver tongued. I don't think the ME system is arbitrary. I just don't think it lends itself to neutral alignment. What they need is some kind of third meter or something for neutral folks.

#6841
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J4N3_M3 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree it should be open to letting you dump skills into it instead of just based on morality points. But I like having two different ways to persuade. And I almost never have a problem getting the persuades I want except the really, really high level ones like with Morinth. I've never had a problem being locked out of persuade options. I might not always have both, but I do more often than not. And I pretty much always have at least one.


If I play Paragade/Renegon, THIS doesn't work out! I tried Paragade/Renegon twice, and the moment, you don't have one clearly dominant scale, you don't get neither! I've been blocked out of certain options more than once and it sucked krogan testicles! 


I play a paragade as my canon Shep.  At game end she has maxed paragon meter and her renegade meter is half way full.  I don't have this problem with her.

#6842
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Nilfalasiel wrote...

Wow, I would've liked to see that. I guess they just thought that Mordin wouldn't stand a chance if Grunt decided to headbutt him...Or that Grunt wouldn't be able to understand Mordin's logic.


The actual confrontation dialog itself seems to have been removed forever. But the persuade their loyalty back conversations are still there.

Shepard: I cured that plague on Omega. I faced down a krogan chiefain on Tuchanka. Get upset with me if you want, but do not turn your back on me!

also I think they removed it because Grunt's character just doesn't seem to care that much about the genophage.

#6843
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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Why do you reckon the only fights are with the female LIs? How come the male LIs never get into scraps? I know it's not in character for them but you think the devs figured women would find it off putting if say Garrus and Jacob started butting heads?

Maybe. Can't say for certain. Apparently, I heard there are soundfiles on the disk that imply a Mordin/Grunt confrontation. I assume, then, if that is true, that they may have had other confrontations planned that they tossed or didn't make it in.

IMO, I like the idea of these confrontations:

Jacob vs. Thane
Garrus v. Jack
Garrus v. Zaeed
Samara v. Kasumi
Samara v. Zaeed
Samara v. Thane
Mordin v. Chakwas

In my group I wrote a lot about the confrontations.

Jacob v. Thane: (summary) Jacob discovers that Thane had killed a relative of his years ago as a part of his contract. She was a single mother with children, who ran a charity - an innocent person who had angered the Hanar with her denouncement of their dealings with the Drell (using them as assassins, etc). Jacob asks Shepard to place Thane under surveillance.

Samara v. Zaeed:
This one could be interesting. During Zaeed's loyalty mission, he puts
an entire refinery full of innocent slaves at risk just for his revenge.
That's definitely something Samara would disapprove of - so far as
putting the innocents in danger would go at least.

So, how would
the argument start? Well, Zaeed does have the surveillance thing in his
room. Considering Samara's history with mercenaries - particularly the
"killing" part, Zaeed could very well want to keep an eye on her. And
Samara would want to keep an eye on Zaeed - certainly. So Samara is
snooping around and ends up in Zaeed's room - and she sees that his
surveillance thing is observing parts of the ship, and including Samara.
Zaeed has also acquired a weapon mod that is especially lethal to the Asari.

Zaeed: "I have the right to watch my back, Shepard."
"She killed more of my friends than I can god damn count. An' good people. And she thinks she's a bleeding hero."

So
when Shepard arrives on the scene (the corridor that overlooks the
garage where the hammerhead is stationed, and in between Grunt and
Zaeeds' rooms), Zaeed had been held in a biotic stasis by Samara. He had also been hit by a biotic attack by her, after he discovered her sneaking around in his room.

Samara
notes that Zaeed has a history of being an immoral mercenary (who even
started the Blue Suns, now a slaver group) whose primary motive is money
and revenge. That he puts innocents needlessly in danger. And he is
monitoring the Normandy when regulations are against that.

And
Zaeed says that he knows how Justicars work - they're not much better.
They would kill dozens of civilians themselves if they got in their way.
He'll say that it wasn't he who killed the slaves (if you did
renegade), it was Vido, and they killed Vido. And now that Samara came
in into his room (trespassing)
and nearly attacked him, Samara is just proving his point about her and
Justicars, as well as Zaeed's need to look out for himself.

#6844
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That and having to break up a fight every five minutes gets redundant.

#6845
J4N3_M3

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree it should be open to letting you dump skills into it instead of just based on morality points. But I like having two different ways to persuade. And I almost never have a problem getting the persuades I want except the really, really high level ones like with Morinth. I've never had a problem being locked out of persuade options. I might not always have both, but I do more often than not. And I pretty much always have at least one.


If I play Paragade/Renegon, THIS doesn't work out! I tried Paragade/Renegon twice, and the moment, you don't have one clearly dominant scale, you don't get neither! I've been blocked out of certain options more than once and it sucked krogan testicles! 


I play a paragade as my canon Shep.  At game end she has maxed paragon meter and her renegade meter is half way full.  I don't have this problem with her.


the problem with full is that full doesn't actually mean full! that's what pissed me off so much! The moment I realized I could check my P/R points with Gibbed, I started to do that to have a comparison between my characters. And it's amazing, because although it says full in two playthroughs, there's at least 120 points difference between both paragon scales. So full and full are two different things in this game! 

I just don't like that I as player NEVER know where exactly my scale is at. And I can NEVER know how many points of the actually at that point in the game available total I have. So, if a decision I make, makes me fall behind, or if a certain assignment I postpone has any impact on the total, I never know! 

#6846
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I also want to write up on these hypothetical Garrus v. Jack and Garrus v. Zaeed confrontations. Should be fun - the only thing is that I want to make them balanced.

#6847
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J4N3_M3 wrote...
the problem with full is that full doesn't actually mean full! that's what pissed me off so much! The moment I realized I could check my P/R points with Gibbed, I started to do that to have a comparison between my characters. And it's amazing, because although it says full in two playthroughs, there's at least 120 points difference between both paragon scales. So full and full are two different things in this game! 

I just don't like that I as player NEVER know where exactly my scale is at. And I can NEVER know how many points of the actually at that point in the game available total I have. So, if a decision I make, makes me fall behind, or if a certain assignment I postpone has any impact on the total, I never know! 


This is valid.  I still think the problem is more in the way that points are tallied than in the actual theory of the persuade system itself.  They need to find a better way than the weird percentage thing they currently do to determine if you have enough points for a particular persuade.  I still don't think they should implement a totally skill based DAO style system.  

#6848
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Collider wrote...

I also want to write up on these hypothetical Garrus v. Jack and Garrus v. Zaeed confrontations. Should be fun - the only thing is that I want to make them balanced.


I actually don't think Garrus would butt heads with Jack especially after her loyalty mission.  He never expresses concern or anything about her on Purgatory.

Now, Garrus and Zaeed I could see.  I think it would have something to do with Zaeed being a merc.  Maybe Garrus' team killed some buddy of his.  Maybe Garrus finds out Zaeed was involved in some really unethical deal that hurt his team in some way. 

Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 02 août 2010 - 08:28 .


#6849
Nilfalasiel

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I have literally never had this problem. I think I failed the Morinth thing one time ever but Samara saved my butt. Otherwise, I have had no issue. I don't like the DAO system as much because it's got this "get out of jail free" card to it. Dump stuff into the persuasion slot early in the game and you become silver tongued.


Well, it's not just the Coercion skill. Persuasion also depends on your Cunning stat, and Intimidation on your Strength. I can see how a mage would have trouble with Intimidating people. Or how a warrior who doesn't put much effort into Cunning could have trouble with Persuasion.

#6850
J4N3_M3

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...
the problem with full is that full doesn't actually mean full! that's what pissed me off so much! The moment I realized I could check my P/R points with Gibbed, I started to do that to have a comparison between my characters. And it's amazing, because although it says full in two playthroughs, there's at least 120 points difference between both paragon scales. So full and full are two different things in this game! 

I just don't like that I as player NEVER know where exactly my scale is at. And I can NEVER know how many points of the actually at that point in the game available total I have. So, if a decision I make, makes me fall behind, or if a certain assignment I postpone has any impact on the total, I never know! 


This is valid.  I still think the problem is more in the way that points are tallied than in the actual theory of the persuade system itself.  They need to find a better way than the weird percentage thing they currently do to determine if you have enough points for a particular persuade.  I still don't think they should implement a totally skill based DAO style system.  


Never said, they should. I was just giving my opinion, why I think the ME2 system inhibits roleplaying. Because every Renegade decision I make on a Paragon playthrough makes me fall behind on the Paragon scale. And this is something, that's just not fair, because roleplaying wise, you cannot ALWAYS be the hero.

Also, a Renegade shep doesn't just let the Batarian die during recruiting Mordin. Helping him to get information is LOGICAL! 

Then, on Purgatory with the guard beating the prisoner. You get only 2 Renegade points for saying that's what he deserves, yet 5 if you choose Renegade to make the guard call it off. BUT you also get 2 Paragon! While on a paragon pt you get 7 paragon points in total for choosing paragon to make the guard call it off. So, does that mean that if I only get 2 renegade points, that I fell back behind my scale by 3 points because I didn't choose the renegade way to make the guard call it off because I wanted to avoid the Paragon points? It's stuff like that that really annoys me.

And dammit, I know the points by heart, I think, I need serious help! 

GARRUS HUG! QUICK!