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[Collider]

I also found Garrus far more believable as a team leader than Miranda.

[Pacifien]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
How about this then: do you think it would be interesting for ME3 to designate a field second in command or just in general to assign rank and placement among the crew. A sort of space stronghold quest. I think that could be interesting.

Didn't something similar happen for Dragon Age: Awakenings? (I haven't played that one.)

I always liked the idea of Garrus stepping up to a commander status in ME3, but that probably means not being a squadmate. So long as a character gets a good story, though, I probably won't mind if they aren't a squad member. Like Wrex.

[Collider]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Certainly of the squad he is. I can see Miranda being better at the pushing papers bit though.

Yea, Garrus isn't one for files and papers. But like I said, he's easily the most believable team leader for the suicide mission. Until the game tells you in suicide mission character summaries, I wouldn't have guessed that Jacob and Miranda would be viable team leaders.

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
I also found Garrus far more believable as a team leader than Miranda.

I didn't believe Miranda would make for a good team leader depending on the squad you leave under her command. Jacob just wasn't given enough of a background to lead me to believe he was leadership material either.

But there are different types of leaders. Miranda led the Lazarus Project, which pretty much did its job in bring Shepard back to life in every way the Illusive Man intended. So she can lead projects, but not necessarily battle squads.

[Collider]

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
I also found Garrus far more believable as a team leader than Miranda.

I didn't believe Miranda would make for a good team leader depending on the squad you leave under her command. Jacob just wasn't given enough of a background to lead me to believe he was leadership material either.

But there are different types of leaders. Miranda led the Lazarus Project, which pretty much did its job in bring Shepard back to life in every way the Illusive Man intended. So she can lead projects, but not necessarily battle squads.

That's essentially my issue. The game didn't give proper indication before the suicide mission that those two characters could lead squads in battle.

[TMA LIVE]

Collider wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
I also found Garrus far more believable as a team leader than Miranda.

I didn't believe Miranda would make for a good team leader depending on the squad you leave under her command. Jacob just wasn't given enough of a background to lead me to believe he was leadership material either.

But there are different types of leaders. Miranda led the Lazarus Project, which pretty much did its job in bring Shepard back to life in every way the Illusive Man intended. So she can lead projects, but not necessarily battle squads.

That's essentially my issue. The game didn't give proper indication before the suicide mission that those two characters could lead squads in battle.

Well, it more of how much do you know about these people? You played the whole game with them. You know Miranda is your Second in Command, and leads projects. You know Jacob led a mission with a crew of people, and stopped a plague. When it comes to mission briefings, they are the people you talk to, etc.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 02 août 2010 - 10:20 .

[Nilfalasiel]

mrsph wrote...

Jacob and Miranda switch personalities when they get on the Normandy.

 I never got that impression...Miranda always stays professional, even though she does drop the abrasiveness to an extent (after she sees that you're capable of doing your job on Freedom's Progress). Jacob remains the guy you can be more informal with, to an extent (but god forbid you try to pry in his personal biznis). I thought they remained consistent.

I do agree that Miranda would be better at paperwork though. Her leadership in the field is also hampered by the fact that none of the active squad, apart from her and Jacob, are Cerberus. They're either aliens (who would obviously have misgivings about Cerberus' agenda), robots (Legion), mercenaries (Zaeed), people with their own agenda (Kasumi) or people who have been used by Cerberus (Jack). So Miranda might be the best team leader in the world, but if I sense that most of my crew doesn't trust her, then I'm damn well not giving her the post.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 02 août 2010 - 10:13 .

[Collider]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Collider wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
I also found Garrus far more believable as a team leader than Miranda.

I didn't believe Miranda would make for a good team leader depending on the squad you leave under her command. Jacob just wasn't given enough of a background to lead me to believe he was leadership material either.

But there are different types of leaders. Miranda led the Lazarus Project, which pretty much did its job in bring Shepard back to life in every way the Illusive Man intended. So she can lead projects, but not necessarily battle squads.

That's essentially my issue. The game didn't give proper indication before the suicide mission that those two characters could lead squads in battle.

Well, it more of how much do you know about these people? You played the whole game with them. You know Miranda is your Second in Command, and leads projects. You know Jacob lead a mission with a crew of people, and stopped a plague. When it comes to mission briefings, they are the people you talk to, etc.

No you don't, I'm fairly certain. Jacob only says that he stopped the plague. And in Galaxy I'm pretty sure he rides solo. Mordin led science projects before, as I recall, but he isn't a good leader.

[Xsause]

Collider wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
I also found Garrus far more believable as a team leader than Miranda.

I didn't believe Miranda would make for a good team leader depending on the squad you leave under her command. Jacob just wasn't given enough of a background to lead me to believe he was leadership material either.

But there are different types of leaders. Miranda led the Lazarus Project, which pretty much did its job in bring Shepard back to life in every way the Illusive Man intended. So she can lead projects, but not necessarily battle squads.

That's essentially my issue. The game didn't give proper indication before the suicide mission that those two characters could lead squads in battle.

Miranda even flat-out says that she doesn't have that fire Shepard has that makes people want to follow you into hell itself. So I figured she'd be a bad leader, and chose Garrus the first time.

When I later read that she was a good team leader, I was kind of confused.

[Collider]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Jacob and Miranda switch personalities when they get on the Normandy.

 I never got that impression...Miranda always stays professional, even though she does drop the abrasiveness to an extent (after she sees that you're capable of doing your job on Freedom's Progress). Jacob remains the guy you can be more informal with, to an extent (but god forbid you try to pry in his personal biznis). I thought they remained consistent.

I definitely disagree.

Cerberus Station Miranda: Go away and stop talking. We have a mission to do, we don't have time for chit chat. Especially with you.
Normandy Miranda: You want to talk? That's fair! Let me tell you my life story!

Pre-Normandy, Jacob is very open and honest. On the Normandy, he doesn't want to talk about certain things. Certainly though, Miranda's shift was hugely more jarring.

I do agree that Miranda would be better at paperwork though. Her leadership in the field is also hampered by the fact that none of the active squad, apart from her and Jacob, are Cerberus. They're either aliens (who would obviously have misgivings about Cerberus' agenda), mercenaries (Zaeed), people with their own agenda (Kasumi) or people who have been used by Cerberus (Jack). So Miranda might be the best team leader in the world, but if I sense that most of my crew doesn't trust her, then I'm damn well not giving her the post.

agreed.

[Pacifien]

mrsph wrote...
The weird thing about Jacob is that he does not have the dialog for leading the first team that would indicate that he is the right choice.

But Zaeed actually has the dialog that a good choice would have.

Bioware is trolls.

I'm convinced that the developers switched around who made a good specialist at what point multiple times throughout the development of the game. Wouldn't be surprised if Zaeed was supposed to be a reasonable choice at one point.

[TMA LIVE]

Collider wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Collider wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
I also found Garrus far more believable as a team leader than Miranda.

I didn't believe Miranda would make for a good team leader depending on the squad you leave under her command. Jacob just wasn't given enough of a background to lead me to believe he was leadership material either.

But there are different types of leaders. Miranda led the Lazarus Project, which pretty much did its job in bring Shepard back to life in every way the Illusive Man intended. So she can lead projects, but not necessarily battle squads.

That's essentially my issue. The game didn't give proper indication before the suicide mission that those two characters could lead squads in battle.

Well, it more of how much do you know about these people? You played the whole game with them. You know Miranda is your Second in Command, and leads projects. You know Jacob lead a mission with a crew of people, and stopped a plague. When it comes to mission briefings, they are the people you talk to, etc.

No you don't, I'm fairly certain. Jacob only says that he stopped the plague. And in Galaxy I'm pretty sure he rides solo. Mordin led science projects before, as I recall, but he isn't a good leader.

Flew as a Corsair, and though he was working with Miranda, he was leading the mission, and asked the help of that asari, and krogan.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 02 août 2010 - 10:22 .

[TMA LIVE]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Huh, how does that qualify him for leadership?

He lead a team of people. Miranda, an Asari scientist, their pilot. Not saying he's number one choice. That's Miranda and Garrus. He's just third or fourth, compared to others. Also, works in a combat unit more during his time with the Alliance, thus has more on the field experience with a team then most.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 02 août 2010 - 10:25 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Collider wrote...

I definitely disagree.

Cerberus Station Miranda: Go away and stop talking. We have a mission to do, we don't have time for chit chat. Especially with you.
Normandy Miranda: You want to talk? That's fair! Let me tell you my life story!

Notice that the change happens after Freedom's Progress, ie. after she's seen that you're capable of doing the job that's required of you. Which is why she softens up, as I've mentioned. Still, until the business with her sister comes up, she remains very professional. And even after it's been dealt with, if you're either female or are not romancing her, she stays professional.

Pre-Normandy, Jacob is very open and honest. On the Normandy, he doesn't want to talk about certain things. Certainly though, Miranda's shift was hugely more jarring.

Again, Jacob is sympathetic and willing to talk as long as you don't touch on business that's too private. He only clams up if you try to psychoanalyze him or talk to him too often. And again, that doesn't strike me as inconsistent.

Pacifien wrote...

I'm convinced that the developers switched around who made a good specialist at what point multiple times throughout the development of the game. Wouldn't be surprised if Zaeed was supposed to be a reasonable choice at one point.

Dunno...Once you notice that he has the unfortunate tendency of being the only one left alive after his operations, I think it's telling you something. Then again, that trait might not have been present in his early development. Still, I'd never let him anywhere near team leader.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 02 août 2010 - 10:27 .

[Collider]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Collider wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Collider wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
I also found Garrus far more believable as a team leader than Miranda.

I didn't believe Miranda would make for a good team leader depending on the squad you leave under her command. Jacob just wasn't given enough of a background to lead me to believe he was leadership material either.

But there are different types of leaders. Miranda led the Lazarus Project, which pretty much did its job in bring Shepard back to life in every way the Illusive Man intended. So she can lead projects, but not necessarily battle squads.

That's essentially my issue. The game didn't give proper indication before the suicide mission that those two characters could lead squads in battle.

Well, it more of how much do you know about these people? You played the whole game with them. You know Miranda is your Second in Command, and leads projects. You know Jacob lead a mission with a crew of people, and stopped a plague. When it comes to mission briefings, they are the people you talk to, etc.

No you don't, I'm fairly certain. Jacob only says that he stopped the plague. And in Galaxy I'm pretty sure he rides solo. Mordin led science projects before, as I recall, but he isn't a good leader.

Flew as a Corsair, and though he was working with Miranda, he was leading the mission, and asked the help of that asari, and krogan.

Lol that's not quite enough. Corsairs are basically privateers (non-official, and mostly solo) and asking the help of two people isn't...that remarkable.

[Collider]

Notice that the change happens after Freedom's Progress, ie. after she's seen that you're capable of doing the job that's required of you. Which is why she softens up, as I've mentioned. Still, until the business with her sister comes up, she remains very professional. And even after it's been dealt with, if you're either female or are not romancing her, she stays professional.

The problem is that the game doesn't tell you that's why she opens up. For all we know, she could open up on the Normandy because she likes being in an office. The unexplained shift from "GTFO STFU" to "Let's talk!" is very jarring because it's unexplained. A simple "I didn't expect you would do so well on Freedom's Progress" from Miranda herself would have sufficed.

[TMA LIVE]

Collider wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Collider wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Collider wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
I also found Garrus far more believable as a team leader than Miranda.

I didn't believe Miranda would make for a good team leader depending on the squad you leave under her command. Jacob just wasn't given enough of a background to lead me to believe he was leadership material either.

But there are different types of leaders. Miranda led the Lazarus Project, which pretty much did its job in bring Shepard back to life in every way the Illusive Man intended. So she can lead projects, but not necessarily battle squads.

That's essentially my issue. The game didn't give proper indication before the suicide mission that those two characters could lead squads in battle.

Well, it more of how much do you know about these people? You played the whole game with them. You know Miranda is your Second in Command, and leads projects. You know Jacob lead a mission with a crew of people, and stopped a plague. When it comes to mission briefings, they are the people you talk to, etc.

No you don't, I'm fairly certain. Jacob only says that he stopped the plague. And in Galaxy I'm pretty sure he rides solo. Mordin led science projects before, as I recall, but he isn't a good leader.

Flew as a Corsair, and though he was working with Miranda, he was leading the mission, and asked the help of that asari, and krogan.

Lol that's not quite enough. Corsairs are basically privateers (non-official, and mostly solo) and asking the help of two people isn't...that remarkable.

Compare that to Jack, Thane, Samara. They aren't people that have worked with a team. And Zaeed is a "Every man for himself" kind of guy.

[TMA LIVE]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Huh, how does that qualify him for leadership?

He lead a team of people. Miranda, an Asari scientist, their pilot. Not saying he's number one choice. That's Miranda and Garrus. He's just third or fourth, compared to others. Also, works in a combat unit more during his time with the Alliance, thus has more on the field experience with a team then most.

But how is Shep to know that?  The only way to know that is metagaming.

Worked in Alliance means solo?