29107 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

I brought up my criticisms for the Jack romance in the Jack thread, Pacifien, and I did so because I wanted to know what the fans thought of my opinion and the concerns/criticisms I raised for the romance. In doing so, I gained new perspectives. And yes, I did find people who agreed with some of my points. Yea, true, no one really totally agreed with my opinion - everyone pretty much still loved Jack's romance. But I don't think my time there was useless. Who says I have to be looking for people who agree with me?

I think it provides a more structured environment to discuss the character. In particular, this thread itself says in the OP that the thread is welcome to any discussion of Garrus in general.

Modifié par Collider, 21 août 2010 - 10:10 .

[jtav]

But as a practical matter, the thought of going into a thread full of Garrus supporters is scary for someone who isn't a Garrus fan and has a criticism to make. Garrus is my least favorite team mate, but I wouldn't feel People on these forums usually don't enjoy hearing criticism of their favorite character and/or LI.

[Giggles_Manically]

It may seem that way jtav to most, yet..



I really hated Alistair and Morrigan at the end of my very first run through, and was quite loud about it.



However going into those respective threads showed me a depth to their chrachters and made me seem them much differently. Although the ME side is much different from the DA side of the forum.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

jtav wrote...

But as a practical matter, the thought of going into a thread full of Garrus supporters is scary for someone who isn't a Garrus fan and has a criticism to make. Garrus is my least favorite team mate, but I wouldn't feel People on these forums usually don't enjoy hearing criticism of their favorite character and/or LI.

Thats true. But we've seen people come into our thread and make criticisms several times before. We didn't flame them or chase them out we just gave them our perspective. The conversations were usually civil. I could say the same for other support threads but I quite honestly haven't seen how they deal with critics.

[Collider]

jtav wrote...

But as a practical matter, the thought of going into a thread full of Garrus supporters is scary for someone who isn't a Garrus fan and has a criticism to make. Garrus is my least favorite team mate, but I wouldn't feel People on these forums usually don't enjoy hearing criticism of their favorite character and/or LI.

True, jtav, I just don't think it's useless though. No one really liked or agreed with my opinions of the Jack romance in the Jack thread, but they still responded well enough. My opinion of the Jack romance didn't really change, but I thought the discussion was worth it.

I think it depends on how one words their criticism. If they make a (negative) statement about the fans of the character in the thread for that character, it is unlikely that they will be received as well since people generally do not respond well to being insulted or having things assumed about them, especially by something as unimportant who one romances. If someone keeps it about the character only, as I did, it's very possible for them to be received better.

I suppose my issue with the extraneous threads like "My beef with the Garrus romance" is that it contributes to clutter - as there already is a Garrus thread - and that those extraneous threads often collapse due to trolls, flaming, or off-topic posts - which to me means it is less structured and a less welcoming environment.

Modifié par Collider, 21 août 2010 - 10:27 .

[Pacifien]

Are we talking about the same thread that was already deemed in this thread as one that won't end well and was already equated to trolling? Does it only end well and is not trolling if it's brought to the Garrus thread?

I'm sure it's perfectly fine for someone who isn't a supporter of a certain character to then go to that character support thread for a discussion. I do it all the time. I just don't think you should have to. The moderators might think otherwise, but the moderators and I aren't on speaking terms right now due to other issues.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Pacifien wrote...

Are we talking about the same thread that was already deemed in this thread as one that won't end well and was already equated to trolling? Does it only end well and is not trolling if it's brought to the Garrus thread?
I'm sure it's perfectly fine for someone who isn't a supporter of a certain character to then go to that character support thread for a discussion. I do it all the time. I just don't think you should have to. The moderators might think otherwise, but the moderators and I aren't on speaking terms right now due to other issues.

Actually, it usually does end well if there isn't trolling or uber character bashing/flamming (Not calling out any specific user).

[Pacifien]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
Actually, it usually does end well if there isn't trolling or uber character bashing/flamming (Not calling out any specific user).

That actually wasn't my point, but no one ever gets my point.

[Collider]

I don't think anyone is saying that people should have to go here.

[kglaser]

jtav wrote...

But as a practical matter, the thought of going into a thread full of Garrus supporters is scary for someone who isn't a Garrus fan and has a criticism to make. Garrus is my least favorite team mate, but I wouldn't feel People on these forums usually don't enjoy hearing criticism of their favorite character and/or LI.

What!?!?  Get out of here right now!!
(kidding.  KIDDING.)

Seriously, though, maybe some people say they don't mind intelligent discussion of their favorite characters even if it isn't favorable towards them, but I really mean that and I think most of the rest of us do, too.  By "intelligent" discussion, I mean "I don't like Garrus, and here's why" and not "ZOMG, Garrus is teh suck, you fail at life if you liek him".  I really am open to any discussion, if held in a non-hostile manner.  Trolling, however, I find extremely upsetting, which is why I don't do it or participate in it.
Legitimate concerns/complaints can lead to meaningful discussion and are welcome here as far as I am concerned.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

But quite honestly I kind of wish more people would bring up their viewpoints in our thread rather then making another one. That way they could share their concerns and criticisms, and in exchange we give them our viewpoints. We usually like having conversations like that, as long as their civil of course.

[ciaweth]

I think if people want to find their way here, they will. Bringing the fight to this thread on purpose will just make Woo shut it down.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

ciaweth wrote...

I think if people want to find their way here, they will. Bringing the fight to this thread on purpose will just make Woo shut it down.

I don't want them to "fight". I just kind of wish they would explain their point of view in a respectful manner, then we would return the favor.

[ciaweth]

Garrus.

[kglaser]

ciaweth wrote...

Garrus.

THEM'S FIGHTIN' WORDS!!

[jtav]

Collider has promised that I won't be eaten, so these are some brief thoughts on Garrus.

-- Nothing that happened in ME mattered. I normally play Paragon and do my best to show him that policies and procedures matter. I tell him to arrest Saleon. So finding out that he's still indulging his vigilante streak feels like a slap in the face. He's still prone to being consumed by feelings of vengeance. While it's perhaps realistic that he would backslide, it leaves me feeling like I shouldn't have bothered.

--He's presented as the eternal sidekick. He'll always do better with Shepard than on his own. His crusade as Archangel, while admirable, seems to have accomplished very little until Shepard showed up. If he had been shown making more of a difference on Omega before I showed up, I think I would've liked it much more.

--He has very little dialogue in the second game and I don't feel like he got nearly enough character development. Off the top of my head, they could have expanded on his feelings that he's not a very good turian. As it stands, it feels like the developers feel like some very funny lines and the fact that he was in the first game should be enough. It's not for me.

-- I have no real issue with his romance. It's not really my thing because they feel so awkward in places but the romance scene is very good. I like that he's willing to try to work so hard at making this work.

I do think he has some very good lines in the sequel. I do love deadpan snarker characters.

Modifié par jtav, 21 août 2010 - 11:01 .

[ciaweth]

kglaser wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Garrus.

THEM'S FIGHTIN' WORDS!!

BALSAMIC FOREVAR U BUTTFACE

<3

Anyway, where was I?  Oh, right.  Garrus and turians.  I wonder if they have middle names. 

[kglaser]

A thought-provoking post, jtav...I want to digest it all.

But I wanted to quickly say I agree that he definitely could have used more character development in ME2, especially dialogue (and while we're at it, a whole bunch of people could have used more dialogue, even a few well-placed lines...Jack comes to mind first, but she's far from unique).

[kglaser]

ciaweth wrote...

kglaser wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Garrus.

THEM'S FIGHTIN' WORDS!!

BALSAMIC FOREVAR U BUTTFACE

<3

Anyway, where was I?  Oh, right.  Garrus and turians.  I wonder if they have middle names. 

THOUSAND ISLAND DRESSING!!!!
Oh, sorry, wrong argument.

[ciaweth]

jtav wrote...

Collider has promised that I won't be eaten, so these are some brief thoughts on Garrus.

<snip>

--He has very little dialogue in the second game and I don't feel like he got nearly enough character development. Off the top of my head, they could have expanded on his feelings that he's not a very good turian. As it stands, it feels like the developers feel like some very funny lines and the fact that he was in the first game should be enough. It's not for me.

We won't eat ya. 

I agree they could have let Garrus explain more about what the hell is going on in his head.  If my Shep had had her way, she'd have peppered him with questions.  Since he trusts her so much, he would have answered at least some of them, ya know?

Then again, I think everyone tends to feel that the character(s) they're curious about had too few lines, too little exploration of their personalities and situations.  It's natural for us to want to know more.

[Pacifien]

ciaweth wrote...
Then again, I think everyone tends to feel that the character(s) they're curious about had too few lines, too little exploration of their personalities and situations.  It's natural for us to want to know more.

I think Mordin is the only squadmate that came out okay in the dialogue department for the majority of people.

[Collider]

Pacifien wrote...

ciaweth wrote...
Then again, I think everyone tends to feel that the character(s) they're curious about had too few lines, too little exploration of their personalities and situations.  It's natural for us to want to know more.

I think Mordin is the only squadmate that came out okay in the dialogue department for the majority of people.

Yea he had the most amount of conversations and a clever rotation of varied "I'm busy" lines when the player has exhausted the conversations.

[kglaser]

I did appreciate their token attempt to ameliorate the "lack of dialogue" problem by having Kasumi say things to Shepard about the different squadmates/LIs.

[jtav]

The real trouble with the dialogue was the pacing. It's quite possible to exhaust everything a particular squaddie has to say less than halfway through the game. They don't actually have much less to say (except for Garrus and Tali) than the ME team, but it feels like they do.

[Collider]

That's probably true jtav. In ME1 the conversations are separated by the main missions, which are generally (if not always) longer than the missions in ME2. In ME1 by the time the squad mates have run out of conversations, it's pretty close to the end of the game already. I can imagine though, that it would be difficult to properly pace the conversation when the devs have to factor in the recruitment/loyalty mission thing.