@Cerrydd: That's fine. We all like different types of characters. I wasn't really trying to change anyone's mind. It would be like trying to change MainShep's mind about hating batarians, change Kai Leng's mind about hating aliens, or change my paranoid Sole Survivor's mind about Cerberus. It would probably never happen, but different character preferences are why the Mass Effect squad has such an awesome variety and why I can play a lot of different Shepards.
@Pacifien: Best friends forever? xD I just imagined my MainShep wearing an "I'm with Saren" t-shirt and Saren wearing an "I'm with crazy" t-shirt.
I agree about the final persuasion. Even though I don't like watching my favorite character kill himself, that scene is what made me like him in the first place. (I think Virmire started it, and Revelation made him my favorite for sure.) Now that you mention it, I'm not sure what Renegade Shepard would have done if he/she found Sovereign first, without knowing about the Reapers. Well, if it was one of my Shepards... probably "What an awesome ship! Let's check out the firepower on this thing!" right before "It talks! It talks! Voices in my head! Kill it with fire! No, nuke it from orbit - it's the only way to be safe!"
Calibrations: Garrus Love and Turian Discussion
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Chimervera
, juin 26 2010 03:45
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#9477
Posté 24 août 2010 - 04:23
Mr.BlazenGlazen
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I really didn't like saren either. I mean hes an awesome bad guy, which is why I don't like him. >=(.Cerrydd wrote...
Kim Shepard wrote...
Awesome, my posts are convincing more people to like Saren... like Sarendoctrination. The more people read pro-Saren stuff, they start to like him. xD
Ha, you'll never convert me into a believer. I will be anti-Saren until my death!
And since I'm still young, I will hate him for many years to come.
#9478
Posté 24 août 2010 - 04:25
Kim Shepard
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Wow, I think I forgot to include this in my post to Aricle... okay, I'll post it here.
I think those tubes do go into Saren's body, not just the armor. By the time of the final battle, a lot of him is synthetic. If you've read Retribution (or at least seen the cover), that's what it reminds me of. Sovereign gave him more and more implants gradually... but I'm still not completely sure why it gave him a geth arm. Why, Sovereign? Did he just wake up one day and not remember that it hadn't always been there, [spoiler] or did he stay awake for the whole thing like Grayson? [spoiler]
@Mr.BlazenGlazen: BioWare was successful then. I'm pretty sure they were going for "awesome bad guy." xD
I think those tubes do go into Saren's body, not just the armor. By the time of the final battle, a lot of him is synthetic. If you've read Retribution (or at least seen the cover), that's what it reminds me of. Sovereign gave him more and more implants gradually... but I'm still not completely sure why it gave him a geth arm. Why, Sovereign? Did he just wake up one day and not remember that it hadn't always been there, [spoiler] or did he stay awake for the whole thing like Grayson? [spoiler]
@Mr.BlazenGlazen: BioWare was successful then. I'm pretty sure they were going for "awesome bad guy." xD
#9479
Posté 24 août 2010 - 04:27
Pacifien
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Based on Retribution, I suspect the Reapers can get inside your head before you realize there are voices involved. In Saren's case, he had the ship for twenty years, but only really started pushing on his agenda by Eden Prime. Part of that I'm sure was waiting for a second intact beacon to surface, but some of that I think was Sovereign taking a very cautious approach in handling Saren. Could have been a couple years before Saren realized his ship was more than just a ship.Kim Shepard wrote...
Now that you mention it, I'm not sure what Renegade Shepard would have done if he/she found Sovereign first, without knowing about the Reapers. Well, if it was one of my Shepards... probably "What an awesome ship! Let's check out the firepower on this thing!" right before "It talks! It talks! Voices in my head! Kill it with fire! No, nuke it from orbit - it's the only way to be safe!"
#9480
Posté 24 août 2010 - 05:21
Kim Shepard
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It probably was several years before he realized that, and even longer before he found out what Sovereign really was and what it was planning. At some point though, he did set up that research base on Virmire because he thought Sovereign might be influencing him. Did the game ever say how long he was trying to study that? A timeline would be nice. I'd like to know if he was searching for things like the relay and the Conduit during those 20 years, or if he only knew that he needed them after he found the beacon. I would guess that part of those 20 years was spent on the other projects like the geth, krogan, rachni, and thorian.
#9481
Posté 24 août 2010 - 05:24
Aricle
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Talking to Rana Thanoptis on Virmire and her saying that her first case of indoctrination she saw was the person she replaced... chilling. I didn't think they had been on Virmire doing those experiments that long so I think the Sovereign/Nazera indoctrination goes quickly- at least for those not being 'cultivated'.
It makes sense that Sovereign would proceed carefully with Saren.. poor Saren was really trying to convince himself that his value to Sovereign would keep him safe.
Re: the tubes- looking for some armour data and found this picture of Garrus in Nihlus' armour. Here are the tubes again. Maybe they are an armour style? However, on Saren they look like part of his body.
ETA
I'd like a timeline too. It also seems like Cerberus and ExoGeni were dabbling in the rachni and husks and thorians, too. From the Cerberus p.o.v., probably to see if they could give humans an edge and for ExoGeni, profit margins. Strange bedfellows!
It makes sense that Sovereign would proceed carefully with Saren.. poor Saren was really trying to convince himself that his value to Sovereign would keep him safe.
Re: the tubes- looking for some armour data and found this picture of Garrus in Nihlus' armour. Here are the tubes again. Maybe they are an armour style? However, on Saren they look like part of his body.
ETA
I'd like a timeline too. It also seems like Cerberus and ExoGeni were dabbling in the rachni and husks and thorians, too. From the Cerberus p.o.v., probably to see if they could give humans an edge and for ExoGeni, profit margins. Strange bedfellows!
Modifié par Aricle, 24 août 2010 - 05:27 .
#9482
Posté 24 août 2010 - 05:27
PWENER
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Found a colored ver. of the Turian Female sketch I uploaded a few days ago. Figured I'd post it too.
lol
lol
#9483
Posté 24 août 2010 - 05:38
Aricle
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She's pretty. Very quarian in style of garment. Are you the artist?
#9484
Posté 24 août 2010 - 05:46
Kim Shepard
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I think I just answered our question about the tubes... Saren is wearing the exact same armor on the cover of Revelation, and there are no tubes there. D: (It also means he wears the same armor for 20 years. xD)
I'm guessing that because the process of indoctrination was so slow with Saren, his suspicions might have only started in the last year or two. It's hard to judge because we don't even know when he found out about the Reapers' plans, or anything about indoctrination. Shepard found out about everything after Saren already figured it out for himself - with only his own research to go by, that must have taken a long time. The way he said "No, Sovereign needs me!" was so sad. And when he said that the Council would never believe it... Shepard can understand that better than anyone. His own logic in combination with the indoctrination made him think there was no other way.
Yeah, ExoGeni and Binary Helix were the ones really behind those experiments. I think Saren just found out about them and took an interest in it (the fact that he was a shareholder for Binary Helix would have made that easier). Possibly because both the thorian and rachni queen's abilities involve mind-control?
@PWENER: I've always liked that female turian picture. I think the flowing cloth is a little impractical for battle, but it makes a great formal outfit that's still armor.
I'm guessing that because the process of indoctrination was so slow with Saren, his suspicions might have only started in the last year or two. It's hard to judge because we don't even know when he found out about the Reapers' plans, or anything about indoctrination. Shepard found out about everything after Saren already figured it out for himself - with only his own research to go by, that must have taken a long time. The way he said "No, Sovereign needs me!" was so sad. And when he said that the Council would never believe it... Shepard can understand that better than anyone. His own logic in combination with the indoctrination made him think there was no other way.
Yeah, ExoGeni and Binary Helix were the ones really behind those experiments. I think Saren just found out about them and took an interest in it (the fact that he was a shareholder for Binary Helix would have made that easier). Possibly because both the thorian and rachni queen's abilities involve mind-control?
@PWENER: I've always liked that female turian picture. I think the flowing cloth is a little impractical for battle, but it makes a great formal outfit that's still armor.
#9485
Posté 24 août 2010 - 05:54
PWENER
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Aricle wrote...
She's pretty. Very quarian in style of garment. Are you the artist?
I draw, but I can't take credit for this beauty.
#9486
Posté 24 août 2010 - 05:54
Mr.BlazenGlazen
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Lol, why does garrus look like hes from Tron with that armor?
#9487
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:04
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I can't figure out Saren's indoctrination. The signal that emanates from the Reaper seems to reduce people to gibbering idiots within a matter of days, yet the final boss fight with Saren kinda implies he hadn't been implanted until after Virmire. So how did he keep his sanity if he was only exposed to the signal style of indoctrination and how do you explain his biotics and all the metal on him? Yet if he was already implanted before Virmire why would he be researching indoctrination for fear it was affecting him? Of course it's affecting him if he let Sovereign implant him. And if he had doubts and implants both, why would the Reapers allow him to conduct that research in the first place? Unless Saren really is that strong willed, that he had implants and could still hide some of his thoughts from the Reapers, in which case 
. Heck, maybe the Reapers allowed him to do the research because that freedom alone might be enough to convince him that he still had free will, or because they were confident they could manipulate his research or his emotional response to it. This is starting to sound like the Matrix. Anyway, I am reposting something I put in the Clan V book spoiler thread earlier that pretty much sums up my thoughts on indoctrination.
*Retribution spoiler alert*
It seems like Reapers have three main ways they interact with organics.
1) Repurposing of dead bodies as they do with husks. This seems to imply that once a brain is "dead" it is no longer of great use to the Reapers as it is very difficult to revive or couldn't be correctly revived or something. This also explains why they just abandon Grayson when his body is dying. This implies there is something about the organic mind that Reapers can't replicate and find useful. All they seem to do with corpses is turn them into shock troopers and space zombies.
2) The "jamming signal" that seems to come from "inside your own head" that the farmers describe on Eden Prime. This doesn't seem to require any physical implants, but can still indoctrinate, and from the way the colonists describe it, it sounds quite painful. I would hazard this is the form of indoctrination that is most likely to turn people into mindless automatons as it seems sort of crude and unrefined. Ham-fisted if you will as it just bludgeons down a subject's mental resistance until they are utterly dominated. Thanoptis talks about how it can reduce people to gibbering idiots within a matter of days. This signal seems to just emanate from a Reaper even in the case of the derelict Reaper. I think this is the form of indoctrination Reapers likely use on the "masses," the ones they need to incapacitate but that they don't need to maintain their sanity and personality.
3) Implants. These seem to be reserved for people like Saren, people the Reapers want to influence without utterly crushing their mind. Implants seem to allow for more subtle manipulation, the ability to trick a person into thinking they want to go along with the Reapers. It seems like the process of directly attacking the mind and beating down it's defenses is what destroys the mind of the subject. It also physically weakens the Reapers in the subject's mind. This more subtle manipulation allows a person to keep their sanity longer and act as a convincing sleeper agent. It's probably why Saren could be indoctrinated for years and years without anybody noticing. The Reapers had convinced him that this was what he wanted and so they didn't have to force him to do anything and lower his capacity by doing so.
Anyway, that's just my two cents. Where do you think Saren might fit in with all that given how long he was around Sovereign?
. Heck, maybe the Reapers allowed him to do the research because that freedom alone might be enough to convince him that he still had free will, or because they were confident they could manipulate his research or his emotional response to it. This is starting to sound like the Matrix. Anyway, I am reposting something I put in the Clan V book spoiler thread earlier that pretty much sums up my thoughts on indoctrination.*Retribution spoiler alert*
It seems like Reapers have three main ways they interact with organics.
1) Repurposing of dead bodies as they do with husks. This seems to imply that once a brain is "dead" it is no longer of great use to the Reapers as it is very difficult to revive or couldn't be correctly revived or something. This also explains why they just abandon Grayson when his body is dying. This implies there is something about the organic mind that Reapers can't replicate and find useful. All they seem to do with corpses is turn them into shock troopers and space zombies.
2) The "jamming signal" that seems to come from "inside your own head" that the farmers describe on Eden Prime. This doesn't seem to require any physical implants, but can still indoctrinate, and from the way the colonists describe it, it sounds quite painful. I would hazard this is the form of indoctrination that is most likely to turn people into mindless automatons as it seems sort of crude and unrefined. Ham-fisted if you will as it just bludgeons down a subject's mental resistance until they are utterly dominated. Thanoptis talks about how it can reduce people to gibbering idiots within a matter of days. This signal seems to just emanate from a Reaper even in the case of the derelict Reaper. I think this is the form of indoctrination Reapers likely use on the "masses," the ones they need to incapacitate but that they don't need to maintain their sanity and personality.
3) Implants. These seem to be reserved for people like Saren, people the Reapers want to influence without utterly crushing their mind. Implants seem to allow for more subtle manipulation, the ability to trick a person into thinking they want to go along with the Reapers. It seems like the process of directly attacking the mind and beating down it's defenses is what destroys the mind of the subject. It also physically weakens the Reapers in the subject's mind. This more subtle manipulation allows a person to keep their sanity longer and act as a convincing sleeper agent. It's probably why Saren could be indoctrinated for years and years without anybody noticing. The Reapers had convinced him that this was what he wanted and so they didn't have to force him to do anything and lower his capacity by doing so.
Anyway, that's just my two cents. Where do you think Saren might fit in with all that given how long he was around Sovereign?
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 24 août 2010 - 06:12 .
#9488
Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:04
Alexine
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Aricle wrote...
It's funny at in ME1, he takes off the visor when he's wearing light armour, but in ME2 it's super glued to his head in the romance scene.
#9489
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:08
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Alexine wrote...
It's funny at in ME1, he takes off the visor when he's wearing light armour, but in ME2 it's super glued to his head in the romance scene.
Is this just when you stick a helmet on him or is that always the case when he is wearing light armor? I don't remember him not having the visor, but then I never put a helmet on him outside of worlds where we can't breathe without one.
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 24 août 2010 - 06:17 .
#9490
Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:21
This Is Delicious
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Aricle wrote...
found this picture of Garrus in Nihlus' armour...
Always loved that armour. Even though the colossus armour has better ratings, I keep him in this because its so cool looking.
Anyway, please excuse my shameless self promotion.
Don't worry it involves Garrus.
#9491
Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:26
Kim Shepard
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Well, he definitely had implants during and before Virmire, and a geth arm too. I think Sovereign was implanting him gradually, and probably thought that it didn't matter if Saren researched it or not - Sovereign could still influence him whether he found out the truth or not (as seen by his implants after Virmire and his "Sovereign gave me this to strengthen my resolve" speech), and Saren would still decide on his own that he needed to work with Sovereign if he was going to save organtic life. I really doubt that part was all Sovereign. Most of the time, he seemed just like himself with some subtle influence, like the "combination of organics and synthetics - the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither" part. If he really did manage to keep some things secret from Sovereign, then wow... he's even more strong-willed than I thought, and I already thought he had to be really strong-willed to [spoilers] go through what Grayson went through in Retribution. That whole time, I was just thinking about Saren and if he was awake like that. He wouldn't have gone that far just for the power. [/spoiler]
His biotics confuse me too. Retribution makes it sound like it's an effect of Reaper implants, and the fact that he doesn't use any biotics in Revelation seems to support that idea, but I still don't know
His biotics confuse me too. Retribution makes it sound like it's an effect of Reaper implants, and the fact that he doesn't use any biotics in Revelation seems to support that idea, but I still don't know
Spoiler
Like I said before, Saren already had implants pre-Sovereign too, in his jaw/mandibles and possibly cybernetic eyes like TIM, but we don't know if that was from a battle injury or not. If he's the type who likes synthetic enhancements, that would have made it easier for Sovereign to influence him.
#9492
Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:29
This Is Delicious
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What I don't get is that its obvious Saren has received multiple synthetic enhancements and no one seems to care.
#9493
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Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:32
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This Is Delicious wrote...
What I don't get is that its obvious Saren has received multiple synthetic enhancements and no one seems to care.
Well, cybernetic replacements are pretty standard if we use Shep and Garrus as an example so I don't think anybody would care about seeing metal bits and pieces. Odd behavior coupled with said bits and pieces is what would start alarm bells ringing.
#9494
Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:33
Alexine
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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Alexine wrote...
It's funny at in ME1, he takes off the visor when he's wearing light armour, but in ME2 it's super glued to his head in the romance scene.
Is this just when you stick a helmet on him or is that always the case when he is wearing light armor? I don't remember him not having the visor, but then I never put a helmet on him outside of worlds where we can't breathe without one.
When he wears medium armour, he wears a helmet that covers everything, and the helmet cover is opaque, so you can't see if he's wearing the helmet or not. But for light, he just wears that fringer coverer helmet.
#9495
Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:36
This Is Delicious
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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
This Is Delicious wrote...
What I don't get is that its obvious Saren has received multiple synthetic enhancements and no one seems to care.
Well, cybernetic replacements are pretty standard if we use Shep and Garrus as an example so I don't think anybody would care about seeing metal bits and pieces. Odd behavior coupled with said bits and pieces is what would start alarm bells ringing.
Well sure, some weird eyes here or there. Maybe a metal skin graph for your face, but, I mean...I thought Saren was a robot the first time I saw him. Like, a fully fledged android.
#9496
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Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:40
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Kim Shepard wrote...
What's interesting is that the indoctrination he seems to be researching on Virmire is the "jamming signal" type of indoctrination. How does he ride around on Sovereign for years without that affecting him? It doesn't seem like a Repear can tailor that signal to an individual, or we've seen no evidence of that anyway. Do you think the implants offer some kind of immunity or enhanced resistance to that other type of indoctrination? If so, Benezia was probably implanted too or else only very rarely aboard or around Sovereign.
*more spoilers*
Another thing that's interesting is that Grayson looked like he could indoctrinate those around him. See what happens to Kahlee on page 326. It seems like the implants actually allow a person to indoctrinate other persons so maybe Saren could indoctrinate Benezia just by her being around him. Maybe she never had to get near Sovereign at all.
#9497
Posté 24 août 2010 - 06:50
Alexine
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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Kim Shepard wrote...
What's interesting is that the indoctrination he seems to be researching on Virmire is the "jamming signal" type of indoctrination. How does he ride around on Sovereign for years without that affecting him? It doesn't seem like a Repear can tailor that signal to an individual, or we've seen no evidence of that anyway. Do you think the implants offer some kind of immunity or enhanced resistance to that other type of indoctrination? If so, Benezia was probably implanted too or else only very rarely aboard or around Sovereign.
*more spoilers*
Another thing that's interesting is that Grayson looked like he could indoctrinate those around him. See what happens to Kahlee on page 326. It seems like the implants actually allow a person to indoctrinate other persons so maybe Saren could indoctrinate Benezia just by her being around him. Maybe she never had to get near Sovereign at all.
But wasn't Benezia on Sovereign at the beginning of ME? I think she was already on board Sovereign to stop Saren from going his path, but in the end she didn't realise until it was too late that it was Sovereign, not Saren entirely who manipulates people.
#9498
Posté 24 août 2010 - 07:00
Kim Shepard
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Saren already had implants before Sovereign for whatever reason, so they probably assumed it was normal for him. Some armor actually does have tubes going through it too - just because we know the truth about them doesn't mean anyone in-game would. It was strange that Nihlus didn't comment on the arm though, at least to ask when his friend lost his arm in battle (which the Mass Effect characters would probably assume), but maybe Nihlus already saw him like that before and Saren came up with an explanation then. For someone who's been through as many tough battles as Saren, it wouldn't be hard to make up a story that he was injured and something needed to be replaced.
I think Saren would have studied the "jamming signal" more than anything else just because it's easier. He was probably the only person with implants, but anyone near Sovereign could be indoctrinated the other way. That might have been how he found out that his form of indoctrination was different, because they were showing effects much sooner when he wasn't, so maybe the implants do offer some sort of protection from that. Does Saren ever talk about a "jamming signal" or like Benezia said, metal scraping against metal? For Saren, it seems more like Sovereign "speaks" to him. Maybe the implants help him understand Sovereign, where anyone else would just hear noise that slowly drives them insane.
Benezia was on Sovereign after Eden Prime. To me, it sounded like Saren was mostly doing the indoctrinating while she still felt the effects of Sovereign. I think the metal scraping sounds were from Sovereign, but she definitely made it sound like it was Saren's voice whispering and telling her to do stuff like find the relay. She probably didn't join until much later, and didn't spend a lot of time on Sovereign. By that point, Saren might have known to keep important people away from Sovereign so they don't feel the effects enough to make them completely useless.
All this discussion is awesome.
So many things I wouldn't have thought about until they're brought up here.
I think Saren would have studied the "jamming signal" more than anything else just because it's easier. He was probably the only person with implants, but anyone near Sovereign could be indoctrinated the other way. That might have been how he found out that his form of indoctrination was different, because they were showing effects much sooner when he wasn't, so maybe the implants do offer some sort of protection from that. Does Saren ever talk about a "jamming signal" or like Benezia said, metal scraping against metal? For Saren, it seems more like Sovereign "speaks" to him. Maybe the implants help him understand Sovereign, where anyone else would just hear noise that slowly drives them insane.
Benezia was on Sovereign after Eden Prime. To me, it sounded like Saren was mostly doing the indoctrinating while she still felt the effects of Sovereign. I think the metal scraping sounds were from Sovereign, but she definitely made it sound like it was Saren's voice whispering and telling her to do stuff like find the relay. She probably didn't join until much later, and didn't spend a lot of time on Sovereign. By that point, Saren might have known to keep important people away from Sovereign so they don't feel the effects enough to make them completely useless.
All this discussion is awesome.
So many things I wouldn't have thought about until they're brought up here.
#9499
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Posté 24 août 2010 - 07:01
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@Alexine
I think she was aboard Sovereign some, but from what Thanoptis said about the signal emanating from the ship, it appears capable of overpowering you in a matter of days. Even if we go with a very liberal interpretation and say that Benezia was especially resistant since she is a Matriarch, I still don't think she could last more than a few months at most exposed to Sovereign at full blast. This is why I say I think she was either implanted (but then her dialog on Noveria makes less sense) or she wasn't exposed to Sovereign that much. And when she talks about indoctrination on Noveria she talks about Saren's voice whispering in her mind and her mind "being filled with his light." She seems more focused on Saren than Sovereign.
Strangely, it's the other way around with Shiala. She focuses on Sovereign more than Saren, but she also said she believed in Benezia and that was why she chose to follow. The other handmaidens were given a choice and some left so I doubt they were indoctrinated at that stage. And Shiala might have hitched a ride on Sovereign to Noveria, but it might have been the only time she was directly exposed to the thing. That might explain the short term indoctrination that she was able to more or less completely brush off later. She has more issues with lingering thorian problems than with lingering indoctrination. I don't think Benezia has been riding around on Sovereign with Saren for twenty years. Heck, I don't even think Saren rides around on it that much. They still have pretenses to keep up, him as a Spectre and her as a Matriarch. Saren being able to indoctrinate on his lonesome makes a lot of sense to me.
I think she was aboard Sovereign some, but from what Thanoptis said about the signal emanating from the ship, it appears capable of overpowering you in a matter of days. Even if we go with a very liberal interpretation and say that Benezia was especially resistant since she is a Matriarch, I still don't think she could last more than a few months at most exposed to Sovereign at full blast. This is why I say I think she was either implanted (but then her dialog on Noveria makes less sense) or she wasn't exposed to Sovereign that much. And when she talks about indoctrination on Noveria she talks about Saren's voice whispering in her mind and her mind "being filled with his light." She seems more focused on Saren than Sovereign.
Strangely, it's the other way around with Shiala. She focuses on Sovereign more than Saren, but she also said she believed in Benezia and that was why she chose to follow. The other handmaidens were given a choice and some left so I doubt they were indoctrinated at that stage. And Shiala might have hitched a ride on Sovereign to Noveria, but it might have been the only time she was directly exposed to the thing. That might explain the short term indoctrination that she was able to more or less completely brush off later. She has more issues with lingering thorian problems than with lingering indoctrination. I don't think Benezia has been riding around on Sovereign with Saren for twenty years. Heck, I don't even think Saren rides around on it that much. They still have pretenses to keep up, him as a Spectre and her as a Matriarch. Saren being able to indoctrinate on his lonesome makes a lot of sense to me.
#9500
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Posté 24 août 2010 - 07:09
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Kim Shepard wrote...
All this discussion is awesome.
And I was just thinking how awesome it is that this is the "turian discussion" thread because then we can discuss all kinds of tangentially related things by going "but look, there's a turian!" We can talk about the Council because there's a turian. We can talk about the Reapers because Saren is a turian. We can talk about human politics because it's largely shaped by the First Contact War with turians, and it just goes on and on. I love that.
@ This Is Delicious
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to ignore your video. I thought it was funny. We just get caught up in discussion here sometimes.
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 24 août 2010 - 07:13 .
