29107 réponses à ce sujet

[Kim Shepard]

...It wasn't until I read Benezia's line about Saren's whispers and her mind "being filled with his light" in your post that I realized how jealous MainShep would have been right there. xD One of those "I know this is completely foolish, but that's just how I feel anyway" moments for her.

I agree, Saren wouldn't ride around on Sovereign all the time, since it would draw a lot of attention to himself to just "park" Sovereign at the Citadel docking bay, and like you said, the others would have been hardly exposed to it at all. Shiala might have been more focused on Sovereign than on Saren because that short time on Sovereign was enough to give off some kind of effect, while she probably didn't interact much with Saren (only enough to know that he was charismatic and dangerous, which you can basically figure out from one conversation with the guy) and he would have no reason to indoctrinate her.

I like the new thread title too. Now I can talk about Saren all I want, and it isn't off-topic. As an added bonus, videos of the dancing turian are totally on-topic.

[Pedpickle]

I'm not sure if I remember 100% accurately, but wasn't Saren going to be cautious when dealing with what turned out to be Sovereign when that Dr. Whats-his-face went loopy? (in the end of revelation)



Maybe for the majority of those 20 years he sent others to poke about sovereign, and when he deemed it safe enough he went there himself.

Or maybe he was like just within distance so that sovereign had built up the indoctrination over time.



I dunno. : >

I figured for once I'd spit in my two-cents.

[Chimervera]

Maybe Sovereign can change the intensity of the indoctrination 'signal'. For example, maybe it was using a more forceful signal on Eden Prime to distract (or drive insane) any who might oppose Saren and the geth, whereas it used a more subtle kind of signal the rest of the time. That would allow characters like Saren and Benezia to spend some amount of time on Sovereign without being driven insane like those salarians on Virmire or that scientist on Eden Prime.



From memory, the way Saren words his description of the indoctrination process it sounds like he wasn't aware of it until he saw it affecting others, whereas other characters described it as something like a jamming signal. I doubt he wouldn't have noticed that, since from the way it was described on Eden Prime, it would be pretty hard to ignore.



Does Saren also state that Sovereign's indoctrination is more subtle to those it finds useful? Again, from memory, but that would indicate that different levels can be used on different beings, perhaps even at the same time.



@Raga: It sounds similar, but I don't think it's the same. What happened to Benezia sounded more like she was completely indoctrinated, apart from one piece of her mind that was basically 'asleep' to escape detection and would only 'wake' during certain circumstances - after all, after that piece of her mind is revealed, it quickly becomes indoctrinated as well/overpowered by the indoctrinated part. The rest of her mind seemed to be unaware of this piece since she had sealed it away before full indoctrination, so she wouldn't have had the same 'being unable to control my own body' experience that Grayson had. [spoilers]Grayson was completely aware of being unable to control himself until fully indoctrinated, whereas Benezia was the opposite[/spoilers]



I could be forgetting something though, since I don't have access to ME1 or Youtube right now.

[Nilfalasiel]

I think it's plausible that Sovereign would be able to modulate its indoctrination signal depending on who it was trying to indoctrinate. In the case of people it didn't need, it just turned them to gibbering zombies (eg. salarians on Virmire), but in the case of Benezia and especially Saren, it probably made it a lot more gradual, because it knew they could help it. That could be why Saren kept saying that he wasn't indoctrinated: by comparison with the other cases he saw around him, he probably felt relatively safe (except for the sneaking suspicion that it was all too good to be true that made him set up the research base on Virmire).

I saw Saren's teeth being mentioned: somehow, I was always under the impression that those weren't his teeth you could see on the sides of his face, but more implants. They seem to go all the way through his cheeks.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 24 août 2010 - 08:02 .

[JulianP]

Aricle wrote...


As far as the Charles Saracino conversation, Shepard met up with Mr. Saracino last night as it happens and I made a vid. I'll post a link when it's uploaded. Garrus does have a lot to say. I'm glad I learned that he had a lot to say, who to bring with him to have him talk and remembered to do it, to get that result. There are so many little notes to self about different things to look for in these games floating around here!

Oh goody!  Thanks for doing it; in my case it always feels like that sort of thing invariably takes longer than it looks.  Do not disappoint us! 

[Kim Shepard]

I definitely think Saren was being cautious. He probably had people studying Sovereign for quite some time, since he killed the guy who had done all the reasearch and didn't know much about Sovereign in the beginning. Saren must have seen Sovereign's effect on the people who worked near it, but something would have made him decide to get close to it himself. Maybe short visits near Sovereign in the beginning made him feel drawn to it, or something like that. I'm sure he wouldn't just start riding around on it before knowing what it does, and by then, he would have gone through a few teams because the influence drove them insane.

This is one of the reasons why I'd like to see a timeline. It would be awesome if Shepard could find some of Saren's research in ME3. After all that time studying Sovereign, Saren would have had more information than anyone about the Reapers, even TIM.

I agree about Saren's indoctrination abilities being more controlled. It does sound a lot like

Spoiler

Grayson talking to Kahlee on page 326. And when I looked back on that, I think that might have been how Sovereign convinced him to take on the implants in the first place. Sovereign probably gave Saren that same speech - it sounds just like the stuff we heard in ME1.

I'm only the Revelation expert on the scenes involving Saren, by the way. xD I read those parts first, more than once, and basically skimmed the rest.

Saren does comment that it was more subtle with him. I assumed it was because of the implants, but I wouldn't put it past a super powerful machine race to put out different signals to different people at the same time (since I doubt Saren would have been alone with Sovereign without his researchers in the beginning). Who knows, maybe even stronger people like Saren respond a little differently. I did think that Sovereign's signal was something automatic, but there isn't much that we know for sure about the Reapers yet. The only thing I can guess is that Saren was drawn to Sovereign enough that the fear of losing his mind like the others wouldn't keep him away.

About Saren's teeth, I think you can see both the teeth and implants. There are some pieces that look like they connect from the jaw/mandibles with the obvious implants into the faceplates right above them. In Aricle's second screenshot, the implants are even more visible from that angle. I think a side-view shows the teeth better, but I don't have any images to post. (Poor guy, the more I look at those implants, the more it seems like they're holding his face together.)

@Ragabul: I think Sovereign controlling Saren in the final battle can all be explained with Harbinger's favorite phrase - "Assuming direct control!" That's what it looked like to me, anyway. Reaper glow, incineration, and all.

[Collider]

This is why I love the Garrus thread.

[Kim Shepard]

Collider wrote...

This is why I love the Garrus thread.

Me too. And that post above is probably the longest wall of text I have ever wrote on the forums. Saren would be proud. (Or maybe not. He's the one who did all of that awesome stuff, I just wrote a few paragraphs about it. xD)

@Ragabul: I wonder if that weakens Harbinger too. It's just not around for Shepard to see the effects of destroying the possessed Collectors.

[Chimervera]

Maybe Sovereign used a more subtle indoctrination on the scientists too, so as not to raise suspicions? The reapers are patient, so Sovereign would likely have waited until it knew more about their employer. That way, if it was someone important, Sovereign would likely have been careful enough not to over-indoctrinate the scientists until their employer (i.e. Saren) could be indoctrinated or just convinced that Sovereign could be used or controlled.



Also, Sovereigns "direct control" glow was red, Harbinger's was orange, does that mean we'll see yellow next? Maybe we'll see a reaper rainbow! XD

[Kim Shepard]

That could be possible. I hope we find out more about indoctrination in ME3 (and we should, since it's the last of the series). Different Reapers even seem to have their own way of doing things, so that makes it harder to figure out. [spoilers] I might have missed it, but did Retribution ever say which Reaper was controlling Grayson?[/spoilers] And a Reaper rainbow would be awesome. It would be the most colorful battlefield ever if Shepard had to fight all of the possessed at once.

Yeah, Harbinger releasing control before they die probably protects him from that. Sovereign must have been distracted with all of the Citadel fleets attacking (not that it showed... at all). It could be the difference between "shields down" and "got out of there just in time."

I can't remember about that scene from Horizon. Good luck finding the video.

[Kim Shepard]

I wonder if Harbinger is controlling them through the Collector General like the way Sovereign controlled Benezia through Saren. But Sovereign didn't assume control of anyone other than Saren. Maybe it's the genetic modifications, and all of them have implants? We want answers. xD

And about the spoiler stuff - yeah, that's what I thought.

[Nilfalasiel]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Well with the Collector drones, who knows, but if you notice Harbinger makes a point of pulling out of the Collector general guy who is operating the controls before the explosion/EMP burst hits at the Collector base.  (Yes, I know, yet another accidental innuendo.)  Now that could mean nothing, of course, as there is no reason to hang around when everything is about to die, but it might also mean "I'm avoiding an unneeded owey here."  I also thought it odd that the game makes a point of showing us that Collector in the control box anyway.  It is built differently than the other Collectors and if memory serves when we first see Harbinger take over a drone on Horizon, it actually first takes over the Collector general and THEN it takes over a drone.  Am I making that up?  Hang on, I'm off to dig around on youtube now.

This is consistent with the fact that you were able to kill Sovereign by killing the controlled Saren: if the Reaper is only using one intermediary (Saren or the Collector General), it seems to be somehow vulnerable to damage, which would be why Harbinger pulls out before the Collector General goes boom. However, when he uses the Collector General to take control of a drone, killing the drone doesn't damage Harbinger in any way.

And this is why you don't damage Sovereign by killing Benezia, who was being controlled via Saren.

I also feel kinda sorry for the Collector General in that last pre-boom shot...

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 24 août 2010 - 09:31 .

[Kim Shepard]

That would make sense. Poor Collector General... in the end, he looked all relieved that he was free of the indoctrination, right until he realized that he got freed just before he would die. He is like Saren. xD

And speaking of Saren, I've been staring at close-up screenshots of his face for a while. Some of them clearly show where each section of the implants connects to the next. D: Now I really want to know why he got those. It'll probably be sad though.

[Alexine]

Honestly, I don't really want to dig too deep into Saren that it turns into his life story in minute detail. A lot of series do this, and it ruined my interpretation of the character. Not to mention, it wouldn't do Saren any justice.

[Sialater]

Good lord! I am too tired to wade through Walls o' Text today. ~faceplants on desk~

[Kim Shepard]

Long story short, we talked about Saren and indoctrination. xD

I'd definitely like to find out more information about Saren, and that's how I always feel about my favorite characters. I always want to know how they became who they are, probably because that's such a big thing when I create characters. Even if we don't find out more, I'm just really glad we got Revelation. For all the times I've wanted to know more about a character's past, this is one of the few times I actually got to know more. BioWare seems to be really good about that - we're even going to find out TIM's history from the new comics (whenever they're coming out, I haven't seen a release date anywhere). The indoctrination stuff is very important to the plot, so I'm hoping that we'll at least get enough information to figure it out for ourselves.

About the extra stuff, his brother, the First Contact War, his implants... it's like TIM says in Retribution (don't worry, this part isn't a spoiler). He talks about telling an intricate lie, and how most people will question every little thing that doesn't make sense. The intelligent do that too, but they fill in the blanks themselves with what makes sense in their mind. That's what we're trying to do, fill in the blanks. But sometimes the stuff I fill in the blanks with would be worse than what really happened... I came up with some of my own ideas about Saren's past, but I'd like to know if they're true, or even possible. I had assumed that he was a biotic before Sovereign, but Revelation seems to suggest not.

[J4N3_M3]

I am back!!!!! xD And now I have to catch up on I don't know how many pages. I missed Garrus!!!! And all of your walls of text. And before Woo shows up and says I am using the thread as chat, no I am not! Garrus all the way. Showing my support as always.