29107 réponses à ce sujet

[Kim Shepard]

Well, if you missed the walls of text, you'll enjoy reading the last several pages. xD The most recent stuff is about Saren, and farther back there's Garrus romance stuff that I never completely caught up on.

[REMspace]

Saren is certainly a charismatic figure in the Mass Effect Universe. In the first Mass Effect knew little about him. If there's something about Saren in Retribution, I think it would be interesting.



I have not read Retribution, I'm waiting for the Italian publication.

[General Ashous]

There are only a few references of Saren in Retribution but the main story of Sarenn is Revelation. I think Saren has been the best villain in the ME series so far aside from Soverign. I liked his charisma and I was saddened by his suicide. I like it how he says thank you at the end, I think he also should have apologised but the thank you bit really hit me hard.

[Aricle]

Kim Shepard wrote...
Benezia was on Sovereign after Eden Prime. To me, it sounded like Saren was mostly doing the indoctrinating while she still felt the effects of Sovereign. I think the metal scraping sounds were from Sovereign, but she definitely made it sound like it was Saren's voice whispering and telling her to do stuff like find the relay. She probably didn't join until much later, and didn't spend a lot of time on Sovereign. By that point, Saren might have known to keep important people away from Sovereign so they don't feel the effects enough to make them completely useless.

All this discussion is awesome. So many things I wouldn't have thought about until they're brought up here.

This is awesome indeed! I haven't thought much about Saren outside of his part in the story/books... this thread is great that it can encompass anything that has bearing on turians and run with it.

Remember the salarian indoctrinated on Virmire? They kept talking about the whispering, too. In that context, Garrus' 'default' comment of 'Saren's experiments must be stopped!' is perfect. I would look at the salarians then time it to interact with Garrus when I knew that this comment would be his next remark. It adds to the immersion and to what would happen if I were there- I'd look at him and he'd respond with that remark. Good stuff.

Also: the relay 'monument' on the Citadel- Kaidan asks if anyone else hears it humming  and says he feels it as a tingle in the back of his teeth.

[JulianP]

Yes, the Saren "thank you" kind of caught me by surprise. Pretty big of him given his attitude towards humans. It all made me wonder how much of his famed ruthlessness and deviousness was really him and when he started to go wrong.

[JulianP]

Hey, on a totally different topic... Is it just my imagination / the lighting, or does Executor Pallin have extra long, extra angular mandibles?



Too bad we don't get to talk to him more. Sure, he wasn't so keen on humans, but he didn't seem unreasonable either, and I wanted a more "agree" option about Spectres.

[Kim Shepard]

There are only a few references to Saren in Retribution, but it deals a lot with the process and effects of indoctrination, so it all makes me think back to Saren and ME1. It's kind of sad to think of Saren when reading those scenes though. It'll make the whole thing go from "O_O" to "D:" really fast.

I'll have to watch for that Kaidan line in my next playthrough, Aricle. I've never heard it before. It's strange how the indoctrination and Reaper signals seem to have different effects on different people, but the reactions are still close enough to be connected somehow. (Somehow... Saren probably had it figured out.) And yeah, I remember that scene with the salarian - in my first playthrough, I made Shepard let him out and then he attacked. xD

I liked Saren's last words too. "Goodbye, Shepard. Thank you." From Revelation, it's obvious that Anderson was right about Saren hating humans, but he does have standards, like he didn't think anyone deserved the kind of torture that batarian was planning, not even a human. By the way he talked to Shepard in ME1, I would not have that he hates Shepard. They talk almost like they've met before, and Shepard can get through the whole game never sounding like he/she hates Saren, which worked really well for my MainShep. Lucky for her playthrough, liking Saren can actually be canon - telling Anderson that what he did at the factory was a good idea, saying that she doesn't want him killed, and Paragoning him in both conversations really gives that effect.

About the mandibles, some turians do have them in slightly different shapes and sizes. I don't remember Pallin's exactly.

[General Ashous]

You see I too believe that he does hate humans but he won't go so far as to eradicate them. I believe that was the effects of Soverign's indoctrination. He most likely worked out that he would be submitted to indoctrination when he saw the effects on Eden and Dr Qian. Unfortunatly, he didn't know how to combat it. I also believe that Saren does not hate Shepard and vice versa but Shepard wants to stop Saren while Saren doesn't like how humanity is consantly being thrown bones.

[Kim Shepard]

Saren does say that he went along with Sovereign's plan because he thought it was the only way to save organic life. He saw how powerful they were, and he believed that submission was preferable to extinction. From the last page of Revelation, it sounds like what he originally wanted, before he knew that Sovereign was more than just a powerful alien ship, was that he wanted to make humanity and the Council to pay for what happened in the First Contact War, and for the turians to be in control so something like that wouldn't happen again. (I didn't realize it until I read that page again, but he does sound like he resents the Council for making turians make reparations to humans after the war.) So it's true, he didn't want to eliminate humanity.

Technically, Shepard can hate Saren (I don't like choosing those options), depending on how the character is played. I didn't see any real hate from Saren against Shepard though. He and Shepard both believed that they needed to stop each other for their own plan to work, but if Saren really did hate Shepard, he wouldn't have asked Shepard to join him. My MainShep felt so bad about turning him down, but she knew it had to be done and she got through to him in the end. She still feels like she failed to save him though. She helped set him free, but she couldn't help him survive.

Saren was suspicious about the indoctrination, but it was so gradual, and the effects were so different from what he saw in the others, that he didn't think he had to fight it. He thought that his usefulness to Sovereign alone would save him from the kind of indoctrination that would take over him completely. Until Shepard pointed it out, he hadn't realized that it already happened.

[Sialater]

That's the point of indoctrination. It's insidious.

[Kim Shepard]

Exactly. I don't think Saren had ever seen that form of indoctrination before, the kind that happens gradually over a long period of time. He saw the people being driven insane by Sovereign's signal, and because it made them useless, he thought Sovereign wouldn't do that to him because it needed him. Unfortunately, it didn't completely work out that way.

[Giggles_Manically]

I thought Saren just wanted revenge?

Not to put turians in power, like TIM wants with Cerberus.



Also I am really excited for the Liara DLC, since I hope that Garrus gets some more lines, and not be completely silent.

[kglaser]

Saren as portrayed in "Revelation" is just about the most awesome villain I've ever seen, period. Highly impressive that anyone could be so completely evil. Love it!!

And sorry for topic change, but why didn't Chellick thank me after I helped him? It's weird.

[Kim Shepard]

Like I said, he wanted both.

the last page of Revelation said...

Once he unleashed that power, everything would be forever changed. Never again would turians be forced to bow before the will of the Council, as they had when they'd been commanded to make reparations for the First Contact War. At long last there would be a reckoning for the Alliance. Humanity would learn its place, along with every other species that paid homage to the Citadel.

Anyone else get the idea that if TIM was a turian and Cerberus was a pro-turian organization, Saren would join in a heartbeat? xD

[Kim Shepard]

kglaser wrote...

Saren as portrayed in "Revelation" is just about the most awesome villain I've ever seen, period. Highly impressive that anyone could be so completely evil. Love it!!

And sorry for topic change, but why didn't Chellick thank me after I helped him? It's weird.

I don't think he's completely evil. I think that batarian he tortured is completely evil, unless we just consider people like him to be in a completely different territory of evil. Saren is what I like to call Even Evil Has Standards, or the most awesome kind of evil in my opinion. xD Revelation was what made Saren my favorite Mass Effect character, and among my favorite characters of all time.

I have no idea for Chellick. MainShep helped him, but that was so long ago. MaleShep messed up his investigation, so obviously no thanks there.

[kglaser]

With the Chellick thing, it's just unusual for a typical quest where you go back and tell the person you finished whatever, and they reward or at least thank you. When you finish his quest, the game just automatically marks it "complete" and then when you go to Chellick's office, he just says either "good to see you" or "get out of my office" (depending on what you did). Did BW run out of time there or something?

[Bugsie]

I never bought the act that Saren was completely evil either, the bad guy yes, but not evil. His motivations for doing what he did driven by his obvious displeasure at the outcome of the First Contact War as you said Kim (was it my imagaination or did he mention a brother? I don't have Revelations with me to refer too). He used his status as a Spectre to further that agenda and find Sovereign. If anything Revelations pointed out to me how much freedom the council has given Spectres to supposedly do their job (and why the likes of Garrus's father disliked Spectres in general).

[Timerider42]

I think Saren in the game could be seen as a bad guy but he was doing what he thought was necessary to protect the galaxy.

Saren in the book on the other hand, was literally unbelievably evil, like he was so orphan-punchingly evil it didn't seem realistic. He would constantly be killing and torturing people to get some small piece of information. (i.e. the hospital scene)

Modifié par Timerider42, 25 août 2010 - 02:59 .

[FsDxRAGE]

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[Kim Shepard]

Another wall of text, mostly about Saren. xD

@kglaser: That's strange. Chellick did at least say something to my MainShep. That line Ragabul posted sounds familiar, which makes sense because MainShep bought the guns just like he told her to. Did you kill the krogan and his guys? That'll make him not want to talk. He sounded pretty mad at my MaleShep right after he did that though.

@Ragabul: I agree. About the Reapers, Saren was doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. I understand why he felt like he couldn't go to the Council - just look at what happened when Shepard tried to tell them. Now I've been thinking about what my Shepards might have done if they had found Sovereign first, and what everyone else's Shepards would have done. I've seen people say that what Saren tried to do was foolish or cowardly, but really, what would they have done? I expect the main answer would be "destroy Sovereign", but how? Before they even knew what if was (meta-gaming perspective)? After they figured it out, and the indoctrination process had already started? Nothing could damage Sovereign before its shields were down anyway. I keep trying to think of a solution that Saren could have used, but I can't think of anything that would have worked. Maybe if there was anyone he trusted anyone enough to tell, they could have got him out of there before he was too far gone if they noticed something different about him, if he didn't lie about all the new implants and the geth arm (because he didn't seem to be "too far gone" until after Virmire), but what could they have done? It looks like he had no options. What Shepard did only worked because destroying Saren's Reaper-controlled body shut Sovereign's shields down long enough for the fleet to attack. And now Shepard has to destroy all the Reapers in ME3... when Shepard has only destroyed one before. o_o;

@Buggirl: Yeah, Saren's brother was killed in the First Contact War. I assume it was his older brother, since Saren was pretty young at the time, but I don't think it ever said. (I've tried a few times to figure out how old Saren was during the war, and I keep coming up with different ages. He was definitely in his teen years, old enough to be in the war, but I doubt his brother could have been younger.) It never said if Saren was in the war either.

@Timerider42: I didn't think Saren was that bad in the book, and I've read over all of the scenes he was in several times. A lot of his decisions reminded me of a Renegade Shepard. In the hospital scene you mentioned, Saren didn't torture her. He did wake her up to get information when she was in a lot of pain from her injuries, which were so severe that it almost seemed like a mercy killing when he let her die. He tortured the batarian, but the batarian would have done worse to that human woman if Saren (or a krogan bodyguard) hadn't stepped in. Of course, everyone has their own opinions about how evil those actions are. Saren wouldn't punch some orphan kid though - he always has a reason for what he does, and there's no reason for it. Besides, that sort of thing would just make him look bad, which is exactly what he doesn't want. And it was sompletely realistic. I'm not sure why so many people think he was out of character, especially with the extra Cerberus news information that shows how brutal the turian military is.

[Kim Shepard]

I totally understand Saren's hate for humans. That sort of thing happens after a war when people's family members were killed by the other side. We might not agree with it, but it's very realistic. My MainShep feels the same way about batarians for killing her family, so she really knows how Saren feels, even though she could be part of his human hate (but like I've said before, he doesn't act like he hates Shepard). And I agree that how the turians responded to humans coming through the relay made sense, especially after what happened with the rachni. What exactly did Ashley say about Shanxi? I thought I went through all of the conversations with her, but I don't remember anything really bad. I remember she talked about her grandfather's surrender.

What Saren said to the batarian sounded too harsh for him to just think of it as a waste. "You disgust me. You wanted to torture an innocent victim for your own pleasure. You sick bastard." He really did sound like he hated the guy's methods. I'm not sure if feeling sorry for her would be completely accurate either... the way I saw it, it was more like disgust at people who would do something like that, like he's probably seen a lot of it during all his years as a Spectre. It's hard to explain. It made me think of one of my Shepards - a guy who's seen too much, and he's not at all surprised by it, but people like that still disgust him. (My Earthborn Ruthless Renegon. xD)

Revelation takes place 8 years after the First Contact War, right? And that would make ME1 22 years after? So yeah, that's a long time to change, and there were a lot of big things happening in his life. People can change a lot in just a year or two. Look at Liara, she changed more in two years than Saren did in two decades.

My poor MainShep. Saren finally asks her to do something with him, and she has to turn him down. xD I can just imagine his shock. "Okay, let's get back to the ship-- wait, did you just turn me down? Huh. I miss the Shepard who used to do everything I said."

[Homebound]

Garrus needs to have a fridge full of beer in his weapons room. And it should come out of the wall.

[Pedpickle]

Just_mike wrote...

Garrus needs to have a fridge full of beer in his weapons room. And it should come out of the wall.

I bet it's there and he hides it everytime someone visits him. ^.^
That must be what he does when he's "calibrating". xD

Modifié par Pedpickle, 25 août 2010 - 06:19 .