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[Tootles FTW]

silentstephi wrote...

Yea there were a few interrupts that shot by me and I was like WAIT I WANTED TO TRY doh.
Sad that I didn't see any Renegade interrupts. Don't get soft on me BW!

...
*rereads last statement*
Er, right.
Night folks

I think this was how I missed it on my renegade playthrough (the only character where I romanced Liara in ME1).  I didn't hit any of the three paragon interrupts, so I'm assuming one of those is what leads to the LI comments.  I'd play it again, but as I romanced Thane I'd have nothing to contribute to this thread.  /fail

Bioware, you are win for including a calibrations reference.    I'm hoping in ME3 they'll fix his "I'm busy" dialogue to be more like Mordin's rotating lines, or maybe even a "Not now, sweet cheeks! /slaps butt"...and then FemShep runs to the kitchen where she belongs.

[Pacifien]

So thread on the General Discussion that takes a trip down memory lane, specifically the E3 demos from 2006. Aside from seeing Garrus pre-facial markings, I also just noticed for the first time that you apparently could control him during combat directly, like switching party members in Dragon Age. Click for flashback.

[zhongda]

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

JulianP wrote...

The surfaces of the plates look to me like a sort of tough hide with miniscule metallic particles suspended in it.  Might still be tattooable even though I'm in the facepaint camp for now, but the ink would have to not react with the metal??

JulianP- That would be tattooable.

A bit of information on tattooing (the human version) for anyone interested in the topic as it would theoretically apply to turians- tattoos are just tons of tiny specks of ink deposited in the living layers of the skin.  Because of this, they don't usually retain the brightness and opacity of pigments applied to the surface.  (And it's a dead giveaway that the tattoo is either a) fake or hella fresh if it's super-bright and stands out in sharp contrast to the surrounding skin.)  Tattoo needles are actually groups of tiny points in varying shapes, i.e. to create lines or shading.  Our power supplies let us alter the speed of the needles, and pressure matters as well, all based on the client's skin type. 

Ergo, if JulianP's theory about turian hide- which is what I think as well- is correct, it would be tattooable- a turian tattooist just need the right type of needles and a good power supply.  Among people the final results vary; some reject, some never take, some need repeated applications to take, some go in like butter and stay put.  I'd imagine the same would be true for turians, accounting for the varying appearances their facial markings have, even explaining barefaced turians.

Good modern tattoo inks are pretty stable and biocompatible.  I'd imagine turian inks would be similar.  While inks are stored in plastic bottles, the machines/needles/etc. are all metal...Luckily they're not like hair dye where you may get some freaky random color if you let it interact. Not that I have experience with that 8D

ANYWAY.
---
@Kim Shepard- I always start an mShep intending for him to be disinterested in women and suspiciously feminine monogendered blue-skinned space babes, with the hope that ME3 will introduce a male love interest and that he can be happy.  I was really hoping that Garrus would be a male LI but nooo...gay/xeno!Shep goes home alone again xD  Additionally, all of my mSheps are apparently straight for Tali.

I do have one femShep who stayed faithful to Kaidan but buuuh not taking Garrus up on his dorky story about stress relief was difficult.

I get too invested in these characters to play them very differently from playthrough to playthrough...It was almost painful making my main femShep to be enough of a jerk in ME on my second playthrough to open up all of the intimidate ranks.  Likewise, I find Tali and Garrus adorable so the Sheps able to romance them usually do.

Turians looking like human men, though?  I don't see it, other than their voices and shoulder-to-hip ratio.  With those thin waists and relatively wide hips, one could make the argument that they're similar to human women, too.  Honestly, I think they're kind of out of the uncanny valley-esque situation that I find myself in with asari.  They're too alien to really strike me as humanlike.  At first I found them exotic and intriguing   However, having played ME2 first, I didn't think I'd romance Garrus until I "met" him.  Then his personality won me over, bigtime.  I don't know, I like to think that my Sheps fall in love with the people they do because of what's inside, not on the outside.  My mSheps are just generally disinterested in women if he's just window shopping, at least until Tali clubs him over the head and drags him to her bunk for death by snu snu.

Note that I am not denying that I find turians sexy.  I do.  Disturbingly so.
---
Anyway, This may be akin to heresy, but given the allegations in LotSB that Shep's keeping Garrus down- something that isn't horribly difficult to imagine or OOC, given the rigid dominance structure of the Turian military and culture in general...How would you feel if Garrus was able to flourish and reach the height of his potential- due to not working under Shepard anymore?  Would his availability- whether you could stop planetside to go see him whenever, or were only able to see him during specific missions, etc.- change your opinion at all?

^^See, see, I'm being on topic!  Seriously, though, I'm interested in what you guys would have to say about that.  I kind of realized something about how I'd feel on the subject while I was out flying pigeons today.

Modifié par zhongda, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[J4N3_M3]

Pacifien wrote...

So thread on the General Discussion that takes a trip down memory lane, specifically the E3 demos from 2006. Aside from seeing Garrus pre-facial markings, I also just noticed for the first time that you apparently could control him during combat directly, like switching party members in Dragon Age. Click for flashback.

whoa, thanks for that one. wasn't that the one we were looking for a while ago? ya know, Shep pointing his gun at Garrus and all?

So they wanted to call this Caleston and instead it turned into the Therum mission where you recruit Liara?

[Pacifien]

I always viewed Garrus and Shepard's roles as one of protege/mentor and would love to see Garrus reaching his full potential away from Shepard. LotSB showed you can still get in-depth use out of a character without them following you for the entire game. Would be interesting if maybe in ME3 Garrus struck out on his own and joined up with Shepard for a critical mission at some point before separating again. Liason to the Turians even.

[Lovestories]

Tootles FTW wrote...
maybe even a "Not now, sweet cheeks! /slaps butt"...and then FemShep runs to the kitchen where she belongs.

Looool. I can hear Garrus saying that in my head right now lol. I cant really imagine any of the LI's and Shepard exchanging cutsie names for each other, funny thought though.

And I'd much prefer to accidentally miss an interupt than accidentally press one, poor guy went flying out the window on my paragon playthrough lool

Modifié par Lovestories, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:45 .

[J4N3_M3]

Pacifien wrote...

I always viewed Garrus and Shepard's roles as one of protege/mentor and would love to see Garrus reaching his full potential away from Shepard. LotSB showed you can still get in-depth use out of a character without them following you for the entire game. Would be interesting if maybe in ME3 Garrus struck out on his own and joined up with Shepard for a critical mission at some point before separating again. Liason to the Turians even.

I would actually love this for a seperate DLC rather than ME3. I want them all back together in ME3. It would suck to have them do their own thing in the last game. I mean, after all, the reason why Shep is working with them is because they are Shep's team and the best in their fields. I think, Bioware had these plans for Liara and the VS in the first place, but after some NPCs got so popular, they may reconsider all this. I sense more DLCs in the future.

[Pacifien]

J4N3_M3 wrote...
So they wanted to call this Caleston and instead it turned into the Therum mission where you recruit Liara?

I've read a lot of speculation about what Caleston was supposed to be. Mostly how it was supposed to be another hub world like Noveria with some sidequests along with the recruitment of Liara. But I also read how it was just for the E3 promotion and was never going to be in the final game. Interesting to see an early version of the interrupt between Shepard and Garrus. Think they intended to play up human/turian tensions a bit more?

[J4N3_M3]

Lovestories wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...
maybe even a "Not now, sweet cheeks! /slaps butt"...and then FemShep runs to the kitchen where she belongs.

Looool. I can hear Garrus saying that in my head right now lol. I cant really imagine any of the LI's and Shepard exchanging cutsie names for each other, funny though thought.

And I'd much prefer to accidentally miss an interupt than accidentally press one, poor guy went flying out the window on my paragon playthrough lool

hence why I ignored all Renegade interrupts on my Paragon PT lol...that was tough though.

[Lovestories]

Pacifien wrote...

I always viewed Garrus and Shepard's roles as one of protege/mentor and would love to see Garrus reaching his full potential away from Shepard. LotSB showed you can still get in-depth use out of a character without them following you for the entire game. Would be interesting if maybe in ME3 Garrus struck out on his own and joined up with Shepard for a critical mission at some point before separating again. Liason to the Turians even.

Urgh as much as it pains me, yeah I would like something like this too, or maybe Garrus leaving Shepard for half the mission and coming back at the end. I dunno how I'd take a prolonged period without my GarGar =(, But we do definately need to see him strong and being the true leader he's capable of, rather than Shepard's sidekick. So nice having him lead the team during the last mission =)

[Hazzel42]

Hmmmm that's a tough one. On the one had from a purely selfish player's point of view I'd want to keep Garrus around as a squad mate and LI for ME3. I don't think I ever left him behind on any mission - just couldn't stay away :-)



From a story / Shepard point of view I'd think it would be important for Garrus to realize his potential and become the leader (Specter poss?) he should be. Kind of the way Liara got to shine in her DLC.



I think if it's done right you could have your cake and eat it too by having Garrus along for the ride in ME3 and then in the after story giving him the opportunity to get out and be more with Shepard's coaxing. I think if they win the war (there'd better be a happy ending to ME3!) then it would be the perfect time for Garrus to step up to the next level.

[J4N3_M3]

Pacifien wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...
So they wanted to call this Caleston and instead it turned into the Therum mission where you recruit Liara?

I've read a lot of speculation about what Caleston was supposed to be. Mostly how it was supposed to be another hub world like Noveria with some sidequests along with the recruitment of Liara. But I also read how it was just for the E3 promotion and was never going to be in the final game. Interesting to see an early version of the interrupt between Shepard and Garrus. Think they intended to play up human/turian tensions a bit more?

also, Garrus is still barefaced in this trailer ^.^ and has no visor. I love that they included this mission, though I am sad, they cut the dialogue out.

[TheodoricFriede]

You know, on the topic of Oarrus not reaching his full potential under Shepards command, I would like to remind everyone that A: That's just the shadow brokers opinion, and B: People seem to forget he led a very successful team on Omega. The only problem was that one of his team decided to sell him out out fear of being tortured and killed, even the best leader cant control the fear response of his subordinates.

And lets not forget that he is one of the few people on the Normandy team capable of leading the diversion teams on the collector ship, an obvious sign that he is a very capable leader. After all, his team was the diversion team. His job was to take the brunt of enemy fire while Shepard's team sneaks by. Arguably the more difficult job.

Finally, even if he was being held back, there's no reason why in the third game he cant be on your team. After he saves the galaxy he'll probably be made a specter anyway. (Or possibly the new C-Sec Executor. I imagine that renegade Garrus becomes a specter. and paragon Garrus becomes the C-Sec Executor. But what do i know?)

[Tootles FTW]

zhongda wrote...

Anyway, This may be akin to heresy, but given the allegations in LotSB that Shep's keeping Garrus down- something that isn't horribly difficult to imagine or OOC, given the rigid dominance structure of the Turian military and culture in general...How would you feel if Garrus was able to flourish and reach the height of his potential- due to not working under Shepard anymore?  Would his availability- whether you could stop planetside to go see him whenever, or were only able to see him during specific missions, etc.- change your opinion at all?

I've stated my opinion on this a couple pages back, but I think this idea of "potential" is romanticized.  If a person is in an environment that lets them thrive, and with people who 1) share their ideals or 2) encourage growth of character through the questioning of those ideals, there is no question on having your potential stifled unless there exists some internal flaw which really has nothing to do with outside influences (ie Shepard).

The ONLY aspect of the Shep/Garrus relationship that I think could hinder Garrus's future is within their shared military careers - if Shepard reaffiliates herself and the new Normandy with the Alliance and Garrus remains onboard he won't/can't reach an equal rank (Commander/Admiral, whatev).  This is assuming that Shepard or Garrus have aspirations of continuing within a military organization, as it's entirely possible that Shepard focuses solely on her Spectre obligations and Garrus either assists in them or applies as a Spectre himself.  It's been stated before, but it would be TEH MOST AWESOME SPECTRE TEAM EVAR.

I just detest the idea of Garrus needing to separate himself from Shepard, as it speaks of some sort of inherent flaw within the relationship.  A relationship between Shep & Garrus can be mutually benefitial to both parties. 

[Arijharn]

Sorry to partially derail your discussions but I'd like to let it be known that my sheps definitely have a bromance happening with Garrus (on the bromance meter, Garrus is much higher than any other character, including Wrex) but I feel that with the LotSB I will no longer be able to potentially use 'yo momma' jokes on him.



I hope that I could help him in some way in regards to this, if only for me to give Garrus a good natured shovelling of crap ('yo momma is so fat, that when she jumps for joy, she gets stuck!') at a later opportunity.

[Kim Shepard]

Thanks for posting that, Pacifien. I bought ME1 not long before ME2 was released, so I haven't seen any of these trailers.

@zhongda: I didn't mean turians look like human men, just that they obviously look like men, as the asari look like women. xD That's the reason why my straight FemSheps wouldn't go for an asari, but one of them is attracted to turians because they look like men, just way more awesome. (MainShep's always liked Saren.)

I've planned out a lot of different Shepards, and my advice would be to create different Shepards for different decisions. If you have a strong character idea in mind, it just seems wrong to have them act a different way in other playthroughs. Each of my Shepards have their own personalities and background stories, so it's easy for one of my MaleSheps to make different choices than MainShep. Well, not completely easy all of the time - making him say that they were going to hunt down and kill Saren, my favorite character, was not fun. There are some choices they'll never make, like leaving Garrus behind in ME1 or killing him off in ME2.

I would want Garrus on the team for all of ME3. I expect that there will be a few new squadmates, and I want some new squadmates, I just want them to be there in combination with Shepard's old squad. If Garrus isn't there, but Kai Leng is one of the new squadmates... my first reaction would probably be, "BioWare is both awesome and kind of cruel." If neither Kai Leng or Garrus is there, that would be annoying. xD

Also, I agree with the people who said having someone else on the team who can lead is important, just like in the suicide mission. I don't think Garrus has any problem reaching his full potential if he stays with Shepard. Where Shepard is, all the important battles will follow. Everyone on Shepard's team will accomplish awesome things because of it.

[Pacifien]

I don't see why Garrus can't lead a second team in ME3 and be in a relationship with Shepard at the same time. The fact he's able to lead a team successfully is why he should be trusted to coordinate more complex operations. On his own, away from Shepard's directions.

One element brought up about Garrus's time on Omega was that he felt all his time there was a waste, as if he felt he should have been concentrating on the much larger picture with the coming Reaper threat. Of course, Mordin demonstrates what good one can do for a rough neighborhood after working on the grand projects and get much fulfillment out of it. But don't think that's where Garrus needs to be at this point in time.

Modifié par Pacifien, 10 septembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[JulianP]

zhongda wrote...

Ergo, if JulianP's theory about turian hide- which is what I think as well- is correct, it would be tattooable- a turian tattooist just need the right type of needles and a good power supply.  Among people the final results vary; some reject, some never take, some need repeated applications to take, some go in like butter and stay put.  I'd imagine the same would be true for turians, accounting for the varying appearances their facial markings have, even explaining barefaced turians.

As in, they're barefaced because they have allergies?   Guess it could be worse... if you've seen pictures of people reacting to so-called "black henna" .. wow.

How would you feel if Garrus was able to flourish and reach the height of his potential- due to not working under Shepard anymore?  Would his availability- whether you could stop planetside to go see him whenever, or were only able to see him during specific missions, etc.- change your opinion at all?

While I have strong selfish player reasons to want Garrus to stay with the team, I also happen to think that at the moment he isn't actually likely to be able to find some "job" that would allow him the same degree of command, "career advancement,"  and "job satisfaction" he could potentially have working with Shepard.  I do like the "turian liason" idea in principle, but I don't think it's likely since he seems to be a tad suspect with other turians.  With his reputation, I don't think they'd trust him for a diplomatic role like that, and besides, he seems to have fallen off the grid for a while and needs to rebuild connections.  The other practical reason I want him to stick around for a least another game is that I think he's in the middle of some serious soul-searching and emotional reorganization.  His life hasn't been too stable recently, and he's too passionate and earnest to wait on the sidelines.  So probably best if he keeps working with the people he trusts, about the issues he cares about, at least until he rebuilds his reputation and himself enough to reintegrate into mainstream turian society, having figured out how he can cope (if that's what he decides he wants); or finds a more permanent and less lonely place for himself in some unorthodox career or situation.

... while I was out flying pigeons today.

Sorry 'bout the off topic, but ooooh, you have pigeons?  Jealous!   It was a very popular sport where I grew up and I have relatives who race.  Rarely see it in the U.S, though.  And I had to leave my parrots witih my family to come to the States.  But loving birds definitely helped me fall for Garrus! 

[Lovestories]

@ Theodoric

IMo Garrus is disillusioned and while hes under Shepard's command witnessing her triumphs it will only help to reaffirm his self doubt. He got his whole team killed (Not his fault, but he believes it) and then Shepard had to swoop in and save him, because of that he feels as if he cant even trust his own instincts. His own sister seems to think he's a bum (another person just reminding him of his shortcomings) and he can't even tell her that shes wrong. He needs something that will snap him back into reality that he's not just a sidekick. But I agree that he can still be on your team, but I do want to see him really take control and be in charge of something by himself and suceed.

[Tootles FTW]

If they go the DAO route in ME3 where you have to gather all of the races together to assemble a fleet VS the Reapers, I would be totally fine if they allow you to put Garrus at the head of the turian fleet (similar to sending him off as the fire team leader) to oversee the attack from their angle. It would be epic on all accounts.

Modifié par Tootles FTW, 10 septembre 2010 - 06:15 .

[Homebound]

Pacifien wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...
So they wanted to call this Caleston and instead it turned into the Therum mission where you recruit Liara?

I've read a lot of speculation about what Caleston was supposed to be. Mostly how it was supposed to be another hub world like Noveria with some sidequests along with the recruitment of Liara. But I also read how it was just for the E3 promotion and was never going to be in the final game. Interesting to see an early version of the interrupt between Shepard and Garrus. Think they intended to play up human/turian tensions a bit more?

Im wondering if that has anything to do with Garrus' mother's illness.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Here is a solution. Make Garrus the XO.

[JulianP]

Lovestories wrote...
But I agree that he can still be on your team, but I do want to see him really take control and be in charge of something by himself and suceed.

In that vein, I think I would actually enjoy having a little episode in the next game that's like the "fire-team leader" thing, only with more exploration of what Garrus is actually doing and the chance to postivitely influence his character arc if Shepard trusts him to make decisions.  As in, maybe something where you must accomplish the mission in tandem with a second team either by letting Garrus come into his own, or by shutting him down, (or something in between), and the choice affects his outcome as a character.  Maybe he even screws up something if you delegate a lot of authority, allowing us to see what he's learned about dealing with failure from ME2.   Or maybe if you don't let him do stuff, he goes and does something risky but brilliant, and then has to deal with the consequences and is in danger of going disturbingly renegade or cripplingly conservative.

Heck, I would actually love a "play as Garrus" thing if it weren't so much a "Joker only" thing in people's minds. 

[JulianP]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Here is a solution. Make Garrus the XO.

Second that!  It annoys me SO much whenever Miranda introduces herself as "Shepard's Second-in-Command."  Sorry, but that's Garrus and always has been, and he's the only one of the team I'd serve under myself. 

[Pacifien]

Miranda's second in command of the Normandy which has a considerable crew of Cerberus personnel. That doesn't make her second in command of Shepard's Dirty Dozen, which might as well be Garrus's role.