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[Reptilian Rob]

Cocytus wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

Cocytus wrote...

It wasn't that kind of fragility, really. I propose we look at the issue from a different angle, that is see the contradictions embedded in the character (for they make him great). See, Garrus's story is all about justice and it's perception, really. And that brings about a series of questions from the field of ethics. When I said that he is fragile I did not, by no means, imply that his psyche is deteriorating (which may be true if the Bioware writers suddenly wish to turn the franchise into an existential play). On the other hand, his path has been that of balancing on a rope. The very ideals he sought so faithfully to protect and instill in the universe nearly got crushed under the weight of that selfish thirst for revenge. Mind you, strength does not come from stepping on people's necks or sniping them far out.

I think I see what you are saying in that the fragility you mean is more how he almost destroyed himself (allowing the thirst for revenge to consume him), vs "emotional/psychological" fragility.

In that sense, yes, he almost allowed himself to destroy himself and it was Shepard who helped pull him from that ledge (or helped him fulfil that drive).

YES! That's what I've been talking about. You see, he's still yet to form his personal comprehension of the universe, and things present in it. Let's remember how pure he was at the start, that's the fragile thing we shield, that's what makes him so fascinating, that's what we shall not allow to be stepped upon, even if he himself is willing to give it up. If it's gone then what remains?

Edit: I see Sir Robert's sense of humor is as bright as ever. The image still features too few hugs.

In terms of Garrus' frailness, I believe that he's on the verge of breaking down. If you listen to the audio between him and Shepard in the skycar right before he is going to take out Sidonis, his tone is very choked up. Especially the line "Thinking he could just, get away with this." At that moment Garrus really does sound like he's going to start sobbing, but pulls himself back. Line in question can be found in this video

Maybe that's just they way I interpreted it, although I would still like to see some resolution for our favorite Turian. 

[Eradyn]

I always read it as severe disbelief bordering on disgust. I think he finds it utterly abhorrent; the idea that a traitor could get away with leading to the deaths of his own former team strikes Garrus at the very core of his ideology, as both a turian (always place the team ahead of one's self...selflessness and sacrifice are hallmark turian traits and a turian traitor is very much an antithesis) and a man of strong convictions and beliefs (thirst for justice).

Modifié par Eradyn, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:23 .

[Cocytus]

Eradyn wrote...

Cocytus wrote...

YES! That's what I've been talking about. You see, he's still yet to form his personal comprehension of the universe, and things present in it. Let's remember how pure he was at the start, that's the fragile thing we shield, that's what makes him so fascinating, that's what we shall not allow to be stepped upon, even if he himself is willing to give it up. If it's gone then what remains?

What is left is a changed man, scarred on the inside as well as the outside.  Whether the player could accept him being changed is another matter, and I wonder if even he would have liked what he'd see in the mirror (Garrus: "You don't have to agree with me, Shepard.  I'll make the decision, I'll live with the consequences.").

His ability to hold fast to the values he had in ME1 (as shaky as that was then) is still tenuous...I think in ME2 it is more resolved after his loyalty mission where Shepard can urge him to not go down that path or to encourage him to.  I look forward to seeing how this resolution plays out in his character development in ME3...and I truly hope BW does explore this path.  Not so much that Shepard changed him for him, like a person playing with putty, but to let him be his own person having changed by his own power after considering the opinions of a dear friend/lover.

"You don't have to agree with me, Shepard.  I'll make the decision, I'll live with the consequences."
No way in the world, sweetie. "Can't letcha do that, Fox".
Having worked for some time in a public (or state financed) school, I cannot allow such an idea put the things that are universally perceived as good in jeopardy. As one guy said: That's a nice ideal, Shepard. But the consequences are not entirely up to him. It is still a question of righteousness and not that of desire or personal evolution (or degradation for that matter). Letting him do that might as well put Shep in the position of Londo Mollari during his 'Long Night'. Ergo: strictly Renegade stuff. I'm not a Renegade, so...

[Netem]

Hi there! I'm new to the forums and sort of testing the waters a little. Figured this was the best thread for my question, seeing your ongoing discussion and all... Basically, I'm curious as to whether turians actually can cry? I can't recall any turians shedding any tears in-game. (There are the books, too, I guess, but I haven't read them...) I mean, it doesn't really matter whether Garrus wants to cry in front of Shepard or not, if he can't.

[Cocytus]

Eradyn wrote...

I always read it as severe disbelief bordering on disgust. I think he finds it utterly abhorrent; the idea that a traitor could get away with leading to the deaths of his own former team strikes Garrus at the very core of his ideology, as both a turian (always place the team ahead of one's self...selflessness and sacrifice are hallmark turian traits and a turian traitor is very much an antithesis) and a man of strong convictions and beliefs (thirst for justice).

However unfortunate that might seem, that is not the justice he was about to reign down on Sidonis. He himself acknowledges his yearning for vengeance. An eye for an eye? 'No strength in that.' In my case, he did the hardest thing to do, and thus was saved.

Edit: collectivism, Turian or Soviet or Chinese, is not quite what it seems to be at first. It's all about the Eastern idea of authority, really. I can only congratulate Garru on not being a good Turian. In fact, Garru is almost Faust-like.

Modifié par Cocytus, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[Eradyn]

Netem wrote...

Hi there! I'm new to the forums and sort of testing the waters a little. Figured this was the best thread for my question, seeing your ongoing discussion and all... Basically, I'm curious as to whether turians actually can cry? I can't recall any turians shedding any tears in-game. (There are the books, too, I guess, but I haven't read them...) I mean, it doesn't really matter whether Garrus wants to cry in front of Shepard or not, if he can't.

Heheh, I'm not sure if turians can cry.  I know they can sweat.  On earth, crying is seen as a distinctly human phenomenon, although some people say some animals can cry as well (such as elephants).  I do think they have to at least be lubricated somehow.  I haven't seen them licking their eyes or anything...it's possible they just produce enough saline (or whatever) to keep the eye healthy and protected, but is there the ability to cry? I'm not sure.

I can't remember seeing tears on the one grieving turian in Mordin's clinic, but then I never looked very closely for that.

Cocytus wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

I always
read it as severe disbelief bordering on disgust. I think he finds it
utterly abhorrent; the idea that a traitor could get away with leading
to the deaths of his own former team strikes Garrus at the very core of
his ideology, as both a turian (always place the team ahead of one's
self...selflessness and sacrifice are hallmark turian traits and a
turian traitor is very much an antithesis) and a man of strong
convictions and beliefs (thirst for justice).

However
unfortunate that might seem, that is not the justice he was about to
reign down on Sidonis. He himself acknowlidges his earning for
vengeance. An eye for an eye? 'No strength in that.' In my case, he did
the hardest thing to do, and thus was saved.

Edit: collectivism,
Turian or Soviet or Chinese, is not quite what it seems to be at first.
It's all about the Eastern idea of authority, really. I can only
congratulate Garru on not being a good Turian. In fact, Garru is almost
Faust-like.

Yeah, considering what I've read of their culture...

When the one turian killed the human reporter they'd detained by piercing an artery with his talon, he committed suicide, a "seppuku" of sorts.  This was seen as just in turian society, a worthy punishment.  I think Garrus was living up to similar expectations of his kind when he went out for revenge...but I also think he became a better man when he refused to pull the trigger, recognizing there was still good in Sidonis.  That might just be me and my Shepard applying human principles on a turian, but...even he recognized it.  So maybe there's some room for mercy, too, I think.

Modifié par Eradyn, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:41 .

[Aricle]

I reunited with Garrus in a new ME2 PT last night- and that never fails to affect me, meeting him again and talking to him afterward. There is the obvious of the fear of almost losing him (despite knowing he lives)- yet small things have more impact each time. His body language when he talks to her about what happened to his team; I found myself not playing it as 'me' or as an 'RP' but as choosing the responses that seemed the closest to simply listening. When I chose responses that were more simple questions instead of commenting on his feelings about his team, and he answered with basic information about the team and his Omega situation, the moment he thought about his team's deaths, the pain showed in his body even if his words weren't about his thoughts/feelings about them. Even if I had no sound, his body language told me everything- when his head would drop and his shoulders slump before he even said a word.

[Cocytus]

There is always room for mercy. No, not mercy, but forgiveness in it's most exalted sense.

[Liec]

Eradyn wrote...

Netem wrote...

Hi there! I'm new to the forums and sort of testing the waters a little. Figured this was the best thread for my question, seeing your ongoing discussion and all... Basically, I'm curious as to whether turians actually can cry? I can't recall any turians shedding any tears in-game. (There are the books, too, I guess, but I haven't read them...) I mean, it doesn't really matter whether Garrus wants to cry in front of Shepard or not, if he can't.

Heheh, I'm not sure if turians can cry.  I know they can sweat.  On earth, crying is seen as a distinctly human phenomenon, although some people say some animals can cry as well (such as elephants).  I do think they have to at least be lubricated somehow.  I haven't seen them licking their eyes or anything...it's possible they just produce enough saline (or whatever) to keep the eye healthy and protected, but is there the ability to cry? I'm not sure.

I can't remember seeing tears on the one grieving turian in Mordin's clinic, but then I never looked very closely for that.

Cocytus wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

I always
read it as severe disbelief bordering on disgust. I think he finds it
utterly abhorrent; the idea that a traitor could get away with leading
to the deaths of his own former team strikes Garrus at the very core of
his ideology, as both a turian (always place the team ahead of one's
self...selflessness and sacrifice are hallmark turian traits and a
turian traitor is very much an antithesis) and a man of strong
convictions and beliefs (thirst for justice).

However
unfortunate that might seem, that is not the justice he was about to
reign down on Sidonis. He himself acknowlidges his earning for
vengeance. An eye for an eye? 'No strength in that.' In my case, he did
the hardest thing to do, and thus was saved.

Edit: collectivism,
Turian or Soviet or Chinese, is not quite what it seems to be at first.
It's all about the Eastern idea of authority, really. I can only
congratulate Garru on not being a good Turian. In fact, Garru is almost
Faust-like.

Yeah, considering what I've read of their culture...

When the one turian killed the human reporter they'd detained by piercing an artery with his talon, he committed suicide, a "seppuku" of sorts.  This was seen as just in turian society, a worthy punishment.  I think Garrus was living up to similar expectations of his kind when he went out for revenge...but I also think he became a better man when he refused to pull the trigger, recognizing there was still good in Sidonis.  That might just be me and my Shepard applying human principles on a turian, but...even he recognized it.  So maybe there's some room for mercy, too, I think.

It was the turian's commander who took full responsability and commited suicide, the one who actually killed the reporter went free. It sort of reminds me of the email from his squadmate's widow about how Garrus took every casualty as a failure on his part. 

[Eradyn]

Liec wrote...

It was the turian's commander who took full responsability and commited suicide, the one who actually killed the reporter went free. It sort of reminds me of the email from his squadmate's widow about how Garrus took every casualty as a failure on his part. 

Oh, was it? Blast my faulty memory.  XD Hm...close enough.  You're right, it would still make sense with how Garrus felt it was a failure on his part that led to their deaths.

[General Ashous]

Indeed, Garrus did take his squads death very hardly and blamed himself like any of us undoubtedly would. However, we all have to face the fact that it never really is our fault. That's what Garrus learns if he doesn't kill Sidonis and I for one love that moment, the moment he realises that. However, it seems to be part of turian culture to take responsibility for their actions, even if it's not their fault and own up to it. That's one of the things I like about them.

[Faerlyte]

Um, just thought I'd point out that tears do not necessarily equate to weakness or 'breaking', or not having a willpower. For a very emotional person, tears aren't something they can control, *cough*me*cough*, and can be caused by any number of circumstances, but I can tell you that the last thing you want is a seriously furious, and stubborn, emotional person on your hands because they get really angry and want to hit things. >_>



It all depends on what the tears are for because you can use that kind of intense emotion to your advantage if you are someone with a lot of willpower. Do I think Garrus is the sort to cry? ,Maybe, maybe not, but people are complex and they can surprise you. Of course, maybe turians can't cry, but IF they can...



The fact that Garrus strikes me as being a highly emotional character, it wouldn't shock me or make me think less of him if he had a momentary break-down, because that happens to even the strongest of people. Nobody is perfect all the time. I would go so far as to say that it makes an emotional person stronger in the end, because crying is a major stress reliever. You let out all your pent up emotion in that action, all your fears, all your grief, and you feel better for it after, so that you're ready to face the music and kick some ass.



I've known men to cry, and it wasn't because they were weak. My brother is one of them. It's one of the most intense expressions of feeling a person has - there's no shame in being someone who feels life to that degree of intensity.



You just don't want to broadcast it to the world.

[Eradyn]

Tears aren't the only way to relieve emotional stress. :3

*Lets the comment sit for a while*

Okay, back to the topic. XD

There are tears and then there is "omg, wtf where's a crobar" type tears. The former...


The latter...


Let me say this...if turians could cry, and were Garrus to cry more like the former...I would not think less of him as a person and a soldier.

But if he started sobbing like a hysterical ninny, you bet I would. Maybe it's just the culture I was raised in, dunno...but one is acceptable, even moving and deeply touching, where appropriately displayed and the other is just cringe-worthy and eye-avertingly, painfully embarrassing.  How one grieves is deeply personal BECAUSE it is personal...it speaks of a person.  And the latter would just be...too offputting and, at least to me, very incredibly unlike Garrus.

Modifié par Eradyn, 12 septembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Eradyn wrote...
But if he started sobbing like a hysterical ninny, you bet I would.  

You'll have to excuse me if I say I don't understand the logic behind how the type of crying makes a man less of a man. Formally being in the Air Force ROTC (wasn't actually part of the military) I knew guys who would come back from both Iraq and Afghanistan and literally sob for days on end because thy felt that their squad mates deaths were somehow their faults. 

So, does that make them less of a man? I would like to think not. 

[Eradyn]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Eradyn wrote...
But if he started sobbing like a hysterical ninny, you bet I would.  

You'll have to excuse me if I say I don't understand the logic behind how the type of crying makes a man less of a man. Formally being in the Air Force ROTC (wasn't actually part of the military) I knew guys who would come back from both Iraq and Afghanistan and literally sob for days on end because thy felt that their squad mates deaths were somehow their faults. 

So, does that make them less of a man? I would like to think not. 

Not saying it does, just saying that's how it would affect me if Garrus suddenly was like that.  *shrugs* 

Modifié par Eradyn, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:02 .

[Sialater]

I'm never sure what to do when anyone of either gender cries. The soul crushing sobs of real sorrow kill me. I'd do anything to make it stop, just about.

[Xalena]

Now we need Chuck Garrus Norris joke/facts with crying here...anybody?xD

If you see Garrus crying he will grant you a wish, if your wish is dying.

I like this pic...



Ahh Garrus

[Eradyn]

I like that one, too, Xalena. Portrays their grief well, and I like how the background colors have a sort of duality to them.

[Xalena]

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/128/index/4776443   opinions on this Survey... Garrus rocks

Anyway if Garrus is going to cry...well ok... but I think he won't... Actually I have this pic in my imagination... Garrus and Shepard talking and then Shepard goes away..and then focus on Garrus face...and one single tear drops from his eye but that single tear is like a diamond ...humm:blush:...lol

Tbh...I want my Shepard to cry xD everyone cried... Thane cried, Tali cried, Liara cried, Jack cried...damn it is Shepard's turn to cry xD I wish that she cries! Shepard...cry...NOW!

I wish everyone good night ...or day

edit: Wow... I just noticed that something is missing on these boards o.O... Where is Tali support  thread?!

Modifié par Xalena, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Marta Rio]

Xalena wrote...
Now we need Chuck Garrus Norris joke/facts with crying here...anybody?xD

The only time you'll see Garrus Vakarian cry is if he's stranded on a desert planet with no alternative water source.

[Eradyn]

Xalena wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/128/index/4776443   opinions on this Survey... Garrus rocks

Anyway if Garrus is going to cry...well ok... but I think he won't... Actually I have this pic in my imagination... Garrus and Shepard talking and then Shepard goes away..and then focus on Garrus face...and one single tear drops from his eye but that single tear is like a diamond ...humm:blush:...lol
Tbh...I want my Shepard to cry xD everyone cried... Thane cried, Tali cried, Liara cried, Jack cried...damn it is Shepard's turn to cry xD I wish that she cries! Shepard...cry...NOW!
I wish everyone good night

Heh, I saw that thread. ^^ Some interesting results in there...I wonder how they would have looked had the Tali thread still been open.

And your "Diamond-tear" description made me lol.  XD

I should say, it isn't that I'm against displays of emotion, nor would I hate Garrus, or something, because he cried.  It really would depend on how BW portrayed it.  I mean...is he all high-pitched blubbering or is it a deep, soul-crushing grief? Is it a "single tear shining down the cheek like a diamond" (XD)? Is it him and Shepard quietly embraced and grieving? It's hard for me to say just how far I could go where I would still be able to say...okay, yes, that would be within Garrus' character to grieve that way (at least the character I've had built up in my head after two games).  

Depending on how BW did it, it would shift my perception of him, at least on an unconscious level...be it for better (with a scene of genuine grief and comfort) or for the worse (whiny emo Garrus...like a crying Anakin Skywalker...*shudders* D;).  And all this is said regarding Garrus.  My expectations of others (in RL or otherwise) differs depending on the person/character and circumstances.  My discussion regarding this is solely focused on Garrus and how I see him as a character.

And yeah, the mods removed the Tali thread...locked it down for spam or something and won't let a new one be created in its place.

Marta Rio wrote...

Xalena wrote...
Now we need Chuck Garrus Norris joke/facts with crying here...anybody?xD

The only time you'll see Garrus Vakarian cry is if he's stranded on a desert planet with no alternative water source.

Lol...the tears of his enemies are his sustenance. XD

Modifié par Eradyn, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[Homebound]

Xalena wrote...

Now we need Chuck Garrus Norris joke/facts with crying here...anybody?xD
If you see Garrus crying he will grant you a wish, if your wish is dying.
I like this pic...

Ahh Garrus

Garrus once walked into a bar in Omega. Their were no survivors.

Modifié par Just_mike, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:23 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Eradyn wrote...

Xalena wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/128/index/4776443   opinions on this Survey... Garrus rocks

Anyway if Garrus is going to cry...well ok... but I think he won't... Actually I have this pic in my imagination... Garrus and Shepard talking and then Shepard goes away..and then focus on Garrus face...and one single tear drops from his eye but that single tear is like a diamond ...humm:blush:...lol
Tbh...I want my Shepard to cry xD everyone cried... Thane cried, Tali cried, Liara cried, Jack cried...damn it is Shepard's turn to cry xD I wish that she cries! Shepard...cry...NOW!
I wish everyone good night

Heh, I saw that thread. ^^ Some interesting results in there...I wonder how they would have looked had the Tali thread still been open.

And your "Diamond-tear" description made me lol.  XD

I should say, it isn't that I'm against displays of emotion, nor would I hate Garrus, or something, because he cried.  It really would depend on how BW portrayed it.  I mean...is he all high-pitched blubbering or is it a deep, soul-crushing grief? Is it a "single tear shining down the cheek like a diamond" (XD)? Is it him and Shepard quietly embraced and grieving? It's hard for me to say just how far I could go where I would still be able to say...okay, yes, that would be within Garrus' character to grieve that way (at least the character I've had built up in my head after two games).  

Depending on how BW did it, it would shift my perception of him, at least on an unconscious level...be it for better (with a scene of genuine grief and comfort) or for the worse (whiny emo Garrus...like a crying Anakin Skywalker...*shudders* D;).  And all this is said regarding Garrus.  My expectations of others (in RL or otherwise) differs depending on the person/character and circumstances.  My discussion regarding this is solely focused on Garrus and how I see him as a character.

And yeah, the mods removed the Tali thread...locked it down for spam or something and won't let a new one be created in its place.

That's what I was getting at, if Garrus is going to cry it needs to be done to his character. I would love to see a scene that depicts genuine emotion from him, crying some, but in a style that would fit him. I think the perfect way to do this is to create a situation where Garrus tells Shepard about his family, mom, sister, regrets ETC letting out a few tears. 

Just my opinion though, so don't take it as an absolute. 

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

If garrus cried I'd imagine his mandibles quivering.

[Naijuu]

That's why I think something good should happen to Garrus in ME3 so he won't need to cry at all.
Like... a big hug from Shepard xdd
Come on, BioWare, you know he deserves it!

aaaand Hello, everyone! I'm new here xd