29107 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazzel42]

ciaweth wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Isn't that a nice horrible conundrum for people romancing him? By helping him you stifle his independence and growth. By not helping him, he is unlikely to get to a state where he is stable enough to go out and live up to his potential. Once you have helped him, you are tied to him and he will not want to leave you. But if he doesn't leave, he won't make a difference on his own steam and probably won't be happy.

Thoughts?

I don't think it's that dire a scenario.  You can help Garrus without doing his work for him or telling him what to do.

"Look, at what this dossier says about you being in my shadow, man.  I don't want that to turn out to be true, do you?  Okay.  So, let me know what you decide you want to do, if anything, with all this stuff you're carrying around.  I'll abide by your decisions.  I'll be here if you need me."

It surely won't be quite as straightforward as all that, but I don't believe we'll be stuck with a lose-lose situation.

If you truly care about some one, and I'm sure Shepard falls into that camp wether it's romance or friendship, then you'll want them to live up to their potential.  I don't think that it's impossible for that to happen for Garrus if he stays with Shepard.  I think once Garrus has a chance to regain some of his self confidence that Shepard would start giving him more opportunities to take charge and eventually be an equal partner.  I think Garrus and Shepard might end up working on the same missions coming at them from different sides to better suport each other.  I'm sure as a team they'd be able to achieve way more than each would on their own.  Shepard is fabulous but without his/her team I don't think half as much would have been able to happen.  Besides a mixed species team working to solve some of the galaxies toughest problems can only act as an example for all 

[praetor_alpha]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

praetor_alpha wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...
I love Septimus. And Lorik. Any turian that doesn't appear to have a stick up his butt, which seems to be the default mode, is appreciated by me. Though to be fair, even the ones with sticks are appreciated by me...

I like turians! All kinds!

Except Velarn. *ss hoel. Sure his nephew got killed on Shep's mission, but he was avenged. It seems like "politics" is a terminal illness.

What? Where did that information come from?

Take a look at the Councilor's tattoo/face paint/ whatnot. Compare to Nihlus.
http://community.liv...t/598948.html#2
http://masseffect.wi...ncil_member.png
http://masseffect.wi...Codex_Image.jpg

Modifié par praetor_alpha, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[ciaweth]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree that Garrus does great work with Shepard. That is part of the problem. The times he tried to do things on his own post Shepard, he fails.

I disagree completely.  What times (plural?) has he failed?  Can you elaborate?

Modifié par ciaweth, 14 septembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Eradyn]

I don't view it as negatively, I guess, or as dire a situation. Almost no one flies solo to accomplish great things...not even Shepard, whose "greatness" is not necessarily in their combat prowess as it is in their ability to attract the best of the best. To accept aid from a close friend is not a crippling thing to be shunned. Garrus' problem is not necessarily that he's in Shep's shadow...the problem is that he's mired within his own dark cloud of hurt, grief, and self-doubt. I really like how, in the Suicide Mission, he's one of the characters that succeeds as team leader, that he can step out there and accomplish something great. That's a shining moment for him, I think, even if the game story doesn't allow it to be overtly acknowledged (it's only intrinsically acknowledged by the reality that he is one of the few who succeeds as team leader).

Also, it's important to keep in mind that the summary at the beginning of each dossier is the former SB's own opinion borne of their observations.

And finally...this is not necessarily a "problem" with Garrus and Shepard. If Shepard really is responsible for casting a shadow (and what a silly thing to be seen as shackles...you WANT a charismatic leader that can unite and embolden people, especially when facing a threat like the Reapers), it can only be for others' benefit. Were it "bad," then every squadmate, every NPC that's crossed paths with Shepard, would be "scarred" and "overshadowed" by Shepard's magical-Sue presence and thus lessened. I don't believe that, though. Great people can inspire greatness...and it's up to the individual who meets them to rise to that by their own power or not.

Garrus has spread his wings...he's accomplished great things even if he's in too dark a place to see that. I'm not going to twist him joining Shepard for a great cause as somehow detrimental to him. It's not. He's a damned hero, as are the rest of the squadmates, and he's stood on his own and shone for his abilities with his own team. He wouldn't have been on the roster of "best of the best" had he not proven he was worthy of that placement. Just because Garrus is self-effacing does not lessen what I feel is a truth of his character...nor should it be so for any of the others who have joined Shepard's cause.

...And I'm not even sure if I make any sense anymore. It's pretty late (early?) here. XD

Modifié par Eradyn, 14 septembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[JulianP]

Tyrium wrote...

WarlordFil wrote...

I think the deal with Septimus is, he wanted Sha'ira to be his girlfriend/fiance and to be with him exclusively (ie "to be more than she could be") and she was like "my job requires me to share intimacy with many different people, I am needed in this role, and I can't/won't just quit my job to be your exclusive partner/homemaker.")

I think Septimus could easily see himself as the cavalry riding in to the rescue only to find that Sha'ira did not WANT a rescue...she LIKES her job!

Then he feels frustrated that he's just one more of Sha'ira's friends/clients and not her hero....so he starts snapping back at her and getting depressed over too much booze.

I've never done the Shia'la quest, but this sounds exactly like  Mal and Inara's problems in Firefly!

Both of you, this is making a lot of sense :-) 

I tried looking for Septimus/Sha'ira fanfics, but there don't appear to be any!  Maybe I should try to write some cute thing about their story or something.

[Tootles FTW]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Oh, I didn't mean to imply it was dire or hopeless, but it isn't sunshine and bunnies either. I don't expect a neat, tidy, easy resolution and frankly I wouldn't want one. Such problems should not be solvable in some simple way. Do you really want to go up to Garrus and tell him you have been reading his mail? How would that go over? He's already made his choice. His choice was "I won't tell Shepard about my family." He didn't intend for Shep to find out about it, but now she has.

Unfortunately I don't think the dossiers are going to play any significant role in ME3, or, rather, Shep being able to read them won't have any affect - you couldn't even talk to your squaddies immediately after LotSB. 

I don't think Garrus intends to hide his family problems from you, I just think 1) he didn't view it as an appropriate time, and 2) he probably is aware of Shep's limitations.  What can Shep do, really, besides offer support and, perhaps, extra funds to get his mother into treatment?  Garrus went to the most practical person for this sort of problem - Mordin.

I really want Garrus to open up about his background and family in ME3; not to use Shepard as an emotional crutch, but to let her know that she is an important part of his life now.  He doesn't need her support, but I don't think it's bad if he wants it.  I would be mad if my significant other withheld information from me, especially something as dire as the health of his mother.

[Eradyn]

Tootles FTW wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Oh, I didn't mean to imply it was dire or hopeless, but it isn't sunshine and bunnies either. I don't expect a neat, tidy, easy resolution and frankly I wouldn't want one. Such problems should not be solvable in some simple way. Do you really want to go up to Garrus and tell him you have been reading his mail? How would that go over? He's already made his choice. His choice was "I won't tell Shepard about my family." He didn't intend for Shep to find out about it, but now she has.

Unfortunately I don't think the dossiers are going to play any significant role in ME3, or, rather, Shep being able to read them won't have any affect - you couldn't even talk to your squaddies immediately after LotSB. 

I don't think Garrus intends to hide his family problems from you, I just think 1) he didn't view it as an appropriate time, and 2) he probably is aware of Shep's limitations.  What can Shep do, really, besides offer support and, perhaps, extra funds to get his mother into treatment?  Garrus went to the most practical person for this sort of problem - Mordin.

I really want Garrus to open up about his background and family in ME3; not to use Shepard as an emotional crutch, but to let her know that she is an important part of his life now.  He doesn't need her support, but I don't think it's bad if he wants it.  I would be mad if my significant other withheld information from me, especially something as dire as the health of his mother.

I'm wondering if this will be brought up in future DLC, actually, or if it's just going to be relegated to ME3 (which isn't a bad thing, either, of course).  If we visit Palaven I can definitely see it coming up.  Also, I agree with you about meeting Shep as an equal and not using her as a crutch.  He hasn't done so so far, though, and I don't think BW will take him down that path...at least I hope not. ^^

[Tootles FTW]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree that Garrus does great work with Shepard. That is part of the problem. The times he tried to do things on his own post Shepard, he fails. This may make him think he can't do it on his own. I want him with Shepard because he wants to be there. Not because he thinks "I would fail on my own so this is the best I can do." And as long as he thinks he can't do it than he is never going to do his best work even under Shepard. He needs to be able to do something on his own steam so it will work out and he can prove to himself that he can get it done. Than he can help Shepard with confidence and do an even better job. The problem is that I think on his own, he is unlikely to go out and try again so long is Shepard is around because if he ties himself to Shepard he feels like he won't fail. However, if Shepard pushes him to go out on his own, it can also lead to problems like "where did you learn all this about me?" and "are you saying you don't need/want me here?" and "the only reason I pulled it together is because Shepard gave me a push. I still didn't really do it myself." You see what I mean? This is a nasty situation. It's not an unsolvable one, but it is complicated and it isn't pretty.

I think this is why placing Garrus as the fire team leader works so well, especially if you look at it from the perspective of a LI.  Shepard is showing her absolute trust in him by singling him out as a leader - he never throws his name in the ring, you notice (either because he is leaving it up to Shepard entirely or because he still harbors some doubts about his leadership capabilities?) - and it gives Garrus a time to shine on his own & prove himself for his own merit, outside of Shepard.  

[JulianP]

Hey Garrus fans,

I have a Garrus x FemShep WIP that is taking me forever to do (I haven't had much practice; it's all trial and error here).  At this rate, it'll be a long, long time before I can share the finished thing, so if you want to look at it now and maybe help me feel a bit less lonely as a struggle with it hour after hour:

Julian's Garrus & Femshep Work-In-Progress

It's totally SFW and a little romantic but not necessarily so. 

[Tootles FTW]

JulianP wrote...

Julian's Garrus & Femshep Work-In-Progress 

This looks great!  I like how his leg is brought up, too, almost as if he's shielding her? 

[JulianP]

Tootles FTW wrote...

JulianP wrote...

Julian's Garrus & Femshep Work-In-Progress 

This looks great!  I like how his leg is brought up, too, almost as if he's shielding her? 

Ah, you understand me

I wanted to add just a hint of initiative there, so it's not like Shepard is always the leader in the relationship.  Also wanted to suggest something like a mutual apology, supplication, or self-offering as well as humility and responsibility. 

What do you think, should I eventually paint the background, or leave it plain?

[LessThanKate]

In regards to the dossier business, Garrus not being able to reach full potential under Shepard's shadow, it was a disturbing thought, and I wondered what such an implication could mean for the future of the relationship between the two. But then I realized a lot of the dossier summaries had a rather negative spin on them. Jack is easily manipulated, Samara and Tali's motives make them predictable, so on and so forth. I would imagine, if anything, Shepard would continuously help Garrus see how much worth he has.



And I suppose reading all this personal info seems...sneaky, though I'm pretty sure it's solely for the enjoyment of the gamer.



Crying...I do like the idea of some emotional release, things really coming to an end for what I imagine to be a huge finale, but aside from the fact that we're not even sure turians can cry, I'm not sure I'm for it. Shaking his head in shame, burying his face in his hands...these could be acceptable substitutes. As mentioned before with the "head bump", it may be less memorable if it's something conventional and predictable. Plus, with the whole "oil slicks" things Bioware's got going on...

[Lovestories]

@ JulianP if I was going to paint the background I do it in colours telling of the mood/feelings you want to express, or dark to highlight the couple in the middle, but thats just me. I'm sure whatever you do will look lovely I likey already lol

[Eradyn]

@Ragabul: That then becomes a problem of Garrus, not of Shepard or reality. And Garrus did choose, willingly, to join Shepard...I don't think he's going to be thinking, "oh, I'm with Shepard. Damn her she's better than me. I'm so useless."



While he's pretty hard on himself with all the things that have gone wrong, I don't think he's unaware of his own abilities. I think he knows he's damned good at what he does...but I also think he's very disappointed that things have fallen apart as they have. He wants things to go right...not because he is an incompetent failure (or believes himself to be), but because life sucks and he wants that stupid cloud to blow away already.

[Eradyn]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...
I really want Garrus to open up about his background and family in ME3; not to use Shepard as an emotional crutch, but to let her know that she is an important part of his life now.  He doesn't need her support, but I don't think it's bad if he wants it.  I would be mad if my significant other withheld information from me, especially something as dire as the health of his mother.

But herein, we have a problem.  He hasn't said anything.  If it never comes up then it doesn't matter I guess.  But what if it DOES come up in some way that Garrus is obligated to tell Shep about in ME?.  We know that his mother has been sick for a while now.  Shep could very well ask, why did you wait until the bottom fell out of this to tell me about it?  If this information in the dossiers is anything but player FYI than it can potentially cause all kinds of problems.  Perhaps it is FYI, but consider this.  Garrus' files actually open new plotlines.  So do Miranda's.  The others don't really tell us anything we didn't already know that isn't just FYI or funny.  Legion's gamerscore?  Funny but no new plotlines.  Tali having trouble with her dad's death?  Informative but no new plotlines.  (Plus isn't that obvious already?)  In other people's files we mostly get a lot of proof of what we already know or suspect.  Miranda and Garrus files are the only ones that reveal new problems out of the blue that we didn't really anticipate.  It could still just be FYI.  But it's darn good storytelling material that could be exploited if Bioware had a mind as well.

Give it time.  It's recently released DLC.  If we don't see it brought up in future DLC or ME3, then that'll tell us more of what we need to know.

[Tootles FTW]

@Julian - I am not an artsy person. I'm sure I'd think it'd look lovely with and without a background!  Finish the figures and see how you feel about it.

@Ragabul - I agree, there is a lot of story potential in the dossiers and I'd like to think they would bring this up in ME3, I just don't think they'll bring up the fact that Shepard is privvy to this information before Garrus/Miranda etc. choose to reveal it.  Consider that several gamers will not have access to the DLC via Live, or simply choose not to purchase it. 

I honestly don't think Garrus would be mad, though, if that's where your train of thought is going?  Unless Shepard revelaed her knowledge in a hostile/accustatory fashion (aka "Why didn't you tell me?!")...but my femShep would never do that.

[Liec]

Ack... now you're making me think that ME3 will be full of Angst. Well, as long as Shepard doesn't push Garrus so far to reach his potential that he ends up dumping her to become the king of Ferelden...

[J4N3_M3]

JulianP wrote...

Hey, is anyone here a Septimus Oraka fan? Just watched a friend play that encounter yesterday, and I just like him more every time.

I love that guy. He's such a loser for being all petty about being shot down or dumped (which do you think it is?) by Sha'ira, but it's so much fun that this apparently competent leader is also so unabashedly heartbroken over some girl. He's so refreshingly frank about it all.

His lines are so funny and well-delivered, too. His woe-is-me tone of voice... His calling Wrex ugly... His inviting the troops to "kiss [his] leathery backside" (Aha! Turian ass is ... leathery!) ... How there's only five people in the damn galaxy who talk to him "like that" ... His double cold showers...

In spite of his having been immature about it, part of me keeps wanting to see settle down with Sha'ira happily ever after. He's so crazy about her. Might not be so cute in real life, but sure is cute in-game.

Would it be too much to wish that there were YouTube documentation of all his possible lines with all possible squadmates?

ask and you shall receive....well, at least the first part, paragon, Kaidan & Garrus as squaddies ^.^ General Septimus

As for Garrus and failure: I think "failure" is mostly a point of view thing. Looking at the whole thing from Shepard's pov he/she would have failed if she'd been on her own. But she's had the help of her team although she was the one making decisions. I'm pretty sure, if she got them killed in the second game, Shep would have considered this as failure too no matter if the mission itself has been a success or not.