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[Tootles FTW]

I also have to comment, does Garrus ever specifically state that he desires a leadership-type role for himself? From what I understand he just hopes to accomplish good through his life and work, his exact role is secondary. If there had been a pre-existing vigilante squad on Omega I think Garrus would have readily joined up in a ancillary position; he only became the leader of the squad out of necessity. Not to say he isn't good at leadership (because, durr, he is), it just doesn't seem to be an end-goal for him.

[Tootles FTW]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Am I coming off as doomsaying? I'm not meaning it that way. In fact I am thrilled to death with all of this. The storytelling and roleplaying potential are staggering. Not to mention it gives me a heap of scenarios to speculate about. I am in my element with all this. This information could culminate in like four hundred awesome and really intense situations in ME3. I would LOVE that.

Nah, you're instigating conversation!    Until the next DLC comes out, we only have the ME2 and LotSB material to hash and rehash and rehash.

Liec said...

Ack... now you're making me think that ME3 will be full of Angst. Well, as long as Shepard doesn't push Garrus so far to reach his potential that he ends up dumping her to become the king of Ferelden...

Didn't Casey Hudson say ME3 was going to be more light-hearted?  Well, as light-heated as possible armaggedon can get...
P.S. That's why I roll a Cousland, baby.  Alistair is dumping me for nobody! 

Modifié par Tootles FTW, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:27 .

[Alexine]

I don't think Garrus is looking for leadership skills too. He sort of talked about it when he discussed how he got his team in Omega. His true goal was to stop the injustice of Omega, and accepted help whenever he could get it, leading to strong leadership skills.

[Lovestories]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Am I coming off as doomsaying? I'm not meaning it that way. In fact I am thrilled to death with all of this. The storytelling and roleplaying potential are staggering. Not to mention it gives me a heap of scenarios to speculate about. I am in my element with all this. This information could culminate in like four hundred awesome and really intense situations in ME3. I would LOVE that.

I did find some of the reading depressing, BUT its true, I love it. aspects of Garrus are depressing can't help that, and I agree with what you're saying pretty much. Its true how do you deal with Garrus's "issue(s)" Send him on his own? what if his lack of faith in himself causes him to fail again.

Garrus can lead the 2nd team, but its not like he volunteered to do it, he did it well yes, but the motivation of not wanting to fail Shepard rather than believing in himself that he wouldnt fail might of been there.
But sticking with Sheps's has its problems too.

Modifié par Lovestories, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[J4N3_M3]

Lovestories wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Am I coming off as doomsaying? I'm not meaning it that way. In fact I am thrilled to death with all of this. The storytelling and roleplaying potential are staggering. Not to mention it gives me a heap of scenarios to speculate about. I am in my element with all this. This information could culminate in like four hundred awesome and really intense situations in ME3. I would LOVE that.

I did find some of the reading depressing, BUT its true, I love it. aspects of Garrus are depressing can't help that, and I agree with what you're saying pretty much. Its true how do you deal with Garrus's "issue(s)" Send him on his own? what if his lack of faith in himself causes him to fail again.

Garrus can lead the 2nd team, but its not like he volunteered to do it, he did it well yes, but the motivation of not wanting to fail Shepard rather than believing in himself that he wouldnt fail might of been there.
But sticking with Sheps's has its problems too.

only because he doesn't run around bragging about his leadership potential doesn't mean he knows it's there. even a leader knows, that you can get your whole team killed and still have leadership potential. just look at the ruthless background story. shep is after all still a good leader, although almost his/her whole team died on Torfan.

[Eradyn]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...
Ragabul - I agree, there is a lot of story potential in the dossiers and I'd like to think they would bring this up in ME3, I just don't think they'll bring up the fact that Shepard is privvy to this information before Garrus/Miranda etc. choose to reveal it.  Consider that several gamers will not have access to the DLC via Live, or simply choose not to purchase it. 

True, but the problem still remains even if Shep has never read the dossiers.  Garrus: "Um, Shep my mother has a horrible sickness and a situation has come up where I really need to get home and deal with that."  Shepard:  "That's horrible!  How long has she been sick?"  Garrus: "Uh, a few years now."  Shepard: "And you never told me this?"  Or else,  Shepard: "Hey, Garrus, since we are on Palaven why don't we go see your family?"  Garrus:  "Well, that's not a good idea."  Shepard: "Why?"  Garrus: "My mother has a horrible sickeness and my sister thinks I abandoned them because I haven't been home helping but was off killing mercs instead.  They don't even know about the gunship and my scars."  Shepard: "Why didn't you tell me this?"  The fact remains that Garrus has some really big problems that he never told Shep about.  If those problems ever show up in some sizable way, this could cause questions.  That's all I mean.

Wow...I would never want my Shepard to approach or answer it that way with him.  I, in RL, would never say such a thing under those circumstances...that would be too insensitive. D: "Why didn't you tell me this?" Uhh...more important things at the time, not relevent at the time, not an appropriate time...Pick one or another.

Yeah, Garrus has problems.  Shepard has problems.  Jacob, Thane, Tali, blah blah blah, they all have problems.  Shepard isn't their personal psychiatrist...that's more Kelly's job.  Garrus would likely have figured, "now's not the time, let's focus on the immediate."  I mean, it's not like his mother dying is something that Shepard needs to know RIGHT THEN (and really, this is a limitation of game design and planning, not character faults).  I mean...what, would that somehow negatively affect their relationship if Shepard knew? I'd like to think that, at least and certainly after considering her conversation in LotSB, she's more selfless than you give her credit for.

Again, the DLC just came out.  The devs themselves said they're pretty much writing the details as they go, they only have a basic story outline set in stone.  In ME3 or future DLC, I'm sure this will be addressed and/or resolved, one way or another, but I just don't see this as a "big dark secret" Garrus is keeping from Shepard for whatever reason...certainly not one that will cause a train-wreck down the road.  He's dealing with it and helping his mother in his own way, as much as he can...all while saving the universe.  I think we need to give Garrus some credit here. ^^

Modifié par Eradyn, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:40 .

[Lovestories]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Lovestories wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Am I coming off as doomsaying? I'm not meaning it that way. In fact I am thrilled to death with all of this. The storytelling and roleplaying potential are staggering. Not to mention it gives me a heap of scenarios to speculate about. I am in my element with all this. This information could culminate in like four hundred awesome and really intense situations in ME3. I would LOVE that.

I did find some of the reading depressing, BUT its true, I love it. aspects of Garrus are depressing can't help that, and I agree with what you're saying pretty much. Its true how do you deal with Garrus's "issue(s)" Send him on his own? what if his lack of faith in himself causes him to fail again.

Garrus can lead the 2nd team, but its not like he volunteered to do it, he did it well yes, but the motivation of not wanting to fail Shepard rather than believing in himself that he wouldnt fail might of been there.
But sticking with Sheps's has its problems too.

only because he doesn't run around bragging about his leadership potential doesn't mean he knows it's there. even a leader knows, that you can get your whole team killed and still have leadership potential. just look at the ruthless background story. shep is after all still a good leader, although almost his/her whole team died on Torfan.

Yeah, but  I think after what happened with his team he thinks less of his abilities. I'm sure he knows he can lead a team but I don't think he has as much faith in his abilities as he did before.

[Tootles FTW]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

No, I don't think he has to be a leader to be happy.  I do think he wants to make a difference.  He is doubting his own ability to do this.  Consider: Shepard "I couldn't do this without you Garrus."  Garrus: "Sure, you could.  Not as stylishly of course."  And then he changes the subject.  Not to mention he uses bravado as a distraction to cover up other things about 80% of the time.  The message is clear.  He thinks Shepard would have succeeded regardless of whether or not he was there.  And he feels like most of what he tries on his own falls through.  I can see where this would cause him some problems.

Okay, NOW you're being a doomsayer, haha!  I love that line, and how you describe it makes me sad in the pants.    It's amazing how multilayered Garrus is as a character, which speaks to both the writing and BK's vocal performance.  

From my perspective I think that line/moment was a bit of the "old" Garrus peeking through now that Sidonis is laid to rest (figuratively or literally), but I completely see how you came to your interpretation and it's entirely possible.

[J4N3_M3]

We can't forget in all this, that Garrus has gone through a different way of training than Shep has. Dr. Saleon was the first time, he thought, he'd failed on the job. Hunting Saren has been important to him because he wanted to do good and prove himself. If you went the renegade route in ME1, Garrus was all excited about it and told you that this was the reason why he'd wanted to become a spectre because there was no red tape to slow him down. If you went the paragon way, he started arguing with you about the reasons to capture Saren alive instead of just killing him. You basically had to talk some sense into his brain. And he would see your point eventually. Yet, Garrus was a young hot head in ME1. He was in no way ready to become a Spectre and I think, Shep was the first one to be patient enough to discuss things with him. I don't think during his training before he got things explained but just given orders and had to follow them, without actually understanding why. But when Shep took her time to explain why this and that, he could eventually evolve from the hot head to a cool mind, that thinks about things first, and goes through all options first before acting. He even shows that in the first game already when he thanks you. And I think, a lot of people, not just Garrus, have that problem. Orders work to make people do things. But to get them done the right way, people have to understand why they have to be done a certain way. And with Garrus it worked greatly.

I believe, that after Shep's death and going back to C-Sec, he lacked a mentor who took the time of explaining but the time on the Normandy already had a great impact on his personal development.

Also, Garrus would have succeeded if he hadn't been betrayed by Sidonis. No leader can withstand betrayal. And he will see that, too, eventually.

Modifié par J4N3_M3, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:53 .

[lovgreno]

All the weird and terrible things Shepard and crew has been through has probably made them all a bit messed up in the head. They are all strong individuals but they are only human, turian, quarian, etc...That is probably something that will come back to make things difficult for them in a few years. Sadly not uncommon for soldiers in real life too. That is the price they pay for bravery. But for now all that have to wait. They have to stay strong untill the reaper threat is over.



They can't all rely on Shepard being their emotional crutch. It's certanly not Garrus style to make his own problems someone elses, for good and bad.



But for now I think a brofist, bad joke, hug or in some cases a bit more is enough for them to stay sane.



Hmmm... Shepard should be able to teach the aliens on board the brofist by the way. But Mordin probably already knows it being the expert on alien cultures that he is.

[JulianP]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

JulianP wrote...
Would it be too much to wish that there were YouTube documentation of all his possible lines with all possible squadmates?

ask and you shall receive....well, at least the first part, paragon, Kaidan & Garrus as squaddies ^.^ General Septimus

Ah!  Thanks!

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Timerider42 wrote...

Considering Halo: Reach comes out tomorrow, does anyone know where that image of Garrus holding a Halo: Reach box and the caption "Garrus has reach" is?

Someone do this.....please.

[REMspace]

I made this pic with Photoshop in my spare time. It's not Halo Reach, but this seems just as cute...

[Nilfalasiel]

Concerning the debate around Garrus' dossier, one thing Garrus has to understand is that no, he doesn't actively make things fail. C-Sec didn't work out, but probably not because of anything he actively did. He simply couldn't take the backslide about the Reapers, and the fact that nothing seemed to be done properly after Sovereign's defeat. It wasn't up to him to make it work out (or at least, not solely up to him), and there was nothing he could have done on his own to set things right. There was nothing anybody could have done on their own to set things right.

Same thing with Omega: he did not make the whole thing go to hell in a handbasket on his own. I don't think Sidonis ever intended to betray him. It wasn't premeditated, he simply buckled under duress. Garrus couldn't have foreseen it, and he certainly couldn't have stopped it. 'Course, being the boyscout he is, he thinks he could have, and I can totally relate to that, as I have the same problem: I tend to think I could have done something to remedy a situation, when, in fact, it wasn't up to me at all. Or at least, not solely up to me. Garrus did everything right; it's just that "no man is an island" (thank you, Donne), and nothing - whether it be good or bad - ever happens because of just one person. You need a team to succeed, just as you need a team to fail.

This has nothing to do with him being overshadowed by Shepard or not. In fact, I think the best thing Shepard can do is demonstrate to him, at some point, on a cool head, just how much he DID achieve on Omega, all things considered. Being the impatient, impulsive person he is, naturally, he thinks he didn't even make a dent on Omega's situation. And yes, that's true. But 1) I don't think anything short of a full-scale civil war or a nuclear bomb could fix Omega (since it doesn't even have proper law enforcement), and 2) considering that, the fact that Garrus managed to earn himself a nickname like Archangel from the locals in only a few months tells me that he did a brilliant job, given the odds. He simply had the misfortune of choosing the most hopeless cause he could find, and that could partly be blamed on a mixture of grief and anger after Shepard's death. Shepard couldn't have fixed Omega on her/his own either: Garrus isn't less capable than her/him. Simply by comparison, Shepard also lost a crewmember on Virmire and quite a few crewmembers when the Normandy got zonked. And, depending on personal background, she/he could've seen people under her/his command get killed at Torfan, at Elysium, at Akuze. Any of those situations can easily be paralleled with Garrus' time on Omega and could be helpful for putting things in perspective. From that point of view, I don't think being on Shepard's team is detrimental to him. On the contrary.

Of course, you can argue that this is all well and good, but, at the end of the day, Shepard's the big boss, the one in command. But that's getting down to the level of petty rivalry (and if Garrus gives in to that, well...I'd lose a lot of respect for his character) and can be solved with simply sharing responsibility. I think that's the one thing Garrus needs, rather than leadership per se: a high-stake job he can successfully accomplish and see short-term results. Giving him the possibility to lead the fireteam during the SM goes a long way towards achieving this, and they could expound on it more in ME3. And, of course, if he manages to look back on Omega with a cool head, he'll see that this was also an example of him accomplishing way more than your average Joe could.

I'm gonna do an Ashley here and quote Frost:

"Oh, when to the heart of man
Was it ever less than a treason
To go with the drift of things,
To yield with a grace to reason
And bow, and accept the end
Of a love or a season?"

In other words, letting go. In this case, for Garrus, letting go of the idea that he can control everything and that everything, in a given situation, depends on him. It doesn't need to be harder than that. But of course, paradoxically enough, this is also one of the hardest lessons for anyone to learn, because logic is all well and good, but it's hard to put your emotions aside, especially for someone like Garrus. I don't put it past him that he may get it into his head that he needs Shepard to succeed, and that without her/him, things just explode in his face. He may even momentarily resent her/him for it. But it doesn't need to permanently sour things, and it's really not an insoluble problem, because it's not true: he's not overshadowed by Shepard, he's simply learning things the hard way. Just as Shepard herself/himself did, back in the day. It's a healthy dose of realism he needs, not to get out from Shepard's shadow (which isn't all that ubiquitous to start with).

As for how Shepard will handle the knowledge from the Shadow Broker dossiers...I haven't played LotSB yet, but I like to think, from an RP perspective, that Shepard would've asked permission before actually consulting those dossiers. She/He's not stupid: she/he knows that there's sensitive, personal information in there. Something as simple as "are you ok with me checking that file?", and if the squaddie in question says "yes" (which anybody whose loyalty Shepard has earned most likely would), then she/he does so. I know that they probably don't realize what exactly is in those files. But if they trust Shepard enough to read them, then they trust her/him enough to explain whatever she/he may find in there. Again, no idea how this is going to be handled in ME3. But it makes sense to me that Shepard wouldn't just go nosing around and not tell anybody about it. Or, at least, none of my Sheps would.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 14 septembre 2010 - 08:59 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree with you almost entirely, Nilf. What you are saying is what Garrus should be thinking, but whether that is what he is actually thinking is up in the air. I don't think he is thinking that. And now Shepard is even more aware of this problem. Even if he is not thinking those things, the problem remains that he is a good leader and might not develop as fully as he could under Shepard. Maybe Garrus doesn't even realize that, but Shepard has. The question now is since Shepard has learned all this stuff about Garrus, what is she going to do about it? Should she confront him? Should she wait and let him come to her? Should she actively push him as she has in the past to get him to take a particular course of action or should she passively offer advice and then let him make up his own mind? Which of this things is best for him? What does he want? How is the best way to find out what he wants? How should she balance what he wants with what she thinks is best for him? Where does what she wants and what is best for her come into all this? You see what I mean? Complicated situation.  Lots of tricky questions.  I never said is was unsolvable.  In fact, I said the opposite.  That doesn't mean it will be easy, however. And I wouldn't want it to be.  Easy is boring.

Well, if Garrus doesn't actually want to be a leader, then he shouldn't be one, even if he has the potential to be one. Can't force yourself to do something you don't like. And, like I said, I don't think he wants to be a leader so much as to have a job to do and to see short-term results. I don't think Shep should force him into leadership at every possible occasion if that's not something he wants. Of course, if the mission requires it, I'm sure he'll gladly do anything necessary, but that's kind of a moot point.

Concerning his personal issues, he definitely should be shown the information in his dossier, before or after Shep also looks it over. That could be a basis for discussion. But I don't think Shep should get confrontational about it, as many people have said: I'm sure she knows Garrus by now, so she knows how (and perhaps why) he prefers to handle his crap on his own, except when he actively needs her help. Sympathetic and "is there anything I can do to help?" is probably the best way to go, in this case. Family is one thing where it's difficult to judge, because, unlike Sidonis, she doesn't have the same kind (or comparable, at least) information about the situation as he does. And Garrus probably needs time to acclimatize to the fact that he's no longer on his own to deal with these things and that he now has a sympathetic shoulder to lean on, literally or not.

[J4N3_M3]

None of my sheps would give the dossiers to any of their crew members to read first before they do. We don't know because its never said in the game how much all of them know about shep already. The shadow brokers been collecting information about everyone in the past and I'm sure that included shep as well. We don't know if any of the crew has ever gotten info from him about shep. They might have, including personal files so from my sheps' pov reading about their crew is something normally even if this means invading privacy. None of my sheps will confront the crew about what they've read if the crew decides to talk to shep, they will act as if this is news and try to offer help and advice. I would do the same in real life.

[Nilfalasiel]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

None of my sheps would give the dossiers to any of their crew members to read first before they do. We don't know because its never said in the game how much all of them know about shep already. The shadow brokers been collecting information about everyone in the past and I'm sure that included shep as well. We don't know if any of the crew has ever gotten info from him about shep. They might have, including personal files so from my sheps' pov reading about their crew is something normally even if this means invading privacy. None of my sheps will confront the crew about what they've read if the crew decides to talk to shep, they will act as if this is news and try to offer help and advice. I would do the same in real life.

I'm pretty sure ALL of the squaddies have looked up info about Shepard at some point or other, but I don't see a reason for them to go see the SB about it, unless they were actively trying to sabotage her/him. He seems to be dealing in sensitive/blackmail material. In any case, even if they did do it at some point, I don't think perpetuating distrust among the team is a good team-building move. So who cares if they have info on Shep that they don't want to share? (highly unlikely for the loyal squaddies, at least IMO) My Sheps won't withhold that kind of info from them. Especially not from someone like Garrus or Tali, who have been around longer than the others, and especially not if Garrus or Tali have been romanced. I think it's important to establish trust if you want your team to be fully committed to your cause, in the situation Shep is in.

From a different perspective, if shown that Shep trusts them enough to show them sensitive info about themselves, it might make them more forthcoming to share any similar info they could have about Shep. But again, the only people I would expect to have such info would be Miranda and Jacob, and I'd only expect disloyal/rejected Miranda to try to get some use out of it. Disloyal/Rejected Jack is also likely, but she hasn't been out of jail for very long, and I think she'd be too paranoid about getting used by the SB to do it. Plus, I don't think she has the money to afford his services.

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

At some point, the poor guy has to be given his head.

That made me giggle more than it should have

But yeah, I'm not saying Garrus should be humoured on everything that gets into his head, but something like leadership is a bit more personal than choosing whether to shoot someone or not. I think Shep can be more hands off in the former case than in the latter one.

I do agree that it's important for him to grow, and that it's important for him to do it on his own (as in, in his own head). All Shep can do is provide encouragement/guidance, but in the end, choosing to accept this guidance and learn from it is entirely up to Garrus himself. And, in the end, who is Shep to know 100% for certain what's best for him?

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 14 septembre 2010 - 10:42 .

[Homebound]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree with you almost entirely, Nilf. What you are saying is what Garrus should be thinking, but whether that is what he is actually thinking is up in the air. I don't think he is thinking that. And now Shepard is even more aware of this problem. Even if he is not thinking those things, the problem remains that he is a good leader and might not develop as fully as he could under Shepard. Maybe Garrus doesn't even realize that, but Shepard has. The question now is since Shepard has learned all this stuff about Garrus, what is she going to do about it? Should she confront him? Should she wait and let him come to her? Should she actively push him as she has in the past to get him to take a particular course of action or should she passively offer advice and then let him make up his own mind? Which of this things is best for him? What does he want? How is the best way to find out what he wants? How should she balance what he wants with what she thinks is best for him? Where does what she wants and what is best for her come into all this? You see what I mean? Complicated situation.  Lots of tricky questions.  I never said is was unsolvable.  In fact, I said the opposite.  That doesn't mean it will be easy, however. And I wouldn't want it to be.  Easy is boring.

Well, if Garrus doesn't actually want to be a leader, then he shouldn't be one, even if he has the potential to be one. Can't force yourself to do something you don't like. And, like I said, I don't think he wants to be a leader so much as to have a job to do and to see short-term results. I don't think Shep should force him into leadership at every possible occasion if that's not something he wants. Of course, if the mission requires it, I'm sure he'll gladly do anything necessary, but that's kind of a moot point.

Concerning his personal issues, he definitely should be shown the information in his dossier, before or after Shep also looks it over. That could be a basis for discussion. But I don't think Shep should get confrontational about it, as many people have said: I'm sure she knows Garrus by now, so she knows how (and perhaps why) he prefers to handle his crap on his own, except when he actively needs her help. Sympathetic and "is there anything I can do to help?" is probably the best way to go, in this case. Family is one thing where it's difficult to judge, because, unlike Sidonis, she doesn't have the same kind (or comparable, at least) information about the situation as he does. And Garrus probably needs time to acclimatize to the fact that he's no longer on his own to deal with these things and that he now has a sympathetic shoulder to lean on, literally or not.

lol spent the last half hour reading your Garrus joke sig.