29107 réponses à ce sujet

[Alexine]

I don't think Garrus would betray Shepard. They had a student-mentor relationship (and later lover relationship). If they pull something like Jade Empire, then I'm flying the coop.



I don't think Shepard will truly be the total evil villain. That means butchering people for no reason. Renegade Shepard butchers people if it's the quickest way to get to a goal.

[Collider]

That is what I like about Paragon and Renegade (although the persuasion system is flawed): it's not "good" and "evil." It's two different ways of doing (most of the time) the same thing or two paths to the same goal.

[Tootles FTW]

Maybe I'm confused, but in the crisis moment if you side with Legion isn't he simply sending a warning to the geth that the flotilla plans on attacking? The quarians seem to be the ones actively pursuing an endless conflict with the geth, when - as Shep him/herself can even suggest - they could be spending their resources looking for another homeworld. I know it would take them a generation or two to acclimate their immune systems, but it just seems petty to allow your people to drift in space whilst licking the wounds inflicted by your forefathers (geez, I made that sound sappy).

I think I'm probably meta-ing it at this point, but knowing that the quarians were the ones who instigated the entire war, only to villify the "victims" because they had the nerve to win, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Or maybe I watch too much Battlestar Galactica, haha.

I really didn't mean for this to turn into a Tali/quarian-rant, though. My friend is a Talimancer, and we often get into mini-fights over this same subject.

Edit: GARRUS!

Modifié par Tootles FTW, 02 juillet 2010 - 10:31 .

[Alexine]

BW keeps that pattern quite a lot in their games. Make something that's not completely good, nor something completely bad.



Thinking about it, the paragon and renegade system heavily remind me of Jade Empire's Open Palm and Closed Fist philosophies. I think they piggybacked that idea into Mass Effect (Mac Walters and Drew Karpyshyn did write JE). Also, I tend to notice some similarities between certain characters from Jade Empire to Mass Effect. Grunt is Black Whirlwind. Kang the Mad is Mordin. Skye is Kaidan. Silk Fox is Miranda. Dawn Star is Liara.



As for Garrus? I think the closest is Abbot Song/Sagacious Zu mix for Jade Empire comparison.

[Tootles FTW]

I played Jade Empire for the first time a couple months ago (thank you, XBox Marketplace!) and I think Skye is a little bit more similar to ME2 Garrus, actually. Garrus became a bit of a flirt, which is totally Skye, plus he's the only crewmate with a sense of humor.

[Mentatzoee]

I guess its a pattern that you can see repeated in a lot of games, or even more, in a lot of aspects of real life itself.

I would find hard to say this or that individual is completely evil or completely good, it's just they make the decisions they make according to a certain accumulation of circumstances that in yuxtaposition with the person their story has made they become makes everything look like it's closer to good or evil.



Things never happen alone or by itself, and even an act that could be considered as paragon/renegade is just an approach chosen by a certain circumstances. An earthborn Shepard may have seen the roughest way of life, and may be more used to threaten people to get what he/she wants, even if he/she doesn't mean to harm that particular person, it's just he/she thinks that if he/she doesn't act this way, things may go worse.



Aside from this, I agree with Garrus never ever betraying Shepard.

I can see him trying to put him/her into the "right" track, as he/she did with Garrus in a certain moment, but never ever turning his back on him/her.

[Collider]

Tootles FTW wrote...

Maybe I'm confused, but in the crisis moment if you side with Legion isn't he simply sending a warning to the geth that the flotilla plans on attacking?

Since this is off topic I'll just say a few things and return to Garrus:
Well for one thing, the Flotilla isn't planning on attacking. They're simply considering it. The Admiralty Board is split 2/2. The whole issue with Legion hacking Tali's omnitool was that he was going to send the location of the Migrant Fleet to the Geth.

The quarians seem to be the ones actively pursuing an endless conflict with the geth, when - as Shep him/herself can even suggest - they could be spending their resources looking for another homeworld. I know it would take them a generation or two to acclimate their immune systems, but it just seems petty to allow your people to drift in space whilst licking the wounds inflicted by your forefathers (geez, I made that sound sappy).

I think I'm probably meta-ing it at this point, but knowing that the quarians were the ones who instigated the entire war, only to villify the "victims" because they had the nerve to win, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Or maybe I watch too much Battlestar Galactica, haha.

It's a little more complex than that. AI is illegal in Citadel space - meaning that if the Council had learned that the Geth evolved to develop sapience, the Quarians would be punished and probably heavily sanctioned if not worse. I can understand the Quarian government therefore ordering a shut down of the Geth in order to protect themselves.

On the surface, you could say the Quarians started the entire war, but war is something mutual. After the Quarians ordered the shutdown, the Geth went berserk and started killing every Quarian in sight. They killed indiscriminately, including women and children. You can imagine how the Quarians may have felt about their children being killed by the Geth.

Only 17 million Quarians survived the whole ordeal - meaning that the Geth killed more than 99% of the Quarian population If the Geth had attempted to make peace instead of killing innocent children, it's unlikely that so many Quarians would have died.

Afterward, the Council did what the Quarians expected and stripped them of any political representation because the Geth had developed sapience. So I am not surprise they are a bit bitter.

Legion was the Geth's only attempt at making peace and telling organics that they didn't want to kill them - so they essentially took 300 years to for them to try it.

Right now, it falls to the Geth to have make peace. Legion needs to tell the Quarians that they aren't killer robots wanting to kill everyone (anymore, anyways) - because all of the evidence most Quarians know puts them to being killer robots. As it is, any foreign ship that enters Geth territory gets blown up by the geth on sight and indiscriminately - so the Geth either need to fix that or tell organics that they're peaceful. After which, it's the Quarian's job to accept that. If you have both Legion & Tali alive and you did their loyalty missions (and didn't side with Legion), there should be an opportunity to steer the two races towards peace.

-

Anyways, yes, paragon and renegade isn't good and evil. Even if renegade Shepard can be quite the jerk, at the end of the day he or she is still putting their on the line to save the galaxy. So in essence, paragon is the archetypal "hero" wheras renegade may be more along the lines of "antihero."

I'm just curious as to where the idea that Garrus may betray Shepard came from. I will say though - I really hope that Bioware doesn't do another Bible metaphor and make one of the 12 squad mates in ME2 betray you. Not only would that be hardly unexpected, but it would just be irritating. Only Samara and Morinth *may* betray Shepard, IMO. Samara says she'll go after you if you are a certain amount of renegade, and Morinth is basically evil incarnate, so to speak (she is the least defensible squad mate out of all of them, that's for sure).

Otherwise, I could only see betrayal if you do something very contrary to a squad mate's morals. But even then...

[Mentatzoee]

Even if you did something very contrary to his or her morals, it would deceiving if Garrus or Tali betrayed Shepard because of ONE bad choice.

They've been always by his/her side, even when Shepard was gone (and Ash/Kaidan turned their back on him/her).

Modifié par Mentatzoee, 02 juillet 2010 - 11:58 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Collider wrote...

Only 17 million Quarians survived the whole ordeal - meaning that the Geth killed more than 99% of the Quarian population.

Just curious: where did you get the 99% from? I couldn't find an official figure for the pre-war quarian population on the Wiki.

As it is, any foreign ship that enters Geth territory gets blown up by the geth on sight and indiscriminately - so the Geth either need to fix that or tell organics that they're peaceful.

The thing is, there's a high likelihood that a ship entering geth space is trying to either attack them or scout for weaknesses in preparation for an attack. People in the galaxy tend to be hostile to AIs by default, so I can see where the geth are coming from. Of course, it's much too drastic a measure, especially if they don't really feel hostility towards organics, but still.

Also, do we know when the geth started worshipping Sovereign? Did they already know about it before Saren showed up, or was it Saren that introduced them to it? I can't remember if that's ever been explained. But yeah, if the geth had found Sovereign shortly after the war, it would also stand to reason that it would be the heretics blowing ships up and attacking people, since they are actually hostile to organics. 

Anyways, yes, paragon and renegade isn't good and evil. Even if renegade Shepard can be quite the jerk, at the end of the day he or she is still putting their on the line to save the galaxy. So in essence, paragon is the archetypal "hero" wheras renegade may be more along the lines of "antihero."

I don't know, some of the Renegade choices are REALLY toeing the line. I mean, Overlord? I've even heard a few people who usually play Renegade (stephi comes to mind) saying that keeping the project going was just something they couldn't do. I know I'd never be able to do it. Not to mention the random violence such as punching Khalisah Al-Jilaani, for example. If a Renegade Shep is simply practical to the max, putting aside the "fun" factor in punching an obnoxious reporter, I really fail to see the benefits in doing this. Doesn't it just reinforce her point? It's got nothing to do with putting your ass on the line for the galaxy AND it actually weakens your case.

I just often scratch my head at the Renegade choices. Much more so than the Paragon ones (Helena Blake was one of the rare times where I went "...persuade her to change her wicked ways? Is that REALLY going to work...?")

Only Samara and Morinth *may* betray Shepard, IMO. Samara says she'll go after you if you are a certain amount of renegade, and Morinth is basically evil incarnate, so to speak (she is the least defensible squad mate out of all of them, that's for sure).

Samara is a huge liability for a Renegade Shep, definitely. Morinth is a liability to ANYone. I still fail to understand how a Shep who uses even a parcel of her/his common sense rather than her/his hormones could think it's a good idea to recruit her.

Also, Garrus.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 02 juillet 2010 - 12:00 .

[Mentatzoee]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

I don't know, some of the Renegade choices are REALLY toeing the line. I mean, Overlord? I've even heard a few people who usually play Renegade (stephi comes to mind) saying that keeping the project going was just something they couldn't do. I know I'd never be able to do it. Not to mention the random violence such as punching Khalisah Al-Jilaani, for example. If a Renegade Shep is simply practical to the max, putting aside the "fun" factor in punching an obnoxious reporter, I really fail to see the benefits in doing this. Doesn't it just reinforce her point? It's got nothing to do with putting your ass on the line for the galaxy AND it actually weakens your case.

You may be right about this (If I was the one making the choices there I would certainly go the Paragon way for the same reasons you've listed there), but sometimes it could be more accurate for the sake of RPing to make the Renegade choices.

Thinking about the different backgrounds there's of course a way to come up with a reason why Shepard chose to lead her path through the Paragon way, but I don't think it'd be a good idea to hace such a closed ideal of how Shepard is and what should he or she do a certain choice.

Punching a reporter might be a bad way to convince her to write an article in your favour, but maybe a Renegade Shepard hasn't grown this way, or doesn't have the temper, the social abbility, wisdom or charisma (or well... that trait I can't find the name) to know it wouldn't be such a bad idea.

A certain Shepard might be more of the opinion that certain things shouldn't be allowed. Or, well, there are many reasons to explain the existance of a Renegade Shepard, as there are for a Paragon (and I'm more of the Paragonish way of acting).

AND

Garrus is the best.

[Collider]

Just curious: where did you get the 99% from? I couldn't find an official figure for the pre-war quarian population on the Wiki.

Given that they had a homeworld and several colonies, a 5 billion population estimate would be very modest (to put this into context, Earth has 6 billion people). Even something as low as that means that over 99% of the Quarian population died (the Migrant Fleet could only hold 17 million people).

Also, do we know when the geth started worshipping Sovereign? Did they already know about it before Saren showed up, or was it Saren that introduced them to it? I can't remember if that's ever been explained. But yeah, if the geth had found Sovereign shortly after the war, it would also stand to reason that it would be the heretics blowing ships up and attacking people, since they are actually hostile to organics.

I'm fairly certain that the truth geth themselves destroy any ship that shows up in their territory. I believe this is mentioned on the Mass Effect wiki and possibly the in-game codex. The Geth are a very reclusive race. While I understand their paranoia, destroying every ship that comes into their territory isn't really a good way to show that you're open to peace with organics. The Geth are able to communicate with organics, but almost never do. Legion is really the only attempt to do so.

According to the Mass Effect wiki, the Geth (or heretics) started worshipping Sovereign after Saren sought them out. The Reapers were gods and Saren their prophet.

I don't know, some of the Renegade choices are REALLY toeing the line. I mean, Overlord? I've even heard a few people who usually play Renegade (stephi comes to mind) saying that keeping the project going was just something they couldn't do. I know I'd never be able to do it. Not to mention the random violence such as punching Khalisah Al-Jilaani. If a Renegade Shep is simply practical to the max, putting aside the "fun" factor in punching an obnoxious reporter, I really fail to see the benefits in doing this. Doesn't it just reinforce her point? It's got nothing to do with putting your ass on the line for the galaxy AND it actually weakens your case.

I believe I read that Shepard still thinks the project is disgusting when he or she does the renegade route in the overlord DLC. IIRC, Shepard just says that the project is too important to discontinue it or something like that. It's certainly not merciful, but Shepard himself or herself didn't put David (?) on the project in the first place. Anyways, it's not something I would do myself (the renegade route).

I guess what I'm saying is that not all of the renegade choices are just totally and completely evil. A lot of them are morally questionable, but I found destroying the Heretics to be more morally acceptable than brainwashing them (of course, it's a matter of opinion and perspective). The decision to destroy the grabox is another example - it may be rengade but it's also destroying something that may pose a threat to the Alliance and the entire galaxy. I did give Kasumi the box though.

Modifié par Collider, 02 juillet 2010 - 12:15 .

[Collider]

Darth Cheesecake wrote...

Garrus wouldn't betray Shepard.
Geth and Quarians are both at fault for their war.
Garrus is awesome.
Renegade is the hero we need and not the one we deserve.
Paragon is the opposite.
All your problems have been solved.

Thank you. I especially like the "Garrus is awesome"

[Alexine]

I kind of wished we have an 'evil' version. It would be fun alienating everyone.



I just noticed how when you romance a particular character, you really can't influence them, in comparison to Ashley/Kaidan. I suppose there is no reason to influence them, but Garrus is probably the most malleable character. I hope it does affect what happens in ME3 and his actual romance.

[battlechantress]

It sounds like Legion was actually created for the sole purpose of seeking out organics (or at least Shepard) to help bring down the Nazera/Old Machines (based on one of the later conversations with him; yeah technically he's an "it", but I still refer to him as "he", so there). He did say that they only wanted to send one geth out to interact with organics, as they feared sending out multiple geth would give the organics the wrong idea, right? Based on that, I'd say the geth suddenly realized after Saren came along that they needed to work with organics, so maybe they've stopped blowing up non-geth ships that enter their part of space.



I got up waaaay too early again. Urgh. I wonder if Garrus ever needs the turian equivalent of caffeine, or if he really gets a rush out of doing hours of calibrations.

[Collider]

On that note, Alexine.



How much do we want Garrus to be affected by how if Shepard went the paragon or renegade route with him?

[Sialater]

Pacifien wrote...

Since my only gripe (and that's putting it strongly) was the whole biting thing, I suppose I should mention I still read those fics. I don't immediately stop reading them in disgust, I just am pretty sure that those writing them have never been bitten by a cat. Turian bites absc---okay, nevermind.

Well, they don't ALWAYS abcess.  I'm VERY allergic to cat saliva and I don't always swell up in the bitten area.

[Nilfalasiel]

Collider wrote...

Given that they had a homeworld and several colonies, a 5 billion population estimate would be very modest (to put this into context, Earth has 6 billion people). Even something as low as that means that over 99% of the Quarian population died (the Migrant Fleet could only hold 17 million people).

Sounds fair enough, ok.

According to the Mass Effect wiki, the Geth (or heretics) started worshipping Sovereign after Saren sought them out. The Reapers were gods and Saren their prophet.

Ok, so any blowing up that happened before that couldn't be imputed to a schism between the geth.

I believe I read that Shepard still thinks the project is disgusting when he or she does the renegade route in the overlord DLC. IIRC, Shepard just says that the project is too important to discontinue it or something like that. It's certainly not merciful, but Shepard himself or herself didn't put David (?) on the project in the first place. Anyways, it's not something I would do myself (the renegade route).

I guess what I'm saying is that not all of the renegade choices are just totally and completely evil. A lot of them are morally questionable, but I found destroying the Heretics to be more morally acceptable than brainwashing them (of course, it's a matter of opinion and perspective). The decision to destroy the grabox is another example - it may be rengade but it's also destroying something that may pose a threat to the Alliance and the entire galaxy. I did give Kasumi the box though.

Yeah, the decision about the Heretics is another one of the rare Paragon choices that made me pause. Sure, it's Paragon in the greater context of saving the galaxy, but is it really Paragon in the context of the geth themselves?

As for the graybox, I don't think you get any morality points for that one, so the game doesn't consider it a Paragon or a Renegade choice, which may be why there's a Paragon and a Renegade side to both choices. But I did have trouble with that one too. My MainShep let her keep it, my MaleShep destroyed it for her (neutral choice, I think). Dunno what my KaidanShep will do yet.

@ Mentatzoee: I wasn't trying to say that a Renegade Shep is wrong. I was saying that the choices the game gives a Renegade Shep are inconsistent. Some of them genuinely make sense from a "results first" point of view, which seems to mostly be what Renegade Shep is presented as. But some of them, like punching Khalisah, strike me as being the opposite of "results first", since they do more harm than good and serve no purpose in the greater scheme of things.

[Pacifien]

Sialater wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Since my only gripe (and that's putting it strongly) was the whole biting thing, I suppose I should mention I still read those fics. I don't immediately stop reading them in disgust, I just am pretty sure that those writing them have never been bitten by a cat. Turian bites absc---okay, nevermind.

Well, they don't ALWAYS abcess.  I'm VERY allergic to cat saliva and I don't always swell up in the bitten area.

Okay, I was being a little dramatic about it.

And really, most of those abscesses I've had to deal with were on other cats from cat fights. So unless Turians are biting each others butts and not cleaning the bites afterwards, it's not really the best analogy.

The only time I had an issue with a cat bite was from my own cat when the sucker decided the best way to avoid taking a pill was to bite down and then grind his teeth on my finger a bit. But it had the opposite effect because then it was on.

Heh. I can imagine Garrus refusing to take medication. "I'm not sick!" Shepard tackling him, tickling his fringe which causes him to open his mouth, and then shoving the medication down his throat. Only it was a suppository.

I don't think my brain is entirely functional right now.

Modifié par Pacifien, 02 juillet 2010 - 01:47 .

[Brian619]

I know this is old, but anyone here tried talking to Etarn Tiron the weapon shopkeeper after u picked the choice of sacrificing the council? man! my heart totally dropped when he pulled off those racist talks on me, i was like "*jaw dropped*What the hell happened to that funny and friendly turian?". Crap...i knew it was a very bad idea to sacrifice the council and replace it with human only council. *rage* curse my curiosity!

[battlechantress]

That's also the Council you're stuck with if you just start a new character for ME2 (rather than go the import route), so Etarn is less than thrilled with you then too. Yeah, that is quite a switch! "Dang, glad I was never Renegade enough to kill the Council off in the first game!" was basically my line of thought when I met Etarn with my new ME2 character a while back.

[Brian619]

No crap? the default council is human-led? damn! glad i bought ME 1! Etarn is my favorite turian(friendly one of course...) after the bartender guy,Li,Lorik and Garrus.

[Pacifien]

I must be one of those very rare individuals who prefer ME2 with the Council having died in the previous game. There's something about Shepard's notorious reputation haunting him even though he tries to do what's best for the galaxy. The Council and Alliance think he's a traitor. The aliens think he's some human-first individual. Cerberus is simply using. His previous love interest thinks he's betrayed his own morals in the war. All an uphill battle for him. David versus Goliath in every way.

[Pacifien]

Hey, Garrus fans. My Massive Science Experiment has reached a point where I've come to some conclusions about Garrus's role during the Suicide Run. Soooo, here's all things Garrus.

-----

With no shield upgrade, squadmates will die in the following order (unless you take them to the Oculus fight):
Kasumi -> Tali -> Legion -> Thane -> Garrus

With no weapon upgrade, squadmates will die in the following order:
Thane -> Garrus

With Garrus as your Fire Team Leader:
Loyal + Correct Tech Specialist (Loyals Kasumi, Legion, or Tali) -> Tech lives!
Unloyal + Correct Tech Specialist -> Tech DIES!

With the wrong Biotic Specialist, squadmates will die in the following order:
Thane -> Jack -> Garrus

With Garrus as your Distraction Team Leader:
Unloyal -> Garrus DIES!

To hear Garrus give a status report on the defense, the squadmates start reporting in this order:
Thane -> Jack -> Garrus

With a weak Hold the Line score, squadmates start dying in this order:
Unloyals before Loyals
Mordin -> Tali -> Kasumi -> Jack -> Miranda -> Jacob -> Garrus -> Samara -> Legion -> Thane -> Zaeed -> Grunt

Your three strongest Hold the Line defenders:
Garrus, Grunt, Zaeed

Hear Garrus support keeping the Collector Base:
1) Bring him with a squadmate who disagrees with keeping the base (Jack, Jacob, Kasumi, Miranda, Morinth/Samara, Tali, Thane)
2) Tell the Illusive Man the base is an abomination

Catch Garrus falling down the platforms:
1) Garrus's icon on your screen must be on the RIGHT
2) If you are forced to reload, make sure Garrus's icon is still on the RIGHT

Garrus pulls you up onto the Normandy, the order in which squadmates catch Shepard:
(a whole list of squadmates) -> Garrus -> Jack -> Thane
The squadmates who are with Shepard for the final fight will be the ones who pull Shepard up. If one squadmate dies, the other one pulls Shepard up. If they both die, then it will be a squadmate from the defense.

-----

More information found (with more detailed death lists) on The Ultimate Guide for the Omega-4 Mass Relay Mission.

Modifié par Pacifien, 03 juillet 2010 - 06:03 .