That comic is great. especially if you consider that this is Commander Shepard, savior of the citadel, the single most powerful human in the universe...hiding under the sheets.
What the crap could possibly be going on that Shepard has to cower in fear.
Calibrations: Garrus Love and Turian Discussion
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Chimervera
, juin 26 2010 03:45
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#11802
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 05:27
J4N3_M3
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Garrus & Harkin in ME2
and I found the Dr. Saleon quest here - Garrus' line comes up at around 3:25....
and I found the Dr. Saleon quest here - Garrus' line comes up at around 3:25....
#11803
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 05:42
Eradyn
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Shepard's views may be in line with Garrus' own...or wildly different...doesn't make Shepard "older or wiser." Many of Shepard's actions (choices) are rather foolish, realistically, and it's only the magic of "player can do no wrong" that they turn out alright. But I guess it's because, from my perspective, I've never seen the "Student/Teacher" thing. I dunno, for me it's always just been about two equals from different walks of life learning from each other and taking the other's opinions into consideration (and either accepting or rejecting those opinions/conclusions for themselves). This stems from my own worldview where I am very confident in my stances but am still willing to allow and consider others' opinions and experiences, and then incorporate them into myself if I find they have merit.
It's interesting how we can come to very different conclusions about a character's character and have very different perceptions of them.
Garrus' black and white "Code of Hammurabi" may be harsh by our standards...but it is a clear code born of a desire to see equal justice done against criminals who harm others and who often walk away without punishment. Lady Justice and her scales come to mind. There is little room for mercy in such systems...but that doesn't mean Garrus is beyond being able to show mercy. The beauty of the Sidonis mission is that you can help Garrus to tackle a "gray area" (which even he admits his short-coming) by encouraging him to see Sidonis' suffering and then to find it in himself to show mercy.
I interpret his dealings and drives with Saleon and Sidonis differently, it seems, but that's the beauty of it I guess. Saleon was an unethical monster who destroyed lives and walked away freely. While Garrus might be fueled by the desire to get Saleon for getting away, is that really so bad? Considering the core reason that drove him after Saleon in the first place was the salarian's disgusting experiments? One leads to the other and it wasn't simply "bruised ego" that drove Garrus after him.
Sidonis betrayed his entire squad AND Garrus. Which led to all but Garrus, and himself, getting killed. As a turian, one of their core beliefs is to put others first...the team before self. The mission above self. Others before self. Sidonis didn't just betray Garrus and his squad...he betrayed a core "tenant" of what it means to be "turian." His betrayal struck on many levels. Garrus didn't go after Sidonis because of a "bruised ego" or something of the sort...he went after Sidonis to avenge his men and to right a glaring wrong. To balance the scales of justice, if but only by a little.
To say it was just him with a "personal beef to settle" is to come just shy of utterly undermining the character of Garrus and cheapen his loss and suffering. It's to radically sell him short and to almost completely disregard the character we've been shown in the game and told of by the devs. To say that's all or mostly what it is to Garrus would be to warp his character into something unrecognizable.
Is Garrus perfect? No. He has flaws and they are what make him a compelling character. But let's keep to the flaws he actually has and let's not manufacture flaws and "analyze" that which we created. Because then we are no longer discussing or analyzing Garrus...no, we're discussing and "analyzing" a caricature of our own creation that we wrongly call "Garrus."
...Also, I love that comic with Garrus and Shepard in bed, reviewing "educational" vids. XD I could so see that happening. ...Be that a good thing or a bad thing.
It's interesting how we can come to very different conclusions about a character's character and have very different perceptions of them.
Garrus' black and white "Code of Hammurabi" may be harsh by our standards...but it is a clear code born of a desire to see equal justice done against criminals who harm others and who often walk away without punishment. Lady Justice and her scales come to mind. There is little room for mercy in such systems...but that doesn't mean Garrus is beyond being able to show mercy. The beauty of the Sidonis mission is that you can help Garrus to tackle a "gray area" (which even he admits his short-coming) by encouraging him to see Sidonis' suffering and then to find it in himself to show mercy.
I interpret his dealings and drives with Saleon and Sidonis differently, it seems, but that's the beauty of it I guess. Saleon was an unethical monster who destroyed lives and walked away freely. While Garrus might be fueled by the desire to get Saleon for getting away, is that really so bad? Considering the core reason that drove him after Saleon in the first place was the salarian's disgusting experiments? One leads to the other and it wasn't simply "bruised ego" that drove Garrus after him.
Sidonis betrayed his entire squad AND Garrus. Which led to all but Garrus, and himself, getting killed. As a turian, one of their core beliefs is to put others first...the team before self. The mission above self. Others before self. Sidonis didn't just betray Garrus and his squad...he betrayed a core "tenant" of what it means to be "turian." His betrayal struck on many levels. Garrus didn't go after Sidonis because of a "bruised ego" or something of the sort...he went after Sidonis to avenge his men and to right a glaring wrong. To balance the scales of justice, if but only by a little.
To say it was just him with a "personal beef to settle" is to come just shy of utterly undermining the character of Garrus and cheapen his loss and suffering. It's to radically sell him short and to almost completely disregard the character we've been shown in the game and told of by the devs. To say that's all or mostly what it is to Garrus would be to warp his character into something unrecognizable.
Is Garrus perfect? No. He has flaws and they are what make him a compelling character. But let's keep to the flaws he actually has and let's not manufacture flaws and "analyze" that which we created. Because then we are no longer discussing or analyzing Garrus...no, we're discussing and "analyzing" a caricature of our own creation that we wrongly call "Garrus."
...Also, I love that comic with Garrus and Shepard in bed, reviewing "educational" vids. XD I could so see that happening. ...Be that a good thing or a bad thing.
Modifié par Eradyn, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:46 .
#11804
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 05:47
BloodPainter
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very well written, eradyn... i concur totally!
Modifié par BloodPainter, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:47 .
#11805
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 06:49
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Eradyn wrote...
Shepard's views may be in line with Garrus' own...or wildly different...doesn't make Shepard "older or wiser." Many of Shepard's actions (choices) are rather foolish, realistically, and it's only the magic of "player can do no wrong" that they turn out alright. But I guess it's because, from my perspective, I've never seen the "Student/Teacher" thing. I dunno, for me it's always just been about two equals from different walks of life learning from each other and taking the other's opinions into consideration (and either accepting or rejecting those opinions/conclusions for themselves). This stems from my own worldview where I am very confident in my stances but am still willing to allow and consider others' opinions and experiences, and then incorporate them into myself if I find they have merit.
It's interesting how we can come to very different conclusions about a character's character and have very different perceptions of them.
Garrus' black and white "Code of Hammurabi" may be harsh by our standards...but it is a clear code born of a desire to see equal justice done against criminals who harm others and who often walk away without punishment. Lady Justice and her scales come to mind. There is little room for mercy in such systems...but that doesn't mean Garrus is beyond being able to show mercy. The beauty of the Sidonis mission is that you can help Garrus to tackle a "gray area" (which even he admits his short-coming) by encouraging him to see Sidonis' suffering and then to find it in himself to show mercy.
I interpret his dealings and drives with Saleon and Sidonis differently, it seems, but that's the beauty of it I guess. Saleon was an unethical monster who destroyed lives and walked away freely. While Garrus might be fueled by the desire to get Saleon for getting away, is that really so bad? Considering the core reason that drove him after Saleon in the first place was the salarian's disgusting experiments? One leads to the other and it wasn't simply "bruised ego" that drove Garrus after him.
Sidonis betrayed his entire squad AND Garrus. Which led to all but Garrus, and himself, getting killed. As a turian, one of their core beliefs is to put others first...the team before self. The mission above self. Others before self. Sidonis didn't just betray Garrus and his squad...he betrayed a core "tenant" of what it means to be "turian." His betrayal struck on many levels. Garrus didn't go after Sidonis because of a "bruised ego" or something of the sort...he went after Sidonis to avenge his men and to right a glaring wrong. To balance the scales of justice, if but only by a little.
To say it was just him with a "personal beef to settle" is to come just shy of utterly undermining the character of Garrus and cheapen his loss and suffering. It's to radically sell him short and to almost completely disregard the character we've been shown in the game and told of by the devs. To say that's all or mostly what it is to Garrus would be to warp his character into something unrecognizable.
Is Garrus perfect? No. He has flaws and they are what make him a compelling character. But let's keep to the flaws he actually has and let's not manufacture flaws and "analyze" that which we created. Because then we are no longer discussing or analyzing Garrus...no, we're discussing and "analyzing" a caricature of our own creation that we wrongly call "Garrus."
I agree on the teacher thing. I now tend to see it the way you do, as a matter of two equals sharing two different opinions, since I basically share your "worldview".
As for the Saleon thing....this is my opinion outside the judgement of whether it's good or bad, right or wrong. One reason why Garrus wanted to go after him so badly may have been because he was a sick bastard, but Garrus himself admits that it was also for the fact that Saleon got away while Garrus was on duty. Like I said, I am not judging this.
From my personal POV this is just another sign of how much Garrus tends to see some things as his own failure and has problems letting go or putting them past them. There's many movies about FBI agents that spend their whole lives hunting this one serial killer, this monster and even after they retire, they just can't let go. Same with many cops. There's just cases they can't let go because for some reason they are always on their mind. I think, Garrus is something like this. And I wouldn't put it past it many of us if something like this happened in our lives. i mean, one way or the other, everyone carry's some baggage they just can't get rid of, even if it's just a simple grudge against someone. So basically, this whole Saleon thing makes Garrus just ....human.
As for Sidonis: I don't think there is any way of justice for someone selling out others, even if it leads to their death. I'm not a lawyer or anything but where on our planet is any law that would do such a thing justice? So an eye for an eye may not be the best solution but I always understood where Garrus was coming from in the first place. Though after hearing Sidonis out, seeing what this betrayal has done to him, blurrs the line. The person who I thought was nothing but a heartless, selfish coward turned out to be a broken man who would never find peace again. True remorse is a worse punishment than any bullet.
Hence why I oppose death sentence. Sure, not every killer does show remorse for their actions but neither will their victims be brought back to life nor will their death make up for anything what they've done.
#11806
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 07:23
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Lol, Eradyn, why do I have a sneaking suspicion I have rubbed you the wrong way recently?
I don't think Garrus and Shepard's relationship is explicitly Master/Student because Garrus and Shep set out for that to happen. Garrus himself flat out says he came along to see how things were done outside of C-Sec. He encounters one of two things, A) a person who gets things done via a different method than him and explains themselves well or
a person who gets things done via methods he himself has been using. And when I talk about this I am talking about dialog and actions that directly impact Garrus and not to whatever senseless things Shep might be able to do on the side. So Garrus observes something in a person he respects and then his behavior changes or remains the same based on what he observes. I can see how that can be interpreted as "teaching." It's not that Shep is older, wiser, or whatever, but Garrus really did learn from Shepard and let it influence him whether it was intended or not so I don't think it's a completely inaccurate comparison.
I never questioned Garrus' base motivations for most of what he does. I love his motivations. You should see what I just wrote in Collider's group going on about I how I admire him for that very reason. Heck, I"ll copy and paste it: "This is also why I like him, and why so many call him noble I think. He really, really HATES it when the strong exploit the weak and get away with it. I mean it drives him bonkers. I admire that. I wish I had that kind of fiery motivation to get up off my ass and DO something about it."
Also, I agree with his code most of the time. I think the vast majority of people who he thinks of as nasty actually are nasty. Most of the people he sets out to punish deserve to be punished. This isn't my problem. My problem is the state he was in when he went out to punish specifically Saleon and Sidonis.
I really do think his anger with Saleon and Sidonis was largely personal in a way that it wasn't for most of the other people he has "punished" over the years. It was a "persoanl beef" in that respect. I don't mean that he was only doing it to appease his bruised ego. I mean he was doing it for largely personal reasons rather than a general desire to help people and make a difference. Is it wrong or unreasonable for him to be so angry at them and to want justice for wrongs against himself and his friends? No. I never said that. But I maintain that it means he doesn't have the most objective outlook on the situation, and obviously I value objectivity. It means he is so emotionally caught up in the situation that he may have failed to examine it from some other angles, including that killing them might not be the only way for him to get resolution or for justice to be served. It's the reason Shala Raan isn't able to vote at Tali's trial. She's too involved. She's too biased. She's not biased in that she is unreasonable or immoral or crazed or something. She is biased in that she has a deep personal stake in what happens, and it would be next to impossible for her to not let that affect her judgement. I've said it before if there was an option for me to shoot Sidonis, I'd have taken it in a heartbeat. Likewise, if I could let him kill Saleon without saying "this is what it should feel like" or whatever emotional crap Shep says there, I would do it. I want to kill Saleon so he stops hurting people. I'm not entirely convinced that's the only reason Garrus wants to kill him.
I also recognize that Shepard should be doing her best to look at this from Garrus' point of view out of respect for Garrus. This is why I don't get angry with him or lecture him or something for feeling and thinking as he does. I understand why he does it. "This isn't you either" is not a sermon. It's a plea. I can sympathize with the guy without agreeing with him. This is one of the reasons a paragon Shep stops him. She wants him to get resolution and to stop blaming himself, and she thinks killing Sidonis won't help him. She's doing what she thinks is best for her friend. This could be interpreted as not trusting him I suppose, but I don't see it that way.
And Garrus is a grown man. I don't mean to imply he is some juvenile who can't think for himself and needs Shep to do everything for him. If that's the vibe I've been giving off, it's not what I intend. But Garrus is also in a tricky place, especially in ME2. Actually, most of the ME2 crew is in a tricky spot and Shep is the clear head who is supposed to prevail and make sure everyone has got it together. That's kinda the whole plot of the game. It's not that Garrus is spineless or stupid or lacking in ability or confidence. It's that he's had a rough time of it at that moment and maybe having some outside perspective might do him some good. I think the fact that Garrus listens to Shep is in and of itself meaningful. I mean if Garrus is this competent, moral, confident guy that we know him to be than I don't think he would listen to Shep lightly. He listens to Shep because he respects her and thinks she is worth listening to. That's precisely why he allows himself to be swayed in the first place.
I don't think Garrus and Shepard's relationship is explicitly Master/Student because Garrus and Shep set out for that to happen. Garrus himself flat out says he came along to see how things were done outside of C-Sec. He encounters one of two things, A) a person who gets things done via a different method than him and explains themselves well or
a person who gets things done via methods he himself has been using. And when I talk about this I am talking about dialog and actions that directly impact Garrus and not to whatever senseless things Shep might be able to do on the side. So Garrus observes something in a person he respects and then his behavior changes or remains the same based on what he observes. I can see how that can be interpreted as "teaching." It's not that Shep is older, wiser, or whatever, but Garrus really did learn from Shepard and let it influence him whether it was intended or not so I don't think it's a completely inaccurate comparison. I never questioned Garrus' base motivations for most of what he does. I love his motivations. You should see what I just wrote in Collider's group going on about I how I admire him for that very reason. Heck, I"ll copy and paste it: "This is also why I like him, and why so many call him noble I think. He really, really HATES it when the strong exploit the weak and get away with it. I mean it drives him bonkers. I admire that. I wish I had that kind of fiery motivation to get up off my ass and DO something about it."
Also, I agree with his code most of the time. I think the vast majority of people who he thinks of as nasty actually are nasty. Most of the people he sets out to punish deserve to be punished. This isn't my problem. My problem is the state he was in when he went out to punish specifically Saleon and Sidonis.
I really do think his anger with Saleon and Sidonis was largely personal in a way that it wasn't for most of the other people he has "punished" over the years. It was a "persoanl beef" in that respect. I don't mean that he was only doing it to appease his bruised ego. I mean he was doing it for largely personal reasons rather than a general desire to help people and make a difference. Is it wrong or unreasonable for him to be so angry at them and to want justice for wrongs against himself and his friends? No. I never said that. But I maintain that it means he doesn't have the most objective outlook on the situation, and obviously I value objectivity. It means he is so emotionally caught up in the situation that he may have failed to examine it from some other angles, including that killing them might not be the only way for him to get resolution or for justice to be served. It's the reason Shala Raan isn't able to vote at Tali's trial. She's too involved. She's too biased. She's not biased in that she is unreasonable or immoral or crazed or something. She is biased in that she has a deep personal stake in what happens, and it would be next to impossible for her to not let that affect her judgement. I've said it before if there was an option for me to shoot Sidonis, I'd have taken it in a heartbeat. Likewise, if I could let him kill Saleon without saying "this is what it should feel like" or whatever emotional crap Shep says there, I would do it. I want to kill Saleon so he stops hurting people. I'm not entirely convinced that's the only reason Garrus wants to kill him.
I also recognize that Shepard should be doing her best to look at this from Garrus' point of view out of respect for Garrus. This is why I don't get angry with him or lecture him or something for feeling and thinking as he does. I understand why he does it. "This isn't you either" is not a sermon. It's a plea. I can sympathize with the guy without agreeing with him. This is one of the reasons a paragon Shep stops him. She wants him to get resolution and to stop blaming himself, and she thinks killing Sidonis won't help him. She's doing what she thinks is best for her friend. This could be interpreted as not trusting him I suppose, but I don't see it that way.
And Garrus is a grown man. I don't mean to imply he is some juvenile who can't think for himself and needs Shep to do everything for him. If that's the vibe I've been giving off, it's not what I intend. But Garrus is also in a tricky place, especially in ME2. Actually, most of the ME2 crew is in a tricky spot and Shep is the clear head who is supposed to prevail and make sure everyone has got it together. That's kinda the whole plot of the game. It's not that Garrus is spineless or stupid or lacking in ability or confidence. It's that he's had a rough time of it at that moment and maybe having some outside perspective might do him some good. I think the fact that Garrus listens to Shep is in and of itself meaningful. I mean if Garrus is this competent, moral, confident guy that we know him to be than I don't think he would listen to Shep lightly. He listens to Shep because he respects her and thinks she is worth listening to. That's precisely why he allows himself to be swayed in the first place.
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 21 septembre 2010 - 07:49 .
#11807
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 07:56
Kim Shepard
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My Shepards' opinions about Garrus' sense of justice are pretty simple - they're all for it. Even EvilShep, who normally wouldn't bother with criminals as long as they don't bother him, is a big supporter of vengeance and has a real "kill anyone who gets in his way" attitude. A lot of them support Garrus' opinions because they believe those people should be killed too. One of my Shepards, the no-romance insomniac ex-gang member that I mentioned, has a really personal view of that sort of thing. Despite being a criminal, Garrus being a vigilante is something he really agrees with. (He has a really long, complicated history planned out for him, but basically - he became a killer because no one else was doing anything about the real bad guys.) This Shepard can get pretty brutal, like Saren-style brutal. He's a big fan of revenge, and doesn't believe in letting the real bad guys live because it'll just give them the chance to hurt someone else later. He doesn't give second chances. So yeah, he surprisingly gets along really well with the ex-cop.
About the Garrus kills dossier being brutal, I never thought anything of it. The way I imagine the "death by red sand overdose" scene is Garrus shooting a crate of the stuff over/near him for a kill, similar to the way Shepard can shoot exploding crates in gameplay and cutscenes.
Of course, my Shepards tend to be more Renegade than most of the Shepards in this thread. They're all different, but there are similarities just because the kind of characters I like to watch/read about are the same kind I like to play, and if everyone remembers... my Mass Effect favorite is Saren. xD
About the Garrus kills dossier being brutal, I never thought anything of it. The way I imagine the "death by red sand overdose" scene is Garrus shooting a crate of the stuff over/near him for a kill, similar to the way Shepard can shoot exploding crates in gameplay and cutscenes.
Of course, my Shepards tend to be more Renegade than most of the Shepards in this thread. They're all different, but there are similarities just because the kind of characters I like to watch/read about are the same kind I like to play, and if everyone remembers... my Mass Effect favorite is Saren. xD
#11808
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 08:04
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I think it's also prudent to remember that I think a lot of us approach RPGs like this for different reasons and that has a lot to do with how we interact with and regard characters.
Some of us just like stories and plots. They just like to enjoy stuff they think is fun or cool or whatever. Some of us like roleplaying first and foremost so characters and plots are just fuel for eventualities and scenarios they can play with as they design and use their characters. Some of us (like me) like conundrums and what ifs and like how RPGs let us interpret a situation and make decisions about it. Some people like all of the above. And we're all apt to have very different ways of interacting with specific characters and possibly coming at it from strange angles.
Some of us just like stories and plots. They just like to enjoy stuff they think is fun or cool or whatever. Some of us like roleplaying first and foremost so characters and plots are just fuel for eventualities and scenarios they can play with as they design and use their characters. Some of us (like me) like conundrums and what ifs and like how RPGs let us interpret a situation and make decisions about it. Some people like all of the above. And we're all apt to have very different ways of interacting with specific characters and possibly coming at it from strange angles.
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 21 septembre 2010 - 08:04 .
#11809
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 08:25
Kim Shepard
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I like all of the above, but the roleplaying most of all. 
Mass Effect was actually the first game I played that allowed players to make real choices, and it's awesome that everyone can make different kinds of Shepards. The game can be replayed several times and new stuff can still be found in every playthrough. And Garrus is a character who can get along with so many Shepards with different opinions, probably because he's completely loyal and can be influenced towards Paragon or encouraged towards Renegade.
Mass Effect was actually the first game I played that allowed players to make real choices, and it's awesome that everyone can make different kinds of Shepards. The game can be replayed several times and new stuff can still be found in every playthrough. And Garrus is a character who can get along with so many Shepards with different opinions, probably because he's completely loyal and can be influenced towards Paragon or encouraged towards Renegade.
#11810
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 08:31
lovgreno
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Actualy I can imagine renegade Shepard and Garrus becoming like Saren in twenty years or so.
#11811
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 08:43
Kim Shepard
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No matter how awesome I think Saren is, I can't see Garrus becoming like him in some ways. For example, the hatred for humans. But could Garrus become more like Saren than he is now? Sure. A lot of Saren's brutality seems totally normal for turians after reading some of those Cerberus news articles, and even though Garrus says he's not a good turian... in some ways, he is.
It's definitely possible for Shepard though, depending on what the player wants. I already have a Shepard picked out who's most likely to become Saren. xD There are even more who just share some of his opinions. Some Colonists can understand hating an entire species too.
It's definitely possible for Shepard though, depending on what the player wants. I already have a Shepard picked out who's most likely to become Saren. xD There are even more who just share some of his opinions. Some Colonists can understand hating an entire species too.
#11812
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 08:45
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I also think you have to remember the whole indoctrination thing when it come to Saren.
#11813
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 08:57
Kim Shepard
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Yeah, the indoctrination thing is the main difference. My "most likely to become Saren" Shepard has a few things in his story than can compare though, besides being implanted with lots of tech during his resurrection - giving Reaper tech to an unexpected ally (Cerberus) because it's the only thing he feels that he can do to save the galaxy is the main one. He's a Sole Survivor who thinks working along with Cerberus will be his "saving grace" for now, since TIM wouldn't betray someone who's useful and helping him out. Sound familiar? xD
#11814
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:06
nekhbet
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I guess I'm one of the few in the same boat with Kim. One Shep isn't evil per se, but is sure leading Garrus down the path that leads to ruin and misery (or what I'd personally consider that path, anyway), and I can't wait to see what happens in ME3 as a result. I want to see where all the paths lead to, though.
In which thread is this commentary happening, btw? I'm curious, but there's just too much of posts to wade through....
In which thread is this commentary happening, btw? I'm curious, but there's just too much of posts to wade through....
#11815
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:10
Nilfalasiel
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I can't see either one of the comics! The b/w one is too small even when zoomed in, and the bed one won't zoom in 
Well, Shep *is* most likely a couple of years older than Garrus
Granted, that's probably not enough to justify the "older and wiser" type, but still. I'd also say "wiser" is correct, at least for a Paragon (have never tried Renegade), not in the sense that Paragon is morally better than Renegade, but in the sense that Paragon Shep tends to be very calm and reasonable when explaining things to Garrus. And that's an area where he sometimes lacks: he can let his emotions get the better of him, which can cause problems in tense situations. Hence why approaching them with a cooler head is "wiser". In that sense, Shepard does have an advantage over Garrus and can show him the benefits of that kind of attitude. Which is where the "teacher" image comes from. It's not formal teaching, not "you're wrong, and I'm right, listen to your betters", but "this is something I've learned in my line of work, and I think it's an approach you might benefit from".
I agree with this. In Saleon's case, he specifically states that part of his desire to stop Saleon comes from the fact that "he got away from me". Not that he got away in general, but specifically "from me". It's on the level of "I wasn't good enough to stop him, this time it's personal". And in Sidonis' case, the fact that he perceives the situation as a personal failure (which is confirmed by the email from Nalah Butler) also mitigates his desire for justice. It's another case of "I didn't see it coming, and I let him get away with it". It's subtle, but it is there, and it makes Garrus extremely angry. So, quite apart from the fact that I believe Sidonis should be left to live with what he did for maximum effectiveness, I'm also not sure Garrus wants to shoot him for the right reasons at that precise point in time. Very little time has passed since the attack on the base: it smacks too much of impulsive revenge to sit comfortably with me. Not to mention that killing Sidonis doesn't actually solve the issue of Garrus blaming himself. He blames himself for having been unable to stop the betrayal, and whether Sidonis lives or dies, the betrayal will still have happened. It's something Garrus has to resolve on his own, independently of Sidonis' fate, so believing that shooting him will solve everything is not a constructive approach, IMO.
Again, agreement. At no point do I think Shep is being patronizing towards Garrus. But it is undeniable that she has a more level-headed perspective of the situation than Garrus does. In fact, she has a more level-headed perspective on every single LM, which is probably why the squaddies want her to intervene. Outside perspective, when you're involved in something that strongly affects you on a personal level, is extremely valuable, because it allows you to see things from an angle that your emotions might prevent you from envisioning, at that particular moment. It doesn't mean that, if Shepard someday found herself in just such a situation, she'd automatically manage to be more clear-headed about it than other people.
On other topics...Garrus/Kasumi: I don't see it. I think they could be friends: as has been said, Kasumi is a thief, she doesn't oppress innocents and, if Hock is anything to go by, she steals from pretty unsavoury individuals. Besides, Kasumi is very personable and easy to get along with. But I don't think it would go beyond friendship. Not only is she clearly obsessed with Jacob, but she might be a bit too much of a tease for Garrus to handle.
More generally, I don't think we've met a squaddie with whom Garrus could be romantically involved with yet. I think unromanced Garrus is far more likely to end up with a turian girl than with any other species.
I also agree with Kim on the red sand: it could very well have been a case of shooting a case of red sand that the guy was hiding behind, and him getting some all over his face. I don't quite see Garrus deliberately torturing him. I also think that the quarian criminal who got killed by a cough might have been purely accidental.
Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
I don't think Garrus and Shepard's relationship is explicitly Master/Student because Garrus and Shep set out for that to happen.
*snip*
I can see how that can be interpreted as "teaching." It's not that Shep is older, wiser, or whatever, but Garrus really did learn from Shepard and let it influence him whether it was intended or not so I don't think it's a completely inaccurate comparison.
Well, Shep *is* most likely a couple of years older than Garrus
Granted, that's probably not enough to justify the "older and wiser" type, but still. I'd also say "wiser" is correct, at least for a Paragon (have never tried Renegade), not in the sense that Paragon is morally better than Renegade, but in the sense that Paragon Shep tends to be very calm and reasonable when explaining things to Garrus. And that's an area where he sometimes lacks: he can let his emotions get the better of him, which can cause problems in tense situations. Hence why approaching them with a cooler head is "wiser". In that sense, Shepard does have an advantage over Garrus and can show him the benefits of that kind of attitude. Which is where the "teacher" image comes from. It's not formal teaching, not "you're wrong, and I'm right, listen to your betters", but "this is something I've learned in my line of work, and I think it's an approach you might benefit from".I really do think his anger with Saleon and Sidonis was largely personal in a way that it wasn't for most of the other people he has "punished" over the years. It was a "personal beef" in that respect. I don't mean that he was only doing it to appease his bruised ego. I mean he was doing it for largely personal reasons rather than a general desire to help people and make a difference.
I agree with this. In Saleon's case, he specifically states that part of his desire to stop Saleon comes from the fact that "he got away from me". Not that he got away in general, but specifically "from me". It's on the level of "I wasn't good enough to stop him, this time it's personal". And in Sidonis' case, the fact that he perceives the situation as a personal failure (which is confirmed by the email from Nalah Butler) also mitigates his desire for justice. It's another case of "I didn't see it coming, and I let him get away with it". It's subtle, but it is there, and it makes Garrus extremely angry. So, quite apart from the fact that I believe Sidonis should be left to live with what he did for maximum effectiveness, I'm also not sure Garrus wants to shoot him for the right reasons at that precise point in time. Very little time has passed since the attack on the base: it smacks too much of impulsive revenge to sit comfortably with me. Not to mention that killing Sidonis doesn't actually solve the issue of Garrus blaming himself. He blames himself for having been unable to stop the betrayal, and whether Sidonis lives or dies, the betrayal will still have happened. It's something Garrus has to resolve on his own, independently of Sidonis' fate, so believing that shooting him will solve everything is not a constructive approach, IMO.
I also recognize that Shepard should be doing her best to look at this from Garrus' point of view out of respect for Garrus.
*snip*
He listens to Shep because he respects her and thinks she is worth listening to. That's precisely why he allows himself to be swayed in the first place.
Again, agreement. At no point do I think Shep is being patronizing towards Garrus. But it is undeniable that she has a more level-headed perspective of the situation than Garrus does. In fact, she has a more level-headed perspective on every single LM, which is probably why the squaddies want her to intervene. Outside perspective, when you're involved in something that strongly affects you on a personal level, is extremely valuable, because it allows you to see things from an angle that your emotions might prevent you from envisioning, at that particular moment. It doesn't mean that, if Shepard someday found herself in just such a situation, she'd automatically manage to be more clear-headed about it than other people.
On other topics...Garrus/Kasumi: I don't see it. I think they could be friends: as has been said, Kasumi is a thief, she doesn't oppress innocents and, if Hock is anything to go by, she steals from pretty unsavoury individuals. Besides, Kasumi is very personable and easy to get along with. But I don't think it would go beyond friendship. Not only is she clearly obsessed with Jacob, but she might be a bit too much of a tease for Garrus to handle.
More generally, I don't think we've met a squaddie with whom Garrus could be romantically involved with yet. I think unromanced Garrus is far more likely to end up with a turian girl than with any other species.
I also agree with Kim on the red sand: it could very well have been a case of shooting a case of red sand that the guy was hiding behind, and him getting some all over his face. I don't quite see Garrus deliberately torturing him. I also think that the quarian criminal who got killed by a cough might have been purely accidental.
Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:17 .
#11816
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:19
Kim Shepard
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@nekhbet: I think the Renegade path can lead to happiness. My Shepards are very happy about getting their revenge. It depends on each person if they support it or not. According to the game, Garrus' problems are solved either way because he's focused for the suicide mission, so he does have it in him to be happy about (or at least relieved by) vengeance.
I've said before that it's a good thing my Shepards weren't in Garrus' place. Some of them would shoot through a teammate who tried to stop them. So we should all be glad Garrus would never do that. xD
I've said before that it's a good thing my Shepards weren't in Garrus' place. Some of them would shoot through a teammate who tried to stop them. So we should all be glad Garrus would never do that. xD
#11817
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:23
nekhbet
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Nilfalasiel wrote...
I also agree with Kim on the red sand: it could very well have been a case of shooting a case of red sand that the guy was hiding behind, and him getting some all over his face. I don't quite see Garrus deliberately torturing him. I also think that the quarian criminal who got killed by a cough might have been purely accidental.
It's a loooooot of coincidences and accidents...
A saboteur killed by suit malfunction. A weapons smuggler killed by a smuggled weapon, probably his own. A red sand dealer killed by an overdose. A viral specialist killed by a "cough".
It could be perfectly innocent, of course, but I smell something fishy there.
Kim, yeah, it could lead to personal happiness. But especially for Garrus it could mean trouble. Harkin speaking to the C-Sec about Garrus asking about Sidonis who is later dead, the council revoking Shepard's spectre status after too many "accidents" etc. There's a lot of possibilities for later crap hitting the fan because of recklessness.
I can't wait.
Modifié par nekhbet, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:27 .
#11818
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:27
Kim Shepard
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The first three sound like totally normal ways to kill someone in battle, not particularly cruel. I'm still trying to figure out how he killed someone with a cough though. That one confuses me.nekhbet wrote...
A saboteur killed by suit malfunction. A weapons smuggler killed by a smuggled weapon, probably his own. A red sand dealer killed by an overdose. A viral specialist killed by a "cough".
#11819
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:31
nekhbet
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I don't think they're particularly cruel, either. It's just that they're particularly suitable ways to die for the individuals. There's a pattern there that's a touch too obvious to be 100% accidental, IMO. Once's a coincidence, twice's suspicious, more often usually means it's intentional.
Which leads to the poetic justice debate above, of course. I also don't think BioWare would write it out in such obvious pattern if it wasn't what they intended it to be. Obscure meanings don't work in videogame stories too well.
Of course, that doesn't mean there's no room for personal interpretations!
Which leads to the poetic justice debate above, of course. I also don't think BioWare would write it out in such obvious pattern if it wasn't what they intended it to be. Obscure meanings don't work in videogame stories too well.
Of course, that doesn't mean there's no room for personal interpretations!
Modifié par nekhbet, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:34 .
#11820
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:42
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I actually maintain that there is no "happily ever after" for Garrus with Sidonis. No matter what you pick, some things work out and some things are still unresolved. Garrus is turbulent. He just has varying levels of turbulence. Dealing with Sidonis lets you get him back down to slightly more typical Garrus turbulences levels.
I agree with nekhbet. Garrus knew what he was doing there. And it's lulzy. That's part of why the devs did it.
I agree with nekhbet. Garrus knew what he was doing there. And it's lulzy. That's part of why the devs did it.
Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:44 .
#11821
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Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:46
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Nilfalasiel wrote...
Well, Shep *is* most likely a couple of years older than Garrus
Fair point, and I actually agree. I was just trying to explain how I thought the analogy was valid without it literally being a case of Garrus being Shep's vast inferior in some way.
#11822
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:47
Kim Shepard
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I think it's cool that Garrus managed to kill them all in an "eye for an eye" sort of way. I'm not sure if he really went out of his way to do it like that though. Garrus seems like the type who would kill them as quickly as he could in the most efficient way possible. He definitely wouldn't risk getting killed for bragging rights... but when they fit right into the mission like that, bragging rights are nice to have.
@Ragabul: Yeah, he can't be completely happy with his team dead. He's glad to have the Sidonis problem resolved either way, but he'll still have to deal with being a "sole survivor" now.
@Ragabul: Yeah, he can't be completely happy with his team dead. He's glad to have the Sidonis problem resolved either way, but he'll still have to deal with being a "sole survivor" now.
#11823
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:49
Nilfalasiel
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nekhbet wrote...
I don't think they're particularly cruel, either. It's just that they're particularly suitable ways to die for the individuals. There's a pattern there that's a touch too obvious to be 100% accidental, IMO. Once's a coincidence, twice's suspicious, more often usually means it's intentional.
Which leads to the poetic justice debate above, of course. I also don't think BioWare would write it out in such obvious pattern if it wasn't what they intended it to be. Obscure meanings don't work in videogame stories too well.
Of course, that doesn't mean there's no room for personal interpretations!
Oh, I'm not saying ALL of them were accidental, only the cough one. I don't think the red sand was an accident either. He could have known there was a case of red sand and shot it. I just don't think he plonked the guy down and poured red sand on his face. That would scare me.
Of course I can see the poetic justice in all of them, and I know it's deliberate. But there are ways of being deliberate without torturing people.
As for the cough, the victim was a quarian. That should tell you how it happened. It's enough that the guy had a damaged suit, and Garrus, or one of his men, had a cough while interrogating him or something.
Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Fair point, and I actually agree. I was just trying to explain how I thought the analogy was valid without it literally being a case of Garrus being Shep's vast inferior in some way.
No need for justification, I was agreeing with you in the first place
Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:51 .
#11824
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:53
Kim Shepard
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I forgot the guy was a quarian. xD Thanks, that explains it.
#11825
Posté 21 septembre 2010 - 09:58
tanarri23
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I can see Garrus and Saren being superficially similar in their methods, but there is (and always will be) a huge difference in motivation. Garrus cares about justice and greater good above all else, and in that he is a good turian. While Saren's turian values apparently amount to "Damn, maybe helping Reapers kill everyone to save myself is kinda wrong." and only after you point it out to him*. He's self-serving above all else and cares about justice and his duties as a Spectre only when it suits him.
Shepard, on the other hand, can be played as quite a criminal bastard >
* As far as we know, at least. Maybe he was trying to stall Sovereign (after all, it took him 20 years to do what Shepard does in one game), or believed the Beacons would actually reveal a way for him to kill it. It's just that such altruistic motivation is never even hinted at and instead everything points at that he wanted to cause trouble and got in over his head.
Shepard, on the other hand, can be played as quite a criminal bastard >
* As far as we know, at least. Maybe he was trying to stall Sovereign (after all, it took him 20 years to do what Shepard does in one game), or believed the Beacons would actually reveal a way for him to kill it. It's just that such altruistic motivation is never even hinted at and instead everything points at that he wanted to cause trouble and got in over his head.
Modifié par tanarri23, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:00 .
