29107 réponses à ce sujet

[Fia_Bobia]

You know, after watching this, I was surprised that there wasn't more of this:

[Nilfalasiel]

nekhbet wrote...

Hmm.. just looked at the Codex entry, and it says "The resulting mutation made only one in a thousand krogan pregnancies carry to term. It did not reduce fertility, but offspring viability."

Uhm... there's no way this is possible, BioWare. Pick one. Either it's not "one in a thousand", or it's not "pregnancy" as the word is commonly understood. A population where "one in a thousand" survives does not maintain itself for 1500 years if there's actual pregnancy involved. Unless there's like 100:1 female:male ratio and they do absolutely nothing but breed, breed, breed and even then I think it's quite a stretch, considering not all females are fertile to begin with. Even if they live up 1000 years, they kill each other far quicker than they can reproduce.

Well, first of all, the word "pregnancy" suggests live birth. Also, it could be possible that krogan gestation is very short (shorter than 9 months), which would mean that they have the possibility to make more babies. It's not very plausible, considering how developed krogan have to be (secondary organs and all that), but who knows. As for the "infertile female" thing, I think the krogan just use the term to refer to females who can produce viable offspring. The Codex does say that it's not fertility that's impaired. The females can conceive as they usually do, it's just that most of those foetuses don't survive.

Not sure if that would help make the concept more believable.

But yeah:



He looks quite menacing there.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 29 septembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[nekhbet]

Sialater wrote...

kglaser wrote...

I think that if Garrus was weirded out and wanted to break up something, part of the onus should be on him. Why should FemShep have to do *everything*??
And humans are the only mammals who drink the milk of ANYTHING as adults. That makes us unique (and weird), already. :/

Tell that to my cats who keep trying to steal my breakfast milk. 

Learned habit. Most pets are as messed up as humans in their diets, eating stuff that they wouldn't eat if they weren't in captivity. Not sure if cats have evolved tolerance to milk like western people have, might be that some populations have in fact.

To keep this on topic again... I would imagine turians of "this day" eating a diet that isn't exactly what they ate back some 4000 years... it's a civilisation thing. So, I'd not be surprised if some of them are experimenting with a dextro version of cheese (synthetic or perhaps from some mammal-like animal from Palaven). They're a bit more restricted in what they can digest, though, being carnivores and not omnivores like humans. Not as adaptable.

Nilfalasiel wrote...
Well, first of all, the word "pregnancy" suggests live birth. Also, it
could be possible that krogan gestation is very short (shorter than 9
months), which would mean that they have the possibility to make more
babies. It's not very plausible, considering how developed krogan have
to be (secondary organs and all that), but who knows. As for the
"infertile female" thing, I think the krogan just use the term to refer
to females who can produce viable offspring. The Codex does say that
it's not fertility that's impaired. The females can conceive as they
usually do, it's just that most of those foetuses don't survive.

Not sure if that would help make the concept more believable.

Yeah, short gestation period would be a must. But then they'd be extremely vulnerable and tiny when they'd come out if there's literally hundreds per birth. Maybe some marsupial type pouch for the tiny krogan would work, if they really meant that they're born by thousands and yet have live birth? Laying eggs has the advantage that before the previous load has hatched, the mother can lay another (though most usually don't). In the case of krogan, that would sound like a likely scenario, to make sure there's enough living offspring to replenish the ranks that keep killing each other, plus that they are developed enough to survive when they finally hatch.

I think this is a blooper from BioWare, though. Well, I am hoping it is, at least. Even if they're aliens they can't escape the trade-off laws of nature!

And yeah, that's a Mean Garrus there. He kicks a varren puppy every time we forget to talk about him...

Modifié par nekhbet, 29 septembre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Eradyn]

I'm still of the opinion that they are egg-layers, as it seems to make the most sense considering their biology and planet. High radiation on their planet necessitates thickened skin and scales. Giving live birth to a fully developed turian infantstrikes me as both painful and dangerius. An egg, on the other hand, allows greater protection for the infant and mother as well as keeping the mother from being out of commission for long. Just imo...we'll hopefully find out in Me3.

[General Ashous]

The egg theory is actually a very good idea. It makes sense and is easily believeable. Yes, we must discover the truth in ME3 as well as many other truths such as what Papa V looks like and Garrus' relationship with his father.

[Nilfalasiel]

Eradyn wrote...

I'm still of the opinion that they are egg-layers, as it seems to make the most sense considering their biology and planet. High radiation on their planet necessitates thickened skin and scales. Giving live birth to a fully developed turian infant strikes me as both painful and dangerous. An egg, on the other hand, allows greater protection for the infant and mother as well as keeping the mother from being out of commission for long. Just imo...we'll hopefully find out in Me3.

It might make more sense...but the evidence we have so far isn't pointing that way; if they were oviparous, twins would be something like a miracle, and there would certainly be more fuss made about them. And why wouldn't the Codex mention egg-laying, when it does mention it for salarians? 

Thick skin wouldn't be a problem for live births, but perhaps the children are born with softer scales. I mean, what about armadillos? Those guys also have a carapace, and yet they're mammals. Wiki says their babies are born with leathery skin which then hardens within weeks. Perhaps the process in turians is faster than that. And provided the baby stays sheltered for that period, the risk might not be all that significant.

As for cats drinking milk, is that not normal for them?  I was always under the impression that cats loved milk...

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 29 septembre 2010 - 02:53 .

[Sialater]

It's normal for MY cats. They also eat french fries. Proof that those things are fried in animal fats, I think.



We give birth to babies with giant craniums that have to fit through tubes roughly the size of a quarter. The evolutionary solution? Soft skulls. So yes, I think softer plates would be logical. Also, if they start out soft, they'd be better able to grow with the child.

[nekhbet]

Eradyn wrote...

I'm still of the opinion that they are egg-layers, as it seems to make the most sense considering their biology and planet. High radiation on their planet necessitates thickened skin and scales. Giving live birth to a fully developed turian infantstrikes me as both painful and dangerius. An egg, on the other hand, allows greater protection for the infant and mother as well as keeping the mother from being out of commission for long. Just imo...we'll hopefully find out in Me3.

Oh, the scales and spikes are no problem. They don't have to be born with spikes and scales. They could be smooth and soft when infants and develop thicker skin during the first month of life, for example. It's quite common in animals that have thick carapaces etc. that they're born without and after a certain period post-birth a "timer" clicks in certain cells and they sprout feathers, or spikes or something.

There's an entire branch of biology dedicated to the research of the
endless metamorphoses individuals go through on their way from an embryo
to an adult. Fascinating stuff.

[ciaweth]

I wish a BioWare designer would just come in here and clear this up, once and for all. It wouldn't take a Wall of Text.

[Nilfalasiel]

Heh, more info will always be welcome.

On a completely different topic, I've noticed Palaven being spelled as PalavAn on two occasions now. Once on the shuttle departures list on Illium, and once in Garrus' chat transcript with his sister. Now, once I can dismiss as a typo, but twice?

Something's fishy here.

[nekhbet]

ciaweth wrote...

I wish a BioWare designer would just come in here and clear this up, once and for all. It wouldn't take a Wall of Text.

If their answer is anything like with the krogans, I don't want that. I like my (faint) illusion that they at least thought of the plausibility before deciding these things.

Though, if turians do lay eggs, they're probably a bit like king penguins. Just one egg at a time. Hard to form an equal society with too many kids in a family, and they're also apex predators that don't lose infants to other predators.

[ciaweth]

That (the Palaven/Palavan spelling thing) is weird. Could probably be "smoothed over" by BioWare as poor transliteration between languages.

Modifié par ciaweth, 29 septembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Eradyn]

Of course having smooth, thin skin would be a problem for infants, especially considering their planet. Were it not a problem, there would be no need for adults to evolve/develop thickened skin and scales. Infancy is NOT the time when you want to be even more vulnerable to heightened radiation. It's hard to use earth biology as a launching point considering the variables introduced by our respective planets is substantially different. Simply put, we don't deal with their radiation levels.

The reason it isn't mentioned in the codex may very well be because there is no reason to. The absence of females for other species is explained because there is an in-universe reason for it. It's a big enough deal for the krogan (because the genophage, which relates to their reproduction and hence the mention of clutches) and the salarians, so it's mentioned. There's no huge game-driven reason to go explain turian reproduction because females are present throughout the universe, even if players can't see them. The absence of information is NOT evidence for live birth. All it is evidence of is that devs have not felt the need to expand on turian reproduction.

I do expect turians do not lay large clutches. I would expect one egg would be most common, with two being rarer. Twins would likely be fairly rare but why would it be "miraculous"? That is also not evidence in support of live birth.

Modifié par Eradyn, 29 septembre 2010 - 04:56 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Eradyn wrote...

Of course having smooth, thin skin would be a problem for infants, especially considering their planet. Were it not a problem, there would be no need for adults to evolve/develop thickened skin and scales. Infancy is NOT the time when you want to be even more vulnerable to heightened radiation. It's hard to use earth biology as a lanching point considering the variables introduced by our respective planets us substantially different. Simply put, we don't deal with their radiation levels.

 
Smooth and thin isn't the same thing. Their skin could have a similar metallic composition to an adult's (and the metallic composition is what protects them from the radiation), but simply be more flexible. That doesn't mean it's necessarily thinner. Also, it's normal for an infant of any species to be more vulnerable than an adult.

The reason it isn't mentioned in the codex may very well be because there is no reason to. The absence of females for other species is explained because there is an in-universe reason for it. It's a big enough deal for the krogan (because the genophage, which relates to their reproduction and hence the mention of clutches) and the salarians, so it's mentioned. There's no huge game-driven reason to go explain turian reproduction because females are present throughiut the universe, even if players can't see them. The absence of information is NOT evidence for live birth. All it is evidence of is that devs have not felt the need to expand on turian reproduction.

Yes, just as they didn't feel the need to expand on turian lifespan, because it's similar to humans. Species traits that are very different from humans are mentioned (krogan, asari and salarian lifespan, krogan organ redundancy, asari melding). Why would they not mention something that is so widely different from human biology as egg-laying, when they mention amino-acid difference and exoskeletons? I mean, turians are visible everywhere, but they still explain the exoskeleton. And asari are common enough that everyone would know they're a mono-gendered race, and yet the Codex still explains it. It's like an Encyclopaedia: there will still be an article on human reproduction, even though, as a human, you know perfectly well how it works.

I do expect turians do not lay large clutches. I would expect one egg would be most common, with two being rarer. Twins would likely be fairly rare but why would it be "miraculous"? That is also not evidence in support of live birth.

As previously mentioned, it's extremely rare for an oviparous species to produce viable twins. Most of those eggs don't hatch. It wouldn't be simply "fairly rare". Of course, you could argue that sci-fi biology isn't accurate. But in that case, you could very well make that same concession for live births, protection from radiation, etc.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:12 .

[ciaweth]

It's all headcanon at this point, and arguing over headcanon is usually fruitless.

[Eradyn]

They don't go into detail with the hanar and elcor, either. Doesn't mean it's because their biology is "like" ours; that's my point. And a dev actually DID expand on turian lifespans...that's how we know they are "equivalent" to ours. Again, just because it isn't stated right away is not evidence for or against live birth. All it is evidence of is that the devs have not explained or expanded on it.

Looking at what appears to make the most biological and evolutionary "sense" is what leads me to believe they are egg layers. I have no problem if the devs, in the future, reveal a plausible live-birth reproduction system...but to my mind, when considering their biology (scales, "soft" or not, are still going to more painful and potentially dangerous to squeeze through a birth canal than a protective shell), evolution, planet, and the numerous descriptions by the writers (avian, raptors) lead me to strongly believe egg-laying makes more sense.

And the rarity of twins is not evidence for or against either belief, either. You simply have one case of turian twins, which proves ONLY that twins are a possibility...there is no bearing on whether it is via live birth or hatching that they are born. (And as a side note, the terms "birth" and "born" ARE used regularly for hatched infant animals as well as live-birthed animals.)

ciaweth wrote...

It's all headcanon at this point, and arguing over headcanon is usually fruitless.

True, hence my hope for dev clarification by Me3.

Modifié par Eradyn, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:34 .

[Kim Shepard]

nekhbet wrote...

Re: Saren's suicide. Is it actually possible to kill him the first time around? I've always gone for the suicide, whether or not I was intentionally trying. Would be interesting to try another approach...

It is possible. That's the neutral option. If I remember correctly, Shepard can choose to attack him at any point in the conversation, even after the persuade is started.

Edit: Because I forgot to say that I never choose that option. xD

Modifié par Kim Shepard, 29 septembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[Kim Shepard]

Well, I'm glad I never watched it then... the suicide headshot is bad enough. You mean Shepard doesn't just shoot him?

[Eradyn]

Hmmm...I always drove him to commit suicide versus fighting him, save for one playthrough. Seemed like a good way for him to attempt to reclaim his lost honor and attempt to hamper sovereign.

[nekhbet]

Eradyn wrote...
Of course having smooth, thin skin would be a problem for infants, especially considering their planet. Were it not a problem, there would be no need for adults to evolve/develop thickened skin and scales. Infancy is NOT the time when you want to be even more vulnerable to heightened radiation. It's hard to use earth biology as a launching point considering the variables introduced by our respective planets is substantially different. Simply put, we don't deal with their radiation levels.

Human babies, too, are vulnerable to radiation for their first years, and that's with the lesser radiation. It's not a problem for humans though, the babies have enough of protection in the meantime for short-term exposure and I don't see why a species on a high-radiation planet couldn't have their equivalent of this protection for infants. Radiation is also lesser in caves, for example. It's perfectly plausible that
a turian child spends his/her first weeks indoors/in a cave being cared for,
until their plating has hardened. That's what a lot of animals do on earth. Also, being born out of an egg doesn't mean the offspring is born ready and protected. Quite the opposiste, they're often just as vulnerable in species that actually care for their offspring (which excludes turtles and lizards etc). Considering turians are adults at 15, they have pretty long childhoods and probably are vulnerable enough for a longer time to be thought of as children.

This is a bit besides the ME point, but Earth biology is actually generally accepted as the starting point for thinking what sort of life is out there, for several reasons I won't get into now to keep this discussion on turians.

The reason it isn't mentioned in the codex may very well be because there is no reason to. The absence of females for other species is explained because there is an in-universe reason for it. It's a big enough deal for the krogan (because the genophage, which relates to their reproduction and hence the mention of clutches) and the salarians, so it's mentioned. There's no huge game-driven reason to go explain turian reproduction because females are present throughout the universe, even if players can't see them. The absence of information is NOT evidence for live birth. All it is evidence of is that devs have not felt the need to expand on turian reproduction.

This could be, though I think there was some other explanations offered above, as well.

I do expect turians do not lay large clutches. I would expect one egg would be most common, with two being rarer. Twins would likely be fairly rare but why would it be "miraculous"? That is also not evidence in support of live birth.

My educated guess is that it's because the resources inside the egg are finite and thus the competition between the twins becomes too much for the egg to provide sustenance for both. One has to die early on and sully the egg, or both wither and die because of lack of nourishment at a later point.

You're right that there's no explicit evidence to support live birth. There's nothing solid to support eggs, either. I was thinking of the egg-theory a while back, but considering the kind of society turians have, live births seemed the better option. Live births tend to be a slightly more sophisticated (for the lack of better word) method of reproduction as they allow the animal more flexibility and better protection for the embryo.

ciaweth wrote...
It's all headcanon at this point, and arguing over headcanon is usually fruitless.

I'm sorry if you see this as arguing... I don't think it is. Just fun speculation. I tend to skip the speculations on character personalities, myself, but the stuff that relies on more than just imagination is my sore spot.

Modifié par nekhbet, 29 septembre 2010 - 06:45 .

[Eradyn]

Salarian society is pretty advanced and they're more like amphibians. Krogan were once at least as advanced as we are today, and they come from eggs (they also care about their young). Earth avians can develop strong bonds with their offspring and flock, and will often fight to the death for their offspring. Hatching from an egg, or livebirth, has absolutely no bearing on a society's ability to advance or care for their young/each other. I will agree this is all speculation, but until the devs say otherwise, or until more solid evidence to the contrary arises, I will continue to err on the side of egg-laying.

Edit: Again, to reiterate, earth's radiation is nothing in comparison to palaven's, as evidenced by their evolutionary path. While their young would likely be more vulnerable, I doubt they would be THAT vulnerable. Radiation is a pervasive, invisible threat not to be taken lightly...there's a good reason for that thicker skin and scales.

EditEdit: Misunderstood one of your points above, although I'm going to leave it. Damned tiny phone screens. Still, eggs can provide advantages live births cannot...these advantages are dependent on different variables. I just don't know that live births provide the best advantages considering turian biology, evolution, their planet, and their society.

Modifié par Eradyn, 29 septembre 2010 - 06:55 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Eradyn wrote...

And the rarity of twins is not evidence for or against either belief, either. You simply have one case of turian twins, which proves ONLY that twins are a possibility...

My point was that if twins were as rare as they would be in an oviparous species, there would've been a lot more news coverage about that pair of twins being adopted, not just a mention in passing in a news brief.

(And as a side note, the terms "birth" and "born" ARE used regularly for hatched infant animals as well as live-birthed animals.)

Yes, I'm aware of that. I only mentioned the term "pregnancy" as being more suggestive of a live birth, and that was in relation to krogan. As a side-note, we haven't been given 100% proof that krogan lay eggs either. What we have been given is contradictory information: the Codex mentions pregnancies, Okeer mentions clutches.

This is speculation though, it's in no way an attack of any sort. All I'm saying is while there's no proof either way, I consider that the clues we are given are more indicative of live births. Also because of the point that nekbeth mentioned: hatched infants are just as vulnerable as live born ones, if not more. Yes, the egg would protect the mother while giving birth, but it wouldn't mean the child would be better equipped to protect itself against environmental aggression once out of the egg. Baby birds, crocodiles or tortoises are all extremely vulnerable.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 29 septembre 2010 - 06:56 .