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[Kim Shepard]

mrsph wrote...

He falls off his little glider thing, through a pane of glass, and gets impaled by a huge shard of glass.

Then one of your squadmembers shoots him in the head.

So it sounds mostly the same aside from the "gets impaled by a huge shard of glass" part. ): Poor Saren. Not only do my favorite characters usually die, it tends to be overkill. That's a bad pattern. My other favorites should hide now. (Not Garrus. The good guys are normally immune to that sort of thing.)

[nekhbet]

Eradyn wrote...

Salarian society is pretty advanced and they're more like amphibians. Krogan were once at least as advanced as we are today, abd they come from eggs. Earth avians can develop strong bonds with their offspring and flock, and will often fight to the death for their offspring. Hatching from an egg, or livebirth, has absolutely no bearing on a society's ability to advance or care for their young/each other. I will agree this is all speculation, but until the devs say otherwise, or until more solid evidence to the contrary arises, I will continue to err on the side of egg-laying.

Yeah, I figured it would come off like that... "sophisticated" for the lack of better word. I don't mean that one is more advanced or better, or cannot form bonds or anything like that.
What I mean is exactly that thing about salarians and krogans. It's explicitly said that salarian females are breeders. They are leaders of the society, but they clearly have a task and that is to raise new salarians. Same appears to apply to krogans (though there is a mention of a female battlemaster that gathered herself a harem of men). Turian females, on the other hand, are active politicians and military commanders outside their homeworlds. The few turian females that have been portrayed to us are not homemakers.
Above all there's an equal ratio of males and females, unlike with salarians (of krogans we don't know). That's very typical for live-birthing species, whilst egg-laying species more commonly have variation.

[lovgreno]

As for the turian egg debate, I think we should also consider The Rule of Cool, wich means that if it's cool it's allowed even if it may not make total sense. I personaly would think that turians coming from eggs would be cool enough.



But the rule of cool should be used with some style of course and preferably with at least some pseudo science to back it up. The space opera genre Mass Effect more or less is may require a lot of suspension of disbelief but it can still be overused.

[nekhbet]

lovgreno wrote...

As for the turian egg debate, I think we should also consider The Rule of Cool, wich means that if it's cool it's allowed even if it may not make total sense. I personaly would think that turians coming from eggs would be cool enough.

But the rule of cool should be used with some style of course and preferably with at least some pseudo science to back it up. The space opera genre Mass Effect more or less is may require a lot of suspension of disbelief but it can still be overused.

I'm happy with that, as long as the pseudo-science isn't contradicting itself. That's what drives me up the wall... if you're gonna do it science-based, do it science-based. If you're gonna mock up some BS yourself, mock up some BS yourself. Just do it properly and not half-assed.

Modifié par nekhbet, 29 septembre 2010 - 07:20 .

[Kim Shepard]

lovgreno wrote...

As for the turian egg debate, I think we should also consider The Rule of Cool, wich means that if it's cool it's allowed even if it may not make total sense. I personaly would think that turians coming from eggs would be cool enough.

But the rule of cool should be used with some style of course and preferably with at least some pseudo science to back it up. The space opera genre Mass Effect more or less is may require a lot of suspension of disbelief but it can still be overused.

I agree with the Rule of Cool. Personally, I won't care if it doesn't make sense according to our science. I don't think too much about that sort of thing because it can always be different with aliens.

Even the asari (which, in my opinion, are the biggest "science fail") wouldn't bother me if they didn't flirt with Shepard all the time. I can look past the crazy biology.

[lovgreno]

Yeah the asari as a race could have used a bit more pseudo science work. And perhaps a bit more interesting and alien look but as I don't want to make Garrus mad at me for going of topic I will drop that issue.



But I can agree with mammal style born turians as well, it's no big deal realy. As long as it's not mutant babies of course.

*Sctatching my chin thoughtfully*

...Man, Im glad I am a guy! Not that I have a choice but anyway.

[nekhbet]

Kim Shepard wrote...Even the asari (which, in my opinion, are the biggest "science fail") wouldn't bother me if they didn't flirt with Shepard all the time. I can look past the crazy biology.

Funnily enough, I find the asari one of the best species in this sense. It's clearly pseudo-science and BS, mixed with a good dose of parthenogenesis, but at least they have an explanation there. It's so far out there that it's hard to find an actual contradiction that would spoil the suspension of disbelief (at least for someone who deals with biology stuff daily). I'd be very happy to see the turians given some bizarre background, as well, instead of giving us plenty of hints that match earth biology and then explaining it away as something different, a la krogans.

Modifié par nekhbet, 29 septembre 2010 - 07:59 .

[Kim Shepard]

My Shepard would be happy enough with adopting orphaned turians in the future. She was an orphan too (Colonist background), so it fits her.

As for the egg debate, I think eggs would be cool too. It wouldn't bother me if turians didn't come from eggs though. Also, if turian biology doesn't match Earth biology, twins coming from eggs might not be strange for them, right? But I guess everything can be explained with "the Reapers wanted it this way."

[nekhbet]

Eggs could be cool, but even a turian egg wouldn't have an unlimited supply of nutrients to provide for two. Unless twins are more or less the standard. Then twins from eggs would be no problem, but if they're not the standard there's the problem of resources in a closed system. Whatever their biology is like, it's a safe bet that it follows the normal trade-off rules (even the asari do that... I think).



Here's something Garrus, though:

[Eradyn]

I think that female turians being able to take on equal roles AND being capable of fulfilling its requirements, actively and on a regular basis, is actually evidence in favor of egg-bearing vs livebirth. Egg-bearers' systems are not taxed as heavily and for as long as those that bear young to term and give live-birth. The egg-bearing mother may carry the egg for a small while, then lay it, and then be able to continue in her duties. A mother that carries a child to full term and gives live birth will be taxed more during development, not to mention being less physically capable during the lengthy process (and in turn more vulnerable for a longer period of time), and then still have to care for an infant not fully developed.

An egg-bearing mother spends the energy it takes to develop the shell and provide the young the nutrients it needs, then lays the egg and goes back to work until the hatching. This latter option provides more freedom for the female to match males in turian society. I would also imagine the shell of such an egg would provide necessary protection to counteract the heightened radiation levels...I wonder that it might be a very thick shell.

This is not to say live-birth couldn't work. Of course it is possible and all of this is speculation (from both sides). So I hope others don't think I'm trying to attack them or that I'm somehow married to the idea. Granted, it might seem I am more harshly opposed to the idea of live births...if anything, that would be a prejudice born from debates on the old forum where live-birth proponents argued strongly in their favor only to literally admit, at the end, that they just didn't like the idea. XD I really am perfectly fine with wherever the devs take it and I AM glad to see those of opposing opinions actually meeting with reason and not just arguing against it because they "just don't like it." My current opinion just happens to be what it is, born of the observations made from the games and books, and would gladly shift should the devs prove it otherwise. I enjoy that we can have actual discussions and debates here vs pure fluff and spam. (Although being about Garrus, that isn't such a bad thing.)

Edit: Re:Twins in an egg

First, it depends on the type of twins...fraternal (which wouldn't be a problem) or identical (which most likely would be). It is rare, but not unheard of, for twins to successfully hatch out of an egg, at least according to some parrot breeders who witnessed it happen. I assume it could happen with other avians, although it would still be rare. I think it far more possible for identical turian twins to hatch successfully in ME's timeframe than if it were in prehistoric Palavan. Today, our modern technology allows for greater survival rates amongst difficult pregnancies and those with more unusual variables, where in the past the child(ren), and often the mother as well, would die. I assume it the same in ME.

Modifié par Eradyn, 29 septembre 2010 - 08:53 .

[nekhbet]

Yeah, there are pros and cons to both ways. And yeah, this discussion is definitely not fanatic or aggressive, if it might seem so to some people... at least I am not trying to be a hardass here or anything. I'm not going to be upset or anything if BioWare decides turians lay eggs, but so far they've given them more viviparous traits than what I'd associate with classic oviparous animals (aside from their avian looks). I actually spent a good deal of time on the egg theory, so I'm not opposed to it because I find it "repulsive" or anything, lol.

And yeah, with technology, you could theoretically hatch twins from eggs with success. I actually did some searching for this, but it's really, really rare what can be done right now. Like, one or two documented successful tests on turtles, judging by what GScholar gives me. And that was like one live set of twins out of 3800 twinned eggs or something crazy, in laboratory conditions. Something about chickens, too, but unfortunately it's behind a paywall. In nature, it's even rarer.
But I'd like to think BioWare bases the biology things on what's naturally viable for the species as a result of their evolution and not what's done with genetic modifications etc. technological aid. If the technological aid is considered the "default", then we can forget about the real biology, since it won't matter much.

Modifié par nekhbet, 29 septembre 2010 - 08:57 .

[Eradyn]

Yeah. If we're talkin' turian identical twins, I think it's something we'd have to chalk up to sheer dumb luck or medical intervention (if they hatch). Unless they're fraternal, in which case, REGARDLESS if they hatch from eggs or not...POOR MOM. XD

[Jackalope]

I just wanted to say that when I saw the 'twin turians' thing I just assumed that momma turian layed two eggs in one sitting. Just my two cents.

[nekhbet]

I was thinking earlier... "Are these twins MZ or DZ?", but managed to reign myself in before getting at it.

Next topic: are turians more like XX/XY, ZZ/ZW or haploidiploid? Or something inbetween?

Jackalope wrote...

I just wanted to say that when I saw
the 'twin turians' thing I just assumed that momma turian layed two eggs
in one sitting. Just my two cents.

This isn't a twin, though. That's normal for reptilians and birds. But if this is what BioWare actually means by "twin", they seriously need to either make up more BS science themselves and stop using real world words that have very defined meanings to describe something else altogether in the game, or get a biologist on the team to check up on their lore.

Modifié par nekhbet, 29 septembre 2010 - 09:15 .

[Eradyn]

Of course they're still twins. They're just fraternal. I suppose you could call them clutchmates or nestmates if you need something "fancy," but if there are two and they aren't identical, then they are (fraternal) twins.

[nekhbet]

Yeah, if we apply the normal twinning rules to them, then they're DZ twins. But a true DZ twin from an egg-laying animal is born from the same egg (as bizarre as it sounds like, it is possible for a single egg to fertilise like that so there's two eggs in one and not just by splitting). So if turians lay eggs and there's twins.. they come from the same egg. Else it's just normal reproduction!

Modifié par nekhbet, 29 septembre 2010 - 09:31 .

[Eradyn]

Then we'd have to chalk it up to just how turian society terms it, I guess. There's just too much info we are lacking to be able to make any solid determinations.

[Sialater]

Considering I don't think the, er, mechanics would work if both were not viviparous species... I'm going to cling to my "live birth" idea with both hands until BW pries it from my corpse.

[Jackalope]

Eradyn wrote...

Of course they're still twins. They're just fraternal. I suppose you could call them clutchmates or nestmates if you need something "fancy," but if there are two and they aren't identical, then they are (fraternal) twins.

Oh yeah, I was thinking of that maybe turians usually only lay one egg at the time and twins would be atypical.

I also confess that I am currently eating an omlette.

[lovgreno]

I think that omelette will not be my breakfast tomorrow.

[Eradyn]

Omelettes are delicious. If it's a turian omelette...we need to talk.



@Sialater: The mechanics work similarly enough...remember urinal turian? Aside from the fact that turians are their own species, an alien one at that, I would like to inform you that there are earth avians that are...er...equipped. Yes. That said, again, it can't be stressed enough that turians are alien with their own biology and "rules" that may not line up with our own preconceived notions based off earth biology.

[ciaweth]

Now I want BioWare to wave their magic wand and say "They reproduce by budding off. Sex is vestigial and just for fun, for turians."

[Jackalope]

It is not a turian omelette. Although maybe Garrus likes poached eggs, or custards...excuse me while I go back in the kitchen...

[Cra5y Pineapple]

nekhbet wrote...

I go d'aaawwww everytime I read that. He's so cute and akward.

By the way, I support Asari Genophage Salarian Omlette for Mass Effect 3. Why? Because I can.

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:06 .

[Jackalope]

You know...I can't believe with all the comparisons between birds and turians no one has mentioned the raptors' weird courtship ritual:







I wonder what turians do to show affection...



"Shepard, if you really care, you'll jump out of this plane..."