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[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...
Saren expert here! I had thought that too, before Retribution came out. I'm not sure if you've read it yet, so here's a warning that spoilers are coming. Grayson gained biotic abilities from his indoctrination, much more than he would from the Red Sand they gave him. That, combined with the fact that Saren doesn't use any biotics in Revelation, makes us believe that his biotics come from Sovereign's implants. ...And now I want to look up Sarenfest. 
 

Huh.  That's a really good point.  Though do you think Saren was implanted to the same extent as Grayson by Virmire?  That's when he first displays biotics, and it's before the final set of implants given to him by Sovereign.  Of course, he has a geth arm as early as Eden Prime, so I suppose anything's possible.  And turian biotics are quite rare; it could also be halfway between the two, with the Reaper tech augmenting Saren's biotics.

EDIT: Just read through that Saren discussion Kim linked.  Interesting stuff.  He was never my favorite video game villain--it'll take a lot to dislodge the venerable Jon Irenicus--but he had some of the most awesome scenes ever.  I never felt bad for him the way I did with Grayson, though.  Grayson was no saint, but he didn't bring the Reapers down on himself.  He happened to get on the Illusive Man's poop list, then fought them every step of the way.  Saren actively sought out the Reaper tech at the end of Revelation for his own perverse goals.  I have the same attitude toward him as I do toward Morinth; he's a tragic figure, but not a sympathetic one.  

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 16 novembre 2010 - 12:07 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...
Saren expert here! I had thought that too, before Retribution came out. I'm not sure if you've read it yet, so here's a warning that spoilers are coming. Grayson gained biotic abilities from his indoctrination, much more than he would from the Red Sand they gave him. That, combined with the fact that Saren doesn't use any biotics in Revelation, makes us believe that his biotics come from Sovereign's implants. ...And now I want to look up Sarenfest. 
 

Huh.  That's a really good point.  Though do you think Saren was implanted to the same extent as Grayson by Virmire?  That's when he first displays biotics, and it's before the final set of implants given to him by Sovereign.  Of course, he has a geth arm as early as Eden Prime, so I suppose anything's possible.  And turian biotics are quite rare; it could also be halfway between the two, with the Reaper tech augmenting Saren's biotics.

EDIT: Just read through that Saren discussion Kim linked.  Interesting stuff.  He was never my favorite video game villain--it'll take a lot to dislodge the venerable Jon Irenicus--but he had some of the most awesome scenes ever.  I never felt bad for him the way I did with Grayson, though.  Grayson was no saint, but he didn't bring the Reapers down on himself.  He happened to get on the Illusive Man's poop list, then fought them every step of the way.  Saren actively sought out the Reaper tech at the end of Revelation for his own perverse goals.  I have the same attitude toward him as I do toward Morinth; he's a tragic figure, but not a sympathetic one.  

Jon Irenicus is a fantastic villain. Ahh, Baldurs Gate, the series that got me into gaming at the age of 8...
I feel a little bit sympathetic towards Saren, he raises moral dilemnas and interesting philosophies. He is abviously disillusioned , and I'm not one for the whole 'create me into a machine' sort of thing. But he is a realist. He knows of the cycle of destruction that is caused when a race gets to big for its boots, so he is trying his best to stop that, like Shepard. Except he wants to join the reapers instead of defeating them.
Shepard is your optimistic hero, whether paragon or renegade, but Saren is the fatalistic pessimist, who already has the battle against the reapers down to a defeat. And somewhere, you have to respect that perception.

[Mresa]

yorkj86 wrote...

I just heard Brandon Keener, Garrus' VA, in another commercial.  Keener has a very unique voice.  To the ME community, he will forever be the voice of Garrus, in the same way Rana will always be the face of Samara.

At first I didn't recognize his voice but when he said "My turn.". I just yelled Garrus!

[Sable Rhapsody]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
Jon Irenicus is a fantastic villain. Ahh, Baldurs Gate, the series that got me into gaming at the age of 8...
I feel a little bit sympathetic towards Saren, he raises moral dilemnas and interesting philosophies. He is abviously disillusioned , and I'm not one for the whole 'create me into a machine' sort of thing. But he is a realist. He knows of the cycle of destruction that is caused when a race gets to big for its boots, so he is trying his best to stop that, like Shepard. Except he wants to join the reapers instead of defeating them.
Shepard is your optimistic hero, whether paragon or renegade, but Saren is the fatalistic pessimist, who already has the battle against the reapers down to a defeat. And somewhere, you have to respect that perception.

See, I was more sympathetic to Saren before reading Revelation and Retribution.  Revelation makes it very clear that his initial goal in seeking out the Reaper was pretty much the exact opposite of noble.  He was a massive ****** of a person even pre-Sovereign--an effective if brutal Spectre, but still a racist, amoral, uncaring ******.  If the indoctrination process in Retribution is anything to judge by, Saren was already mostly under the thumb of the Reaper by the time we see him in ME1, and anything he says is suspect.  Retribution showed us the subtlety of the indoctrination, taking the host's intention of resisting the Reapers and using that as leverage.  I believe that HE believes in his own intentions of joining with the Reapers to save the galaxy, but I have to wonder how much of that is Sovereign's influence and how much is really Saren's own judgment.

The fact that he can still have doubts enough to commit suicide over it redeems him somewhat in my eyes--some part of him still knew he was making a mistake and was beating his fists on the glass, kind of like Grayson in Retribution.  It keeps him from being a complete monster.  And regardless, I was always 100% with Garrus when it came to Saren--no matter what his intentions, what his motivations, he needed to die no matter what the cost.  Even if it had been possible to imprison him, I'm not sure I would have done it.

[Kim Shepard]

About the implants, it's hard to say. They were both implanted differently. I don't remember the exact timeline in Retribution, but I think everything happened to Grayson in the span of a few weeks. Saren found Sovereign 22 years before ME1, and he could only feel the effects of his indoctrination enough to be suspicious about it. Grayson was being controlled. Saren was being influenced. But Saren was implanted by a Reaper who needed him to still act like Saren. Grayson was implanted by humans as an experiment.

Saren's geth arm will always confuse me though. From the Grayson experiment, it's obvious that all of the control and influence comes from implants inside the brain. The only thing I can think of is that Sovereign planned ahead and knew he might need to "assume direct control", which would destroy the body because he isn't modifed like the Collectors. The more metal on his body, the more left over for Sovereign to control. And I have no doubt that Sovereign's influence made the idea of becoming half machine more appealing than Saren would have thought otherwise. There was a line in Retribution where Grayson talked about this, and Sovereign probably told the same thing to Saren. (All of the implants on his face minus the blue glow were there before though - the cybernetic eyes, metal on his jaw/mandibles, etc. I'm guessing some kind of battle scars.)

I have no sympathy for Morinth at all. Escaping confinement? Sure. But going after all those innocent people? No. I can understand Saren's human hate. That sort of thing happens after wars, where some people from both sides hate each other for the death of a family member. I have Shepards who feel the same way about batarians. Unfortunately, humans didn't leave a good first impression on the galaxy. Judging by the last page of Revelation, he didn't want to kill all humans. He wanted the Alliance to pay for what they did (which probably means killing some of them), and didn't want humans to have any power in the galaxy. If Saren really wanted them all dead, "humans should learn their place" wouldn't make sense unless he thought their place was in the grave. So the people he would want dead are guilty of killing turians.

[ciaweth]

Mresa wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

I just heard Brandon Keener, Garrus' VA, in another commercial.  Keener has a very unique voice.  To the ME community, he will forever be the voice of Garrus, in the same way Rana will always be the face of Samara.

At first I didn't recognize his voice but when he said "My turn.". I just yelled Garrus!

There's a one-minute version of the commercial as well, where he gets a tattoo.

[IndelibleJester]

That "my turn" cracks me up.

[Mresa]

"My turn"

Now were could Garrus say that in ME? In what situation, to what character? Use your imagination.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...

I have no sympathy for Morinth at all. Escaping confinement? Sure. But going after all those innocent people? No. I can understand Saren's human hate. That sort of thing happens after wars, where some people from both sides hate each other for the death of a family member. I have Shepards who feel the same way about batarians. Unfortunately, humans didn't leave a good first impression on the galaxy. Judging by the last page of Revelation, he didn't want to kill all humans. He wanted the Alliance to pay for what they did (which probably means killing some of them), and didn't want humans to have any power in the galaxy. If Saren really wanted them all dead, "humans should learn their place" wouldn't make sense unless he thought their place was in the grave. So the people he would want dead are guilty of killing turians.

Saren's hatred of humans is one thing, and I agree that it's understandable.  But going after an incredibly dangerous piece of alien technology for the sole purpose of screwing over one particular species when your duty as a Spectre is to protect and defend the galaxy as a whole is something else altogether.  What's more, Saren knew AIs were illegal.  The whole investigation into Sidon revolved around that point.  And anyone with half a brainstem knows the geth are dangerous.  He didn't care about that--he went ahead with his plan to retrieve Sovereign.

Don't get me wrong, I like Saren as a character.  I think his motivations are understandable, but that doesn't make them sympathetic or defensible, at least to me.  And as for Shep and the batarians, Colonist Shep probably loathes the lot of them.  But I think most Sheps would never act on it in as drastic or as potentially dangerous of a way as Saren does, and especially not after being given all the responsibilities and privileges of being a Spectre.

Mresa wrote...

"My turn"
Now were could Garrus say that in ME? In what situation, to what character? Use your imagination.

...umm...the things that sprang to my mind are decidedly not PG-13.  :innocent:

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 16 novembre 2010 - 07:56 .

[mellifera]

Mresa wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

I just heard Brandon Keener, Garrus' VA, in another commercial.  Keener has a very unique voice.  To the ME community, he will forever be the voice of Garrus, in the same way Rana will always be the face of Samara.

At first I didn't recognize his voice but when he said "My turn.". I just yelled Garrus!

Haha, same. I was like "Wait, I'm not hearing it....... Garrus!!"

[Mresa]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

...umm...the things that sprang to my mind are decidedly not PG-13.  :innocent:

*cough* I had something similar in my mind....
BUT to keep it under PG-13. 

A sniping contest between him and FemShep. She nails a few really impressive shots and then Garrus takes his turn and nails a few more very impressive shots. And where it leads after that... Well that isn't anymore under PG-13.

Modifié par Mresa, 16 novembre 2010 - 08:06 .

[Sialater]

Mresa wrote...

"My turn"
Now were could Garrus say that in ME? In what situation, to what character? Use your imagination.

For some of us, that might be better answered in Clan V on the NSFW thread.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Mresa wrote...

A sniping contest between him and FemShep. She nails a few really impressive shots and then Garrus takes his turn and nails a few more very impressive shots. And where it leads after that... Well that isn't anymore under PG-13.

OK, ok, I'll try for something not perverted.

Garrus defending the base during the Archangel mission before Shep shows up.  There's a bit where one of the mercs lobs a rocket launcher at him--he dodges and snipes offending merc in the face.  "My turn!"

That's the best I can do 

[Kim Shepard]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Saren's hatred of humans is one thing, and I agree that it's understandable.  But going after an incredibly dangerous piece of alien technology for the sole purpose of screwing over one particular species when your duty as a Spectre is to protect and defend the galaxy as a whole is something else altogether.  What's more, Saren knew AIs were illegal.  The whole investigation into Sidon revolved around that point.  And anyone with half a brainstem knows the geth are dangerous.  He didn't care about that--he went ahead with his plan to retrieve Sovereign.

Maybe, on some level, he thought that getting any and all power away from humans was protecting the galaxy. Sort of like Loghain from DAO. (Not that I agree with Loghain's methods.) If he knew what Sovereign really was, he wouldn't have acted the same way. In the end though, Shepard probably wouldn't have defeated Sovereign if Saren's body hadn't been possessed. So his human hate might have ended up saving humanity. Who would have thought it?

Don't get me wrong, I like Saren as a character.  I think his motivations are understandable, but that doesn't make them sympathetic or defensible, at least to me.  And as for Shep and the batarians, Colonist Shep probably loathes the lot of them.  But I think most Sheps would never act on it in as drastic or as potentially dangerous of a way as Saren does, and especially not after being given all the responsibilities and privileges of being a Spectre.

I have Colonist Shepards who would go out of their way to kill batarians as long as the mission allowed for it, and Saren was probably the same way with humans. Well, in Saren's case, he just killed everyone. Some Spectres arrest people. He doesn't. xD You're right that my Shepard's wouldn't risk their lives going through geth to get a super powerful and somewhat questionable starship, but if they had all the privileges of being a Spectre before the fate of the galaxy was on the line... at least one of them would have started actively seeking out batarians, with brutal methods and noble goals. (He's the one I'm calling "most likely to become Saren.")

Mresa wrote...

"My turn"
Now were could Garrus say that in ME? In what situation, to what character? Use your imagination.

Infiltrator Shepard and Garrus are on a battlefield.

Garrus: Shepard, you're stealing all my kills.
Infiltrator Shep: *headshot, headshot, headshot*
Garrus: *blocks Shepard's line of fire* My turn!

Anyone think this is why Garrus has a habit of jumping in front of Shepard during battle? In my case, definitely not.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

The reason I think he largely drops the "I wanna exterminate humans" parts of his plans on his own is because in Retribution, it is the process of resisting that breaks down Grayson's mind and gradually makes him less and less suitable to be a host.  Overriding someone's wishes via indoctrination destroys their creativity and usefulness, but subtle influence does not or at least it's much slower.  And influence is easiest when it was already partially in line with what the person was actually thinking. Saren is too useful a tool to destroy or completely brainwash.  The Reapers need him to appear authentic to do what they need done.  I think Revelation Saren is a young hothead and a ****** fresh from some wounds concerning the First Contact War.  I think he changes in-between that time and ME1 and it's not just because of Reaper influence.  I think learning the truth about the Reapers gives him some perspective.  The fact that he attempts to morally justify himself to Shepard (who is a member of a race he hates) speaks volumes to me.  Why try to justify yourself to something you think of as barbaric or backwards?  So Saren to me is a person who in some ways is constantly getting better in his motives and goals, even if his methods remain atrocious, yet in the end, he sees that even his methods are wrong and ends it.  I admire him for that.  I don't think it could or should have ended anyway than how it did, but the moment he pulled that trigger, he earned my respect and my rancor pretty much died.

In Retribution, the Reapers do at first exert overt control over Grayson, but they quickly stop.  They even refer to Saren when dealing with Grayson--recognizing the patterns of self-defeat and fatalism leading to Saren's suicide, and realizing that was what cost them an agent.  Then they proceed to use his own motivations--protecting Sanders, stopping the Reapers, etc. against him to get him to serve their will.  The process was no doubt accelerated in Grayson, but I'm guessing a slower, subtler version of the same process what probably what happened to Saren.

It's possible that Saren, the real Saren, believes what he's saying when he tries to talk Shep into joining him.  It's also quite possible that he's in the same boat as Grayson toward the end of Retribution--he's been indoctrinated to the point where he can no longer consistently draw a distinction between his own goals and the goals of the Reapers.  I'm not saying that part of Saren isn't still there--if he was completely under Sovereign's sway, he couldn't have committed suicide.  I'm just saying that it's difficult to determine how much of Saren's justifications to Shep were really him, and how much was the Reapers trying to indoctrinate Shep by proxy as Grayson did to Kahlee.

Kim Shepard wrote...

Garrus: Shepard, you're stealing all my kills.
Infiltrator Shep: *headshot, headshot, headshot*
Garrus: *blocks Shepard's line of fire* My turn!

Anyone think this is why Garrus has a habit of jumping in front of Shepard during battle? In my case, definitely not.

Ugh.  Garrus even does that with my Adept Shep.  And I'm like, "Garr-bear, I love you, but you're a SNIPER.  I'm a BIOTIC.  Get your cute blue ass out of my freaking way so I can aim a freaking Warp."  Eventually I just learned to micromanage him better--it's essential on Insanity if I don't want him to die every damn fight.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 16 novembre 2010 - 08:54 .

[Kim Shepard]

@Ragabul: I really don't think Saren wanted to exterminate humans. The exact line from Revelation was, "Never again would the turians be forced to bow before the will of the Council, as they had when they'd been commanded to make reparations for the First Contact War. At long last there would be a reckoning for the Alliance. Humanity would learn its place, along with every other species that paid homage to the Citadel." Saren is clearly angry with a lot of people here, but I doubt he wants to kill them all. People who fought in the war, definitely... but the line about humanity is combined with other species too, and he wouldn't want to exterminate everyone who isn't a turian. He just wants turians to have more power than everyone else. (And no, I did not memorize that whole quote, in case you were wondering. xD I copied it from the book.)

I agree that Saren doesn't seem to hate Shepard. He tries to justify his plans to Shepard. He wanted Shepard to join him. Shepard might just be the only human I've ever seen Saren call by name. Their conversation on Virmire didn't give the impression that he hated Shepard either, just by the way he talked and his tone of voice compared to the way he spoke to Anderson in Revelation. And now that I think about it, did Saren say anything at all about Shepard becoming a Spectre? No anger about that? He sounded like he wanted Shepard to find him on Virmire, and the only way for that to happen was Shepard becoming a Spectre.

About Saren's suicide... I'm probably Saren's biggest fan on the forums, and I wouldn't change it either. That was the moment that really made me like him.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
I think this very fact implies that some of these thoughts were already present in Saren's mind.  It's like the Inception point of how hard it is to implant a foreign thought.  If it isn't based on something that is already there, the host rejects it.  That says to me that a good portion of Saren's behavior were his natural inclinations.

True, but it's impossible to determine to what extent.  Grayson is the only person whose head we get into while he's being indoctrinated, so I'll use him as my example.  Grayson's own inclination in Retribution after his escape from Cerberus can be roughly summed up as "See Kahlee."  The Reapers indoctrinate him in such a way that their goal is aligned with his.   That little seed of emotion toward Sanders leads him to nearly kill her and Anderson, and get a whole hell of a lot of other people killed along the way.

Maybe something similar happened to Saren.  He is still a Spectre, after all, and he was a talented and dedicated--if brutal--one.  A simple inclination like "Protect galaxy" could easily be perverted into "Protect galaxy by siding with the Reapers."  At that point, the line between Saren's own inclinations and the Reaper influence get very blurry.

Though I just thought of something interesting--right after Eden Prime, Saren seems all set to kill Shepard.  By Virmire, he's trying to turn Shep to his cause.  One of two things might be happening here.  Either Sovereign, using Saren as his proxy, is trying to indoctrinate Shep, or Saren has actually convinced the Reapers of Shep's value in the same way that Grayson did with Sanders.  He managed to stop the Reapers from harming her by "telling" them that she was valuable.  It's a thought.

[Kim Shepard]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

If Saren's words weren't genuine on Virmrie and he was just being forced to cooperate against his will, why would he be implanted a second time?  If the Reapers had they level of control over him already, they would have no need for secondary implants.  And there is also still the suicide, of course.

I agree. If Sovereign was already controlling him completely, then Sovereign wouldn't have needed to "strengthen his resolve." And if that level of control was already there, I doubt Saren could have come to his senses long enough to kill himself. He wouldn't have been much more than a puppet if that were true.

Sable Rhapsody said...

Maybe something similar happened to Saren.  He is still a Spectre, after all, and he was a talented and dedicated--if brutal--one.  A simple inclination like "Protect galaxy" could easily be perverted into "Protect galaxy by siding with the Reapers."  At that point, the line between Saren's own inclinations and the Reaper influence get very blurry.

I think this is exactly what happened. The fact that he knew no one would believe him about the Reapers (as the Council proved with Shepard), and that there didn't appear to be any way of destroying not just one Reaper, but a whole lot of them on their way to Citadel space, didn't help either.

Though I just thought of something interesting--right after Eden Prime, Saren seems all set to kill Shepard.  By Virmire, he's trying to turn Shep to his cause.  One of two things might be happening here.  Either Sovereign, using Saren as his proxy, is trying to indoctrinate Shep, or Saren has actually convinced the Reapers of Shep's value in the same way that Grayson did with Sanders.  He managed to stop the Reapers from harming her by "telling" them that she was valuable.  It's a thought.

I hadn't thought of that before. Saren did want to kill Shepard because he knew Shepard could mess up his plan, which he thought would save the galaxy. But on Virmire, Shepard wasn't someone who didn't know what she was dealing with anymore. Shepard knew enough about the Reapers that Saren honestly seemed surprised that she didn't want to join him and would rather have every living thing killed by trying to fight. I think that was the difference. Now that she knew what he knew, Saren expected her to come to the same conclusion of what needed to be done, without even realizing that his idea to cooperate with the Reapers was probably put there by the Reapers. He probably did think that anyone who could keep up with him and understand the messages in the Prothean beacon would be useful. (And that second possibility is a really nice thought for MainShep. )