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[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...
I hadn't thought of that before. Saren did want to kill Shepard because he knew Shepard could mess up his plan, which he thought would save the galaxy. But on Virmire, Shepard wasn't someone who didn't know what she was dealing with anymore. Shepard knew enough about the Reapers that Saren honestly seemed surprised that she didn't want to join him and would rather have every living thing killed by trying to fight. I think that was the difference. Now that she knew what he knew, Saren expected her to come to the same conclusion of what needed to be done, without even realizing that his idea to cooperate with the Reapers was probably put there by the Reapers. He probably did think that anyone who could keep up with him and understand the messages in the Prothean beacon would be useful. (And that second possibility is a really nice thought for MainShep. )

I'm personally inclined to think that Saren's ragefit after Eden Prime was his own response rather than Sovereign's.  Grayson describes the Reapers as without emotion or feeling--they just do things because it's an optimal response.  Can't really see Sovereign raging over that--the Reaper doesn't show any kind of emotion other than contempt until the very final fight of ME1, where it seems angry.  As nice as it would be to think that Saren's convinced Sovereign to use rather than destroy Shep, it's probably more likely that the Reaper is trying to indoctrinate Shep through Saren, and it backfired spectacularly.  Shep is, as multiple characters have attested, a remarkably strong-willed person.  She's probably suceptible to direct implantation or the Reaper signal as much as any other person, but I doubt the sort of indirect indoctrination using just words would work very well on her.

[Kim Shepard]

Did you think I meant that Sovereign was the one angry after Eden Prime? I think that response was completely Saren's. He thought that Shepard would mess up everything he did to form an alliance with the Reapers and save organic life, and Sovereign's invasion plans were already so close at that point. There wasn't enough time to come up with a second plan, and no way to stop the Reapers from killing everyone on the off-chance the Council actually believed Shepard. That's enough to make a normally calm and collected person rage.

I don't think Sovereign was trying to control Shepard through Saren. However, the only reason Sovereign would "agreed" to have Shepard join them was if it believed that served a purpose - Shepard no longer being a threat. Sovereign might have planned to indoctrinate Shepard itself. But if Saren had tried, Shepard would have felt the same effects as Benezia, who Saren indoctrinated. Notice how she seems more focused on Saren than Sovereign, and how the process is much less subtle. Shepard is too strong-willed to control in any way that isn't subtle, just like Saren.

Part of Saren's own motivations might have been something as simple as wanting another person around who knew the truth. He had enough doubts and fears to set up research centers that studied indoctrination, and even with all of the scientists, he was still the only one who knew everything. Shepard is the only one who comes close to having that level of knowledge, and if it turned out that he really was being influenced (which he was), then Shepard would have all of the information and a clear mind.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...

Did you think I meant that Sovereign was the one angry after Eden Prime? I think that response was completely Saren's. He thought that Shepard would mess up everything he did to form an alliance with the Reapers and save organic life, and Sovereign's invasion plans were already so close at that point. There wasn't enough time to come up with a second plan, and no way to stop the Reapers from killing everyone on the off-chance the Council actually believed Shepard. That's enough to make a normally calm and collected person rage.

I don't think Sovereign was trying to control Shepard through Saren. However, the only reason Sovereign would "agreed" to have Shepard join them was if it believed that served a purpose - Shepard no longer being a threat. Sovereign might have planned to indoctrinate Shepard itself. But if Saren had tried, Shepard would have felt the same effects as Benezia, who Saren indoctrinated. Notice how she seems more focused on Saren than Sovereign, and how the process is much less subtle. Shepard is too strong-willed to control in any way that isn't subtle, just like Saren.

Part of Saren's own motivations might have been something as simple as wanting another person around who knew the truth. He had enough doubts and fears to set up research centers that studied indoctrination, and even with all of the scientists, he was still the only one who knew everything. Shepard is the only one who comes close to having that level of knowledge, and if it turned out that he really was being influenced (which he was), then Shepard would have all of the information and a clear mind.

Ah, my mistake   Misread what you wrote earlier.

Bottom line is that we'll never know what was going on inside Saren's head. It's even possible that Sovereign previously allowed him to establish the Virmire facility so he could allay his own fears and delude himself that he wasn't indoctrinated.  Rings within rings, mazes within mazes.  Even with a relatively straightforward case like the implanted Grayson, the Reapers couldn't use brute force tactics--my guess is that the stronger-willed the subject, the more subtle and intricate the indoctrination has to be, weaving more and more layers of manipulation.  If Grayson could resist the effects of direct implantation for a week, while imprisoned, isolated, and partially starving, the brute-force method would take a lot longer to work on Shep or Saren, and would probably prompt them to commit suicide off the bat once they realized what was happening.

Wow, we've gotten a little off-topic.  Though I did think of something that relates this to Garrus.  If we're taking on the Reapers themselves in ME3, that means dealing their full payload of power--big f***ing guns, incredibly strong armor and shields, and worst of all, the indoctrination.  How do you think the squaddies, specifically Garrus, would respond to something like that?  Having to kill indoctrinated people, being vigilant for its effects, even possibly being targeted by it?

[Kim Shepard]

I think Sovereign allowing Saren to set up those research projects probably was what happened. It might have even helped Saren not worry as much seeing the obvious effects on others when he didn't see any of that happening to him. But you're right, we can't completely understand everything with the information we have. We can analyze every single line in the games and books until we think we know the answer though. xD (And Saren is technically on-topic. We added "Turian Discussion" to the thread title.)

It's hard to say exactly how someone would respond to the Reapers and the possibility of indoctrination, but I think Garrus would be one of the best at dealing with it. He has a Renegade-style "do what needs to be done to save the galaxy" mindset, enough compassion that he won't go too far, and Shepard. That's a good combination.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...

It's hard to say exactly how someone would respond to the Reapers and the possibility of indoctrination, but I think Garrus would be one of the best at dealing with it. He has a Renegade-style "do what needs to be done to save the galaxy" mindset, enough compassion that he won't go too far, and Shepard. That's a good combination.

I'm not sure about the squaddies.  Even Garrus.  On one hand, Garrus is strong-willed, compassionate, and uncompromisingly good.  On the other hand, he's also hot-headed, impatient, and has trouble dealing with shades of grey.  People like that are easier to manipulate.  The problem is that a lot of the strongest-willed party members Shep has (Garrus, Miranda, Samara, Zaeed, etc.) all have qualities that are easy to play against them.

[Terraneaux]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

It's hard to say exactly how someone would respond to the Reapers and the possibility of indoctrination, but I think Garrus would be one of the best at dealing with it. He has a Renegade-style "do what needs to be done to save the galaxy" mindset, enough compassion that he won't go too far, and Shepard. That's a good combination.

I'm not sure about the squaddies.  Even Garrus.  On one hand, Garrus is strong-willed, compassionate, and uncompromisingly good.  On the other hand, he's also hot-headed, impatient, and has trouble dealing with shades of grey.  People like that are easier to manipulate.  The problem is that a lot of the strongest-willed party members Shep has (Garrus, Miranda, Samara, Zaeed, etc.) all have qualities that are easy to play against them.

Honestly, if anyone can resist indoctrination I'd say Kaiden.  

[Kim Shepard]

I doubt any of them would be able to deal with it as well as Shepard and Saren, if they were actually indoctrinated. But I think Garrus would reach a certain point before it's too late where he realizes that something is wrong and tell Shepard, or Mordin. That could save him. Saren was the type to go through it alone, so by the time Shepard tried to end it, he was too far gone to survive that confrontation. It wouldn't get that far with Garrus. He'll go through a lot of things alone, but he speaks up when it matters. I won't comment on the other squadmates here because that would be getting off-topic (there's a thread in Clan V for that, if you really want to know my opinions about them).

[Stokely]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...



On the other hand, he's also hot-headed, impatient, and has trouble dealing with shades of grey.

True, but one of the main points about him right now is his undying loyalty to Shepard. As long as she fights the Reapers, succumbing to indoctrination would mean turning against her - something he will try to resist until the last.

I wonder if he would be able to fight indoctrinated Shepard, though.

[Kim Shepard]

If it came to that (and I doubt it would, because Shepard is probably the most likely to resist indoctrination out of everyone in the Mass Effect universe), I think Garrus would fight back just in defense. The whole time, he would be trying to get through to Shepard the same way Shepard did for Saren. In my game at least, he was right there when she talked Saren down. If all else fails, Paragon interrupt!

[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...

If it came to that (and I doubt it would, because Shepard is probably the most likely to resist indoctrination out of everyone in the Mass Effect universe), I think Garrus would fight back just in defense. The whole time, he would be trying to get through to Shepard the same way Shepard did for Saren. In my game at least, he was right there when she talked Saren down. If all else fails, Paragon interrupt!

That would be the most depressing thing in the entire universe.  I sincerely hope none of the squaddies are affected by indoctrination, but with the impending Reaper return for ME3, it's definitely a plot possibility.

[IndelibleJester]

Considering Bioware's history of turning something like that on the LI (Baldur's Gate: Your LI gets turned --- *spoilers* --- into a vampire by Bodhi. You have to save them), it wouldn't be strange if this was a plot device for LI...

[Sialater]

Uh... this had better not be what the VS was saved for, either. ~pouts~ But, no, while it has a certain amount of pathos for Garrus (or any other LI) to try to rescue Shepard from indoctrination, I hope that's not the "Bioware twist" they're headed for.

[Kim Shepard]

I don't think it'll happen. What would they do for the Shepards who don't have romantic interests? They couldn't just have no one to save or no one to save them. And, to be completely honest, the Reapers wouldn't have much reason for indoctrinating them. Saren was useful because he could open the relay and no one would suspect him. Shepard would be useful because he/she is the main opposition against them. The squadmates help, but... technically, Shepard can survive with only two of them making it out of the suicide mission for gameplay reasons (needing a squad of two for missions). The Reapers probably wouldn't find them all that useful. Especially since Shepard doesn't have to care about them. Going through all of that just for an emotional impact on their biggest threat doesn't seem like the Reaper's style.

So, I think Garrus is safe. (It's Shepard we have to worry about.)

[IndelibleJester]

I meant the reverse... Garrus getting indoctrinated, or the LI respective the Shepard. In BGII, if you had no LI, then no one was turned into a vampire. It was a LI specific event.

Modifié par IndelibleJester, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:57 .

[Sialater]

That would be unacceptable, too. What if there was no LI?

[IndelibleJester]

I edited the post, sorry. It didn't matter if there was no LI.

[Sialater]

Ah. I see now.



I think it would be cheesy and overwritten to do that. I can see no way for it not to me melodramatic. While ME has it's dramatic moments, it has, so far, skirted the melodrama.

[Kim Shepard]

Sialater wrote...

I think it would be cheesy and overwritten to do that. I can see no way for it not to me melodramatic. While ME has it's dramatic moments, it has, so far, skirted the melodrama.

I agree with this, and it would just seem out of character for the Reapers. If they indoctrinate a different squadmate in different playthroughs just because of Shepard's romance choices... the indoctrination would lose all meaning, in my opinion. An ancient race of sentient machines should be above that sort of "attack your boyfriend/girlfriend" method. There needs to be a good reason why those characters are useful to the Reapers, or possibly even necessary.

Garrus is awesome, but really, how is he useful to the Reapers? He's useful to Shepard, but not even necessary for mission success. I wouldn't worry about him being indoctrinated unless he gets trapped on a Reaper ship after a mission, or some random plot device like that. (Even though Shepard tends to be the last one off the Reaper and Collector ships. It's more likely to happen to him/her than a squadmate who could change every time depending on who you bring along.)

[IndelibleJester]

I wasn't necessarily arguing for or against it. I was mostly pointing out that Bioware wasn't beyond using it before hand for a seemingly emotionless enemy. Though I will admit Bodhi is not like the reapers; it is realistic for her to sink to a level of specifically targeting your lover.

[Kim Shepard]

Yeah, I figured that. Most Garrus fans wouldn't want him to get indoctrinated. xD I just don't expect it either. But the only BioWare games I've played are Mass Effect and Dragon Age, so I wouldn't know their reputation about what happens to the poor romanced characters. (Although, DAO had some pretty bad endings possible.)

[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...

Yeah, I figured that. Most Garrus fans wouldn't want him to get indoctrinated. xD I just don't expect it either. But the only BioWare games I've played are Mass Effect and Dragon Age, so I wouldn't know their reputation about what happens to the poor romanced characters. (Although, DAO had some pretty bad endings possible.)

JE, if you play evil, has some pretty bad endings, as does KOTOR, again if you're evil.  Your poor love interest gets put through the gamut in BG, and canonically there's no such thing as a happy ending for Viconia.  So yeah.  BioWare likes to abuse the LIs.  Or maybe, I should say BioWare games involving David Gaider   With the exception of JE.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Dragon Age only had bad endings for Alistair and Morrigan. Zevran and Leliana were all fine. I think Garrus would be one of the last squaddies to be indoctrinated by the reapers. He is the most loyal to Shepard (even more than Tali in my opinion, Garrus was not bothered about cerberus, but Tali was) if the reapers indoctrinated anyone in ME2, I would say Mordin would be highest priority, possibly followed by Samara. Mordin because of his swarm repellent (or whatever it's called) and Samara because even though she pledges her loyalty to Shepard, she does so to a stranger, and she has little emotional attachment to anyone.

[Sialater]

For those following the adventures of Meghan Shepard and her turian, Chapter 15 of Loved is up.

[Ponyoyo]

Sialater wrote...

For those following the adventures of Meghan Shepard and her turian, Chapter 15 of Loved is up.

Very interesting. I'm excited to see how this story turns out! :3

[Sialater]

Ponyoyo wrote...

Sialater wrote...

For those following the adventures of Meghan Shepard and her turian, Chapter 15 of Loved is up.

Very interesting. I'm excited to see how this story turns out! :3

Well... it's the plot of ME2, so....

I'm glad it's entertaining at least!