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Calibrations: Garrus Love and Turian Discussion


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#14876
Brass_Buckles

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FoxShadowblade wrote...

As a Garrus fanboy, I commend you for the excellent post.

Garrus is much like a student in the first game, struggling to stay good in a bad galaxy, but frustrated that some people are holding him back. Renegade Shepard is a symbol for him, that having no restrictions and black and white morality is a good thing. Kill the bad guys no matter the cost. 

Whereas Paragon Shepard teaches him that not everything is black and white.("Gray...I don't know what to do with gray.") Bad guys are not always purely bad.

In the second game, Garrus has tried to do his best in the bad galaxy, but has become corrupted with vengeance and hatred. In a sense, he has given up living his life, and instead focusing on surviving it. Paragon Shepard can lead him back, not as a teacher, as an equal, even to a point where he can forgive and once again focus on living life, trying to be good. Their relationship can develop from friendship to romance from the strong bond between them from this.

As for Renegade in the second, I cannot speculate. I have yet to play my renegade Shepard(Oops).

As for him killing kids who worked for the merc band, so did Shepard.(Although it never points it out) Even Paragon Shepard, you shoot them in the back when you reveal your not really with them, you can't see under the helmets, they may not be all bad people, but they are trying to kill you.

And Garrus had held that position for over a DAY with a single shot sniper rifle, cut him some slack guys.


I haven't done a renegade through ME2 yet either (gee, thanks, computer issues that lasted nearly two months... and caused me to have to start ME1 over, again), but I do sometimes pick an option other than what my current Shepard would pick, just to see what would happen if I did.  Then I go back and reload.  Basically, Garrus doesn't say anything to you after you renegade him in ME2.  He still seems tightly wound but won't say a word about what he just did--which amounts to cold-blooded murder against a guy who probably wasn't worth the bullet.  But I like to think whatshisname can be redeemed (why can't I remember that name???).  I think the fact that he closes off like that tells me two things:  First, that renegaded, Garrus has a lot of anger boiling under the surface that he's not expressing.  Second, Shepard has just led him down the path of vengeance and hatred.  He's another step farther from the person he was in the beginning, a little bit more jaded and a lot more unforgiving.  I want to think that he'll still keep caring about those who need protection even if you renegade him, but I'm not sure he will.  His reactions during Jack's recruitment and your initial return to the Citadel are... interesting, to say the least.  It's hard to tell whether he admires or despises the brutality--or is so hardened by his life thus far that he simply doesn't care.

If on the other hand you paragon Garrus, you're teaching him that vengeance isn't going to solve anything, and that there are indeed shades of gray.  At the same time, by second-guessing this decision that Garrus has clearly made (even though he seems a bit overly defensive about it to the degree I think he's not as sure about it as he claims to be), you're also undermining him in a way.  He says he knows he wants to do this, but you're telling him you don't think he really does, that this isn't really who he is.  But who are you to tell him who he is or isn't?  I prefer the paragon path here, just because I think the regret of going through with cold-blooded murder against someone who's not trying to kill him at the moment (in fact, who lives in fear of him and guilt for what he's done) would eat Garrus up inside.  The guilt brought on by the renegade path might be the thing that turns him from being a good person to being the same kind of monster as Saren.  Something about his behavior during his ME2 loyalty mission kept reminding me of Saren.  I'm not sure what it was, apart from his general demeanor.

#14877
Sable Rhapsody

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Brass_Buckles wrote...
Something about his behavior during his ME2 loyalty mission kept reminding me of Saren.  I'm not sure what it was, apart from his general demeanor.


I think it was the utter singleminded ruthlessness that reminded me of Saren, both in ME1 and in ME2 Garrus's sidequests, though it came through much more strongly in ME2.  It's funny because it's pretty hypocritical of my canon Shep to be creeped out by Garrus's attitude; she herself is often a cold, ruthless person with no qualms about premeditated murder or even killing innocents so long as there's more net gain than loss.  (For example, electrocuting Kathka, killing Balak, etc.)  But she finds it disturbing in Garrus because he's not like that.  Garrus is, at heart, a compassionate person once you break through the walls and the bitterness.  Seeing him planning the cold-blooded murder of another person, even one who betrayed him, was really jarring.

On a side note, Fill-A-Thon time on the kink meme!  I AM ON A FILLING STREAK.  I am a smut writing, turian-loving, prompt filling machine :devil:

#14878
ReiSilver

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I think the Paragon route could have come off as really undermining if they hadn't handled it the way they did. You don't just say 'we're not doing this', you don't let Sidonis try to run off, you get him talking and Garrus can hear the guy that betrayed him say what's going on and even though you can encourage Garrus not to take the shot he still has a chance as Sidonis walks off and he chooses not to take it.

I think it's showing of a number of things that if you let Garrus take the shot as planned he wants a quick clean kill. I've got to wonder if he thought about confronting Sidonis, if at some point he'd want to yell at him and get him to try and justify what he did before he took him out. Maybe he knew that if he did that it would be too hard to do what he felt he had to, or maybe he just couldn't take the risk of Sidonis seeing him and running.

#14879
Kim Shepard

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Now that TVTropes and good intentions were brought up, it made me think of this one - Well Intentioned Extremist. Do any of you guys think that this one could fit Garrus now or in the future? At least one of my own Shepards, and even Saren to some extent, share some of those traits.

I think what he tried to do on Omega was very noble, and I like his line about people kicking the helpless, so he formed his team to kick back. My Shepards may have different opinions about the cause he was fighting for, but even my EvilShep, who thinks that helping people is pointless and a waste, was very impressed and proud that Garrus managed to make enemies with three merc teams and hold them off. He wishes he could have a whole army of people like Garrus - loyal, strong, and dedicated. (And wouldn't a Garrus army against the Reapers just be awesome?)

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Brass_Buckles wrote...
Something about his behavior during his ME2 loyalty mission kept reminding me of Saren.  I'm not sure what it was, apart from his general demeanor.

I think it was the utter singleminded ruthlessness that reminded me of Saren, both in ME1 and in ME2 Garrus's sidequests, though it came through much more strongly in ME2.  It's funny because it's pretty hypocritical of my canon Shep to be creeped out by Garrus's attitude;

I liked both of Garrus' personal missions (the Renegade path), but aside from the vengeance thing, the way he killed Sidonis didn't particularly make me think of Saren. If a guy betrayed him, I'm sure Saren wouldn't settle for killing that guy by a shot from far away. At the very least, I think Saren would want to see the fear in his eyes, and at the very most, he'd get the same treatment as the batarian from Revelation while Saren questioned him about the betrayal. For Garrus, even though vengeance played a big part in his reasons, the way he did it was more like an execution than a revenge kill. He believed that was justice for his team.

Everyone knows by now that Saren is my favorite character, right? xD And that my Shepards take the Renegade choices when it comes to Garrus? It would be hypocritical to tell Garrus not to kill out of revenge when some of them would have actually shot the poor squadmate foolish enough to try to stop them. They would be very frustrated by a Paragon's forgiving attitude, which is why they get along with Garrus so well. But the things that Garrus and Saren have in common are similarities that my favorite characters tend to have, nothing that would mean Renegaded Garrus is on the path to becoming Saren. There are too many differences between them.

#14880
kglaser

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Kim! Have you seen this??

Saren plushie

#14881
Kim Shepard

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Saren plushie?! :D I'm planning on making one of those. It'll either be really cute or "well, it sort of looks like him."

But my computer always seems to get viruses from deviantart. Can you post the image here?

Edit: I see, the picture was posted in Clan V. It's so cute! :D

Modifié par Kim Shepard, 01 décembre 2010 - 03:28 .


#14882
kglaser

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You're the first person I thought of! :D

Do you think they did a good job?

#14883
Cerrydd

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Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

It occured to me that Garrus in ME2 seems to have his character inspired by Simo Hayha. I mean, he held off hundreds of soldiers with a sniper rifle and then got half his face blown off and lived. Familiar...very familiar...


Wow, nice find! Very similar indeed.

#14884
Kim Shepard

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kglaser wrote...

You're the first person I thought of! :D
Do you think they did a good job?

Definitely. It's so awesome. Looks just like him too.

#14885
kglaser

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Kim Shepard wrote...

kglaser wrote...

You're the first person I thought of! :D
Do you think they did a good job?

Definitely. It's so awesome. Looks just like him too.


I really like the eyes...

#14886
Kim Shepard

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Yeah, the glowing effect was done really well. So are the fringe and faceplates. Seeing one helps give me a better idea of how to make one myself.

#14887
-Skorpious-

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Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

It occured to me that Garrus in ME2 seems to have his character inspired by Simo Hayha. I mean, he held off hundreds of soldiers with a sniper rifle and then got half his face blown off and lived. Familiar...very familiar...

Similar to how Thane is almost exactly like Léon from the French film of the same name.


You should be ashamed of linking that site. I CANNOT STOP READING THEIR ENTRIES. :pinched:

#14888
Mariquis

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And I'm back with a non-photogenic picture of Garrus!

Posted Image

A shame he isn't larger in the screenshot, but I think the turtle look suits him!:lol:
 

#14889
Kim Shepard

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I think Garrus looks adorable there. xD What scene is that from? It doesn't look familiar.

#14890
Mariquis

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It's from Samara's recruitment mission, they very first time you walk in to see her and she's beating the snot out of some eclipses. But yeah the way he's positioned is giving him some serious puppy eyes, haha.

#14891
Kim Shepard

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I guess I wasn't paying attention to Shepard and the team when there were asari mercs flying around, because I did bring Garrus there. But it has been a while since I last played Mass Effect, so I could have just forgotten. I'll have to see what Garrus does next time.

#14892
Sable Rhapsody

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THE SAREN PLUSHIE IS SO UNDENIABLY PRECIOUS.



@Kim: Now that we're back on Saren and morality :D I felt like Garrus killing Sidonis had elements of both vengeance and justice, but the problem was that they were all muddled up. Sidonis DESERVED to die, don't get me wrong. But I think the reason why my Paragade stopped Garrus was his anger. You can hear it in his voice--he's so bitter and furious, and I think she wanted to nip that in the bud before he started acting on it as a habit. Though I do agree with you on Garrus and Saren; while similar in their ruthlessness toward enemies and esp. their vengefulness if Garrus is renegaded, Garrus is never simply cruel like Saren. He has a heart :3 Hopefully that will keep him from skewing toward the extremism of Well-Intentioned Extremist.



As for Paragon Shep, I think it depends how you play. You can play it as "Good Is Not Nice," which gels just fine with Garrus and other more Renegade characters. A less forgiving and more consequentialist Paragade like mine shares Mordin's attitude: life should not be wasted. To that end, she avoids killing whenever it's not necessary, and kills without mercy when she thinks it will save more lives--with no consideration for justice or vengeance. Killing Saleon was suboptimal to trying to arrest him and put him on trial. Killing Sidonis was unnecessary. I suppose the dialogue choices are the same most of the time, but that's where characterization and nuance come in :)

#14893
Kim Shepard

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Now I wonder, if Saren had looked like that plushie during the Virmire confrontation, how many of our Shepards would have joined him just because he's adorable? xD (Although, with the history I planned out for Saren and my MainShep, with Saren knowing that she likes him, I imagine he was completely shocked that she turned him down.)

About Shepard's reasons for stopping Garrus from killing Sidonis, I've definitely heard that one before. Actually, killing him for the wrong reasons seems to be about tied with thinking Sidonis didn't deserve to die at all. My Shepards tend to not care as much why someone is being killed as long as they deserve it, and almost getting a member of their team killed is good enough motivation for them to share Garrus' hate. Some remember losing teammates of their own, and remember that they felt the same way Garrus does. But I guess if the Shepard is a more ruthless type who has ruthless friends, it's just normal to them - where a different Shepard might worry about what Garrus is becoming, mine would think "he's just one of us."

I agree that Paragades and Renegons would get along best with Garrus. I mention my Earthborn Ruthless a lot, and he's a Renegon. He admires what Garrus did on Omega, despite being a former gang member himself, because their reasons were similar in a way. I don't even know what MainShep is anymore. She's nice to everyone she likes, and is an absolute terror to those she hates... but the people she hates don't live very long.

And Saren does have a heart. :) There is a level of cruelty that he considers going too far, and he was probably even more brutal to that batarian in Revelation because of it. "You disgust me. You wanted to torture an innocent victim for your own pleasure. You sick bastard." That was one of the things that made him my favorite character instead of just one of my favorites. He definitely fits the Even Evil Has Standards trope. Actually, that trope is listed for Saren... because of that exact reason. xD

Edit: Because I just realized that I switched Sidonis and Saleon's names by mistake. *facepalm*

Modifié par Kim Shepard, 01 décembre 2010 - 10:02 .


#14894
Sable Rhapsody

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Kim Shepard wrote...

Now I wonder, if Saren had looked like that plushie during the Virmire confrontation, how many of our Shepards would have joined him just because he's adorable? xD (Although, with the history I planned out for Saren and my MainShep, with Saren knowing that she likes him, I imagine he was completely shocked that she turned him down.)

About Shepard's reasons for stopping Garrus from killing Sidonis, I've definitely heard that one before. Actually, killing him for the wrong reasons seems to be about tied with thinking Sidonis didn't deserve to die at all. My Shepards tend to not care as much why someone is being killed as long as they deserve it, and almost getting a member of their team killed is good enough motivation for them to share Garrus' hate. Some remember losing teammates of their own, and remember that they felt the same way Garrus does. But I guess if the Shepard is a more ruthless type who has ruthless friends, it's just normal to them - where a different Shepard might worry about what Garrus is becoming, mine would think "he's just one of us."

I agree that Paragades and Renegons would get along best with Garrus. I mention my Earthborn Ruthless a lot, and he's a Renegon. He admires what Garrus did on Omega, despite being a former gang member himself, because their reasons were similar in a way. I don't even know what MainShep is anymore. She's nice to everyone she likes, and is an absolute terror to those she hates... but the people she hates don't live very long.

And Saren does have a heart. :) There is a level of cruelty that he considers going too far, and he was probably even more brutal to that batarian in Revelation because of it. "You disgust me. You wanted to torture an innocent victim for your own pleasure. You sick bastard." That was one of the things that made him my favorite character instead of just one of my favorites. He definitely fits the Even Evil Has Standards trope. Actually, that trope is listed for Saren... because of that exact reason. xD


OK, he does have a heart, it's just not as big or golden or adorable as Garrus's :lol:  Very few are.  And if Saren looked that adorable on Virmire, I still would've turned him down, but I would've felt horrible about it.  Like denying a very cute, very evil puppy.

As for killing Sidonis, I guess one of the challenging roleplay things I like about Paragon/Paragade is that it's not always about doing what's just, or even what's right.  It's about doing what's BEST for everyone on balance, and that often means stoppering your anger and swallowing your pride; it often does result in sparing the lives of scum who don't deserve to live (usually via arrest instead of letting them walk free like Sidonis).  For example, I really wanted to cap the scientist in Toombs' sidequest.  But there was nothing to be gained from it other than maybe fleeting satisfaction for Shep.  Better to arrest him, interrogate him, and put him on trial to see what he knows.  It results in interesting conflicts where I the player really want to do something rash, and my FemShep wouldn't do it.  Stupid FemShep always gets her way :lol:

#14895
Kim Shepard

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Kind of funny that when Saren shows he has a heart, it's telling him to torture a guy. xD But I really like his lines there. And the adorable Saren plushie would definitely use his puppy dog eyes if Shepard refused to join him... if he could even get through that whole speech without Shepard saying "So cute!" and trying to hug him.

I know what you mean about Shepards. It's really hard to stay in character when you disagree with them, like making my current MaleShep talk bad about Saren. I doubt I'll be able to play through the Paragon route in Garrus' missions, even though it would work for a Shepard I have planned out. Too many Shepards with strong opinions against it combined with "no fictional character messes with one of my favorite fictional characters and gets away with it." As for Toombs, it would have been nice if there was an option to let him shoot the scientist and have Shepard take the blame, but with the choices as they are, a lot of my Shepards would kill the scientist so Toombs can have his revenge without going to jail or it. I wonder, if that was an option in Garrus' loyalty mission, to kill Sidonis for justice if that Shepard didn't want Garrus to kill him for revenge, would anyone have taken it? It seems too much like stealing Garrus' kill to me, but there can be some reason behind it.

Modifié par Kim Shepard, 01 décembre 2010 - 11:01 .


#14896
Sable Rhapsody

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Kim Shepard wrote...

I know what you mean about Shepards. It's really hard to stay in character when you disagree with them, like making my current MaleShep talk bad about Saren. I doubt I'll be able to play through the Paragon route in Garrus' missions, even though it would work for a Shepard I have planned out. Too many Shepards with strong opinions against it combined with "no fictional character messes with one of my favorite fictional characters and gets away with it." As for Toombs, it would have been nice if there was an option to let him shoot the scientist and have Shepard take the blame, but with the choices as they are, a lot of my Shepards would kill the scientist so Toombs can have his revenge without going to jail or it. I wonder, if that was an option in Garrus' loyalty mission, to kill Sidonis for justice if that Shepard didn't want Garrus to kill him for revenge, would anyone have taken it? It seems too much like stealing Garrus' kill to me, but there can be some reason behind it.


It works out most of the time for my canon!Shep for metagamey reasons.  I'm not nearly as extreme or dedicated as she is, but the core of my own morals IRL is utilitarian, like hers.  But the problem is that sometimes stuff in the game just makes me ANGRY.  Like Sidonis.  Or Toombs' doctor.  Or Jacob's creepy father.  And I want to kill them but nooo, that's not the best thing to do.

However, I will commend ME2 for having some really badass Paragon responses to things.  The Paragon Shep can chew out al-Jalani, shoot at Kolyat, and best of all, pistol-whip Archer.  That felt so incredibly good.

#14897
Kim Shepard

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I think both versions of Shepard, Paragon and Renegade, probably took an extra level of badass in ME2. Just like Garrus and... most of the team, really. Renegade Shepard could fit into any of the action movies I watch all the time with those interrupts. I wonder if Garrus thinks they're all as awesome as I do, or if he thinks Shepard is a little crazy sometimes. (Or if he likes a little crazy.)

Jacob's father. >_< Is he one of the few things every squadmate agrees on? If only there was an option for Shepard to kill him personally (because giving him a gun to do it himself just seemed like a really foolish move, in my opinion). Too bad my Earthborn Ruthless will never get to say what he wanted to say in-game, that he would like to send Taylor to prison where he has some old friends. xD But then kill him anyway so the women can have peace. I wonder what Garrus would think about that too. It's one of the times when that Shepard would use his "criminal" mentality to solve the problem, while Garrus is probably still thinking like a cop.

Modifié par Kim Shepard, 01 décembre 2010 - 09:21 .


#14898
Sable Rhapsody

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Kim Shepard wrote...
I wonder if Garrus thinks they're all as awesome as I do, or if he thinks Shepard is a little crazy sometimes. (Or if he likes a little crazy.)
 


There's a line FemShep can say to Kelly about Thane: "I live a dangerous life.  Dangerous men fit right in."  I think that's probably Garrus's attitude, in spite of how often he teases Shep.  Which incidentally, I loved the banter, however sparse, between Shep and Garrus in ME2.  It's absolutely hilarious, adorable, and it really shows how far they've come in becoming equals.

As for Jacob's creeptastic creeper of a dad, that was when I learned to adore Miranda, both for keeping her promise to Jacob and for freaking out at what happened on Aeia.  But I think you're right--just about every squaddie you have is absolutely disgusted with him and thinks he should pay dearly for what he's done.  Even Joker has a line afterwards about it.

#14899
Giggles_Manically

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Zaeed has two lines I like on Aeia:

Any CO who does this too his own men deserves a knife in the spine.



Or if you suggest leaving Teh Prize Sr behind:

<HAH> I would like to see that actually.

#14900
Kim Shepard

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I've never heard that "dangerous life, dangerous men" quote before. That's awesome. Actually, I could see Garrus saying that, calling my Earthborn Ruthless a dangerous friend. It's the truth.

Legion has a hilarious line on Jacob's loyalty mission about organics being creative, if his father is left to die. Zaeed's lines are great too. What did Miranda say there? Hating a guy like that could give me more respect for her, even though she left a really bad first impression with the control chip comment. It's great how all of the squadmates and all of my Shepards, Paragons and Renegades, with all of their differences, can come together and bond over hate for Jacob's dad. xD EvilShep is included here. Even Evil Has Standards, indeed.