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[Collider]

Garrus pretty much has the least reasons to betray Shepard.

[Kim Shepard]

Exactly. As far as I can tell, everyone has their reasons, but not Garrus.

[Collider]

Kim Shepard wrote...

Exactly. As far as I can tell, everyone has their reasons, but not Garrus.

Yep. Shepard would have to do something insane, like side with the Reapers.

Most of the other squad mates are affiliated with some sort of faction. Garrus is his own agent, really.

[Sialater]

Collider wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

Exactly. As far as I can tell, everyone has their reasons, but not Garrus.

Yep. Shepard would have to do something insane, like side with the Reapers.

Most of the other squad mates are affiliated with some sort of faction. Garrus is his own agent, really.

You don't think his mother or sister could be used as leverage?

[tsk16]

I doubt it, he would kill every last one of them if they harmed them, if they released them he would still kill them

^-^

Modifié par tsk16, 08 décembre 2010 - 09:03 .

[Collider]

Sialater wrote...

Collider wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

Exactly. As far as I can tell, everyone has their reasons, but not Garrus.

Yep. Shepard would have to do something insane, like side with the Reapers.

Most of the other squad mates are affiliated with some sort of faction. Garrus is his own agent, really.

You don't think his mother or sister could be used as leverage?

True - but unlike other squad mates he's not part of any factions. He had some Turian pride in ME1, but he seemed to have gotten over that in ME2. And I'm not sure he'd really betray Shepard for his mother or sister.

[Evelinessa]

Kim Shepard wrote...

I really hope there's no forced betrayal from Cerberus in ME3. It just wouldn't make sense when my Shepards haven't given TIM any problems. MainShep gave him the Collector base and the data from that side mission. She wasn't angry with him after Horizon (or any of those other missions a lot of Shepards are angry at TIM about) either. If I had Overlord, she would have let him keep the project just as a personal favor. (I've said it before, she plays favorites. TIM got major approval points for bringing her back to life.) And TIM is a smart guy. He shouldn't betray someone who's helping him, or even someone who betrayed him if they were humanity's only hope. He wouldn't risk testing out Reaper tech on someone as important as Shepard to control him/her. TIM was the one who told Miranda not to put a control chip in Shepard's brain.

Anyway, enough off-topic...

I can't imagine Garrus betraying Shepard either. Shepard is basically all he has at this point, and he's always been loyal to the point that he never really questions Shepard. I don't think he's "unstable", unless we want to say that every squadmate we have is unstable to some extent. For everything that happened to Garrus, he deals with it very well. It's possible that any one of the squadmates could be indoctrinated. I seriously doubt that anyone could resist it on their own. But Saren was indoctrinated for around 20 years in order for the change to be that subtle. There's no time to do that with the squadmates, and if they can't be very subtle, someone would notice. Shepard, Chakwas, Kelly and the others would realize it before they became completely indoctrinated.

Garrus would probably be one of the first to realize something is wrong because betraying Shepard is a thought that would never enter his mind. Sovereign worked with thoughts that were already in Saren's mind to convince him. Saren didn't have someone that he was loyal to and trusted above all others. He didn't have a group with him at all times to notice a change, and those who did... were also on Sovereign. The most important reason of all is that the Reapers would have no reason to indoctrinate the members of Shepard's squad like they did with Saren. Saren was a very important guy with a lot of influence. Shepard's team helps out, but really, Shepard can beat the game without them. Only two squadmates, any two, need to survive. The only one who has any influence is Liara, but the Reapers seem to be past the point of needing someone with inside influence. They're coming right for our galaxy and not trying to keep it a secret any more.

I agree with all this.

But if someone is going to betray Shepard in ME3 then it's going to be either Liara, Ashley/Kaidan, or a new squadmate. Not becauase I definitely think they would betray Shepard, but because betrayal wouldn't be possible for any ME2 squadmate as they could already be dead and I doubt Wrex has any reason to betray Shepard.

[Alienmorph]

... and also Wrex might be dead too.

[tsk16]

I doubt liara has any reason too either though

[Sialater]

Collider wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Collider wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

Exactly. As far as I can tell, everyone has their reasons, but not Garrus.

Yep. Shepard would have to do something insane, like side with the Reapers.

Most of the other squad mates are affiliated with some sort of faction. Garrus is his own agent, really.

You don't think his mother or sister could be used as leverage?

True - but unlike other squad mates he's not part of any factions. He had some Turian pride in ME1, but he seemed to have gotten over that in ME2. And I'm not sure he'd really betray Shepard for his mother or sister.

Well, he wouldn't betray Meghan (romanced).  Dunno about Avery (friendship only).

[Kim Shepard]

If Shepard was indoctrinated (which I think is most likely out of all the characters, besides maybe the Council), then it would turn into another Shepard/Saren situation minus the suicide. Garrus, use the Paragon persuade! He'd never betray Shepard though. Indoctrinated Shepard might think it's a betrayal when Garrus doesn't agree or refuses orders, but at that point, the only real betrayal would be if Garrus left. Or killed Shepard. He's not the type to do either of those.

I don't see a reason for the Reapers to threaten Garrus' family directly because Garrus wouldn't be considered important to them. Palaven (assuming they still live there) isn't likely to be one of the early targets because they want human colonies and Earth. Even if his family was in danger, and there's no doubt Garrus would want to protect them, he wouldn't make a deal with the Reapers to do it. He would warn them, or come up with a plan, but the best way to do that is by working with Shepard. Betraying Shepard, the one person who can save the galaxy, wouldn't help anyone.

And I agree that he would hunt those Reapers and Collectors down with a vengeance for threatening his family. > He'll be like Shepard in ME2... or at least my Shepards, who were really mad about being killed.

Modifié par Kim Shepard, 08 décembre 2010 - 09:16 .

[Collider]

@Kim: Correct. Garrus isn't really an important target. He has no real pull over any group that we know of. Maybe C-Sec, but I doubt they have the highest opinion of him possible considering what happened in ME1 and in between ME1-ME2.

[Kim Shepard]

I don't think C-Sec would listen to Garrus either. He seemed to argue with them a lot before ME1 (about the Saleon case in particular), quit to join Shepard once, and quit again to disappear and become a vigilante or didn't go back at all. In my game, he didn't go back to C-Sec. His record isn't very good for convincing the turians either, quitting jobs like that.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Collider wrote...

@Kim: Correct. Garrus isn't really an important target. He has no real pull over any group that we know of. Maybe C-Sec, but I doubt they have the highest opinion of him possible considering what happened in ME1 and in between ME1-ME2.

The only pull Garrus has is with Shepard personally.  That..could REALLY hurt if it's leveraged.  Depending on the Shepard, a romanced Garrus can be a tremendous weak spot if he's somehow compromised or killed.  I know he's my FemShep's biggest weak spot, the only person where she's willing to bend or break the rules.  Losing Garrus would literally send her off the moral deep end into full blown Dexter-ish monster territory 

[Aeowyn]

So, I just read through some old threads and I came across several people who thought that Garrus was "angsty" and "whiny" in ME2. What's your opinion on this?

I mean, yes he mourns, who wouldn't mourn the loss of 10 of your team mates after having been betrayed by another one, someone who he trusted?

Not sure where the whine opinion comes from.



And in regards to betraying Shepard. Not likely. Don't know if I would agree that he would choose Shepard over his mum and sister though. We don't know what his relationship to those two are, we only know that he doesn't get along well with his father. After all, he does go behind Shepard's back to send collector tissue to the medical centre (which made me awww), so that his mother can get some free experimental treatment.

I think if he had to choose between Shepard and his family (excluding father) it would be a difficult decision.

[Collider]

So, I just read through some old threads and I came across several people who thought that Garrus was "angsty" and "whiny" in ME2. What's your opinion on this?

My thoughts on this subject.

[Kim Shepard]

I think the Reapers are above that "I'll kill/indoctrinate your boyfriends and girlfriends" sort of thing. They wouldn't do something like that just get get an emotional response out of Shepard, or at least they shouldn't. It would make them seem to human, and they don't need to stoop down to our level. Besides, indoctrinating someone depending on their romantic status would make the indoctrination lose all meaning to me.

It's too risky anyway. Not all Shepards care about someone, and they respond to grief in different ways. Saren is my MainShep's weakness, but when he asked her to join him, she did what was best for him even though it wasn't what the Reapers made him think he wanted. When he died, it just made her hate the Reapers and fight that much harder. Sure she has doubts, but the vengeance will always keep her going. She even told TIM that, honestly, she enjoys killing Collectors (and he said something about her having a taste for it now and there are plenty to keep her satisfied, which was amusing). Nice move, Reapers - you've caused your own destruction. xD

As for Garrus being "whiny"... No. If Garrus said nothing about his teammates being killed, those same people might call him heartless. His fans might be worried about his mental state if he didn't seem the slightest bit upset. I think he handled it perfectly.

[RestARose13]

Aeowyn wrote...

So, I just read through some old threads and I came across several people who thought that Garrus was "angsty" and "whiny" in ME2. What's your opinion on this?
I mean, yes he mourns, who wouldn't mourn the loss of 10 of your team mates after having been betrayed by another one, someone who he trusted?
Not sure where the whine opinion comes from.

 

Angsty?  Maybe a little.  He did have his entire squad killed by a traitor.  Who wouldn't be a little ansty?  However, he doesn't go into depression or let it tie him down in such a way that he cannot move forward.
Whiny? Not so much.  A whiny person, to me, is a person who complains about a situation but does nothing to change it.  Garrus is definitely not that type of person.  If he does not like a situation, he doesn't sit around and complain about it.  He takes action.  Either through telling Shep and expecting an explanation or through, well, action such as with Sidonis.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...

I think the Reapers are above that "I'll kill/indoctrinate your boyfriends and girlfriends" sort of thing. They wouldn't do something like that just get get an emotional response out of Shepard, or at least they shouldn't. It would make them seem to human, and they don't need to stoop down to our level. Besides, indoctrinating someone depending on their romantic status would make the indoctrination lose all meaning to me.
 

I'm talking about this in a BioWare meta-plot sort of way, not a "what will the Reapers do" sort of way.  Sorry if that wasn't exactly clear.  BioWare's not above messing with party members or LIs for a gut-punch, though you're right--it doesn't always have the intended effect.

For example, the party member who dies in Jade Empire?  GUT PUNCH.  I was horrified, upset, and wicked pissed.  Kidnapped LI in BG2?  Sucker punch.  And to top it off, the modded fight was a biatch.  Virmire?  Eh...not so much since I was indifferent at best toward poor Kaidan   So your mileage may vary on the effectiveness of this one, but generally, it's a fair bet from a story perspective that messing with the LI is at least going to raise Shep or the gamer's hackles.

[RestARose13]

Kim Shepard wrote...

I think the Reapers are above that "I'll kill/indoctrinate your boyfriends and girlfriends" sort of thing. They wouldn't do something like that just get get an emotional response out of Shepard, or at least they shouldn't. It would make them seem to human, and they don't need to stoop down to our level. Besides, indoctrinating someone depending on their romantic status would make the indoctrination lose all meaning to me.
 

Hmm... I know what I mean to say, but not exactly how to say it so sorry if this sounds confusing.  All in all, I agree.  Focusing on Shepard's LI seems unlike the Reapers.  They're more interested in Shep and things directly related to Shep.  To focus on a LI would divert their attention from Shep.  Indoctrination would take time, time away from focusing on Shepard and instead on the LI.  If that makes sense?

I also agree with the "seem too human" part.  The Reapers are a race of machines, sentiant machines yes, but machines none the less.  They wouldn't get the point of a romance or love and, so, not be able to effectively use it against Shepard.  If they were going to use a LI against Shep, I think they would need to understand how and why it would effect him/her.  Which, they wouldn't be able to seeing as they're emotionless machines.  I think anyway.

[RestARose13]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

I think the Reapers are above that "I'll kill/indoctrinate your boyfriends and girlfriends" sort of thing. They wouldn't do something like that just get get an emotional response out of Shepard, or at least they shouldn't. It would make them seem to human, and they don't need to stoop down to our level. Besides, indoctrinating someone depending on their romantic status would make the indoctrination lose all meaning to me.
 

I'm talking about this in a BioWare meta-plot sort of way, not a "what will the Reapers do" sort of way.  Sorry if that wasn't exactly clear.  BioWare's not above messing with party members or LIs for a gut-punch, though you're right--it doesn't always have the intended effect.

For example, the party member who dies in Jade Empire?  GUT PUNCH.  I was horrified, upset, and wicked pissed.  Kidnapped LI in BG2?  Sucker punch.  And to top it off, the modded fight was a biatch.  Virmire?  Eh...not so much since I was indifferent at best toward poor Kaidan   So your mileage may vary on the effectiveness of this one, but generally, it's a fair bet from a story perspective that messing with the LI is at least going to raise Shep or the gamer's hackles.

Haha, spent so much time comtemplating my last post, I missed this one.
The thing about BioWare's punches, for me anyways, is that they tend to be unpredictable.  If I was able to foresee what was happening, I would be a little disappointed.  But speculation can be fun.

[Kim Shepard]

BioWare meta-plot could definitely make it happen. I just hope that it wouldn't, and that indoctrination would be left out of it, because that would just be disappointing. That is the only way I could see Garrus not being in the ME3 squad, for example, or TIM betraying my loyal Shepards - if the plot demanded it happen that way, whether it makes sense or not. But I trust BioWare, and I'm not too worried about ME3. (It sounds like I have some stuff to "look forward to" in Jade Empire and BG2 though. Yikes. Should I just look up the spoilers now? o_o)

Hihane wrote...

A whiny person, to me, is a person who complains about a situation but does nothing to change it.  Garrus is definitely not that type of person.  If he does not like a situation, he doesn't sit around and complain about it.  He takes action.

I completely agree with this. And it's one of the many things I like about Garrus.

[Evelinessa]

Alienmorph wrote...

... and also Wrex might be dead too.

Yeah, I know. I wasn't thinking of that when I posted but I noticed right after. I didn't bother to edit though.

[Evelinessa]

tsk16 wrote...

I doubt liara has any reason too either though

I'm not saying that she would. I just put her up there because it's a possible role for her since she is a character that Shepard knows well and she can't die so she would be a better choice for a betrayer.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...

BioWare meta-plot could definitely make it happen. I just hope that it wouldn't, and that indoctrination would be left out of it, because that would just be disappointing. That is the only way I could see Garrus not being in the ME3 squad, for example, or TIM betraying my loyal Shepards - if the plot demanded it happen that way, whether it makes sense or not. But I trust BioWare, and I'm not too worried about ME3. (It sounds like I have some stuff to "look forward to" in Jade Empire and BG2 though. Yikes. Should I just look up the spoilers now? o_o)

Hihane wrote...

A whiny person, to me, is a person who complains about a situation but does nothing to change it.  Garrus is definitely not that type of person.  If he does not like a situation, he doesn't sit around and complain about it.  He takes action.

I completely agree with this. And it's one of the many things I like about Garrus.

No, don't look up the spoilers!  I know you're ok with spoilers, but at least don't look them up for Jade Empire.  Jade Empire has one of the most beautiful plot twists I've ever seen.  Not so much a plot twist as a different way of looking at events already described/experienced...and then your brain EXPLODES.  It's amazing.

As for whininess, I agree with Hihane.  I would also add that I typically find characters irritating when they begin to fixate on ONE ISSUE despite other, more important things to talk about.  For example, Aribeth and her idiot boyfriend, or Aerie and her wings.  But to be fair, even if Aerie hadn't talked about her wings ALL THE MARY MOTHER OF F-ING TIME, I still would have wanted to feed her to a box of hungry pirahnas.  With AK-47s.  And nuclear weapons for good measure.