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[Kim Shepard]

Normally, I look up spoilers for everything. But if Jade Empire's plot twist will be anywhere near as awesome as talking to Sovereign on Virmire without reading spoilers, I'll leave it as a surprise. Although, if it would have been like watching Saren kill himself without spoilers... that would be horrible. I'm so glad I knew about that ahead of time. I'm also glad that the Sovereign scene wasn't spoiled. Choices, choices. xD I almost hope there's no one in the game that I like as much as Saren, to spare them the terrible fate of my favorite characters.

I only find it annoying when characters whine about something that is, in my opinion, something they shouldn't whine about. I can't think of an example because none of the squadmates fit that description. They all have something to whine about, but none of them whine about it. (The only character I can think of is Isolde from DAO. I found her annoying.) Most of the characters, including Garrus, know how to deal with their problems.

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Kim Shepard wrote...

 But if Jade Empire's plot twist will be anywhere near as awesome as talking to Sovereign on Virmire without reading spoilers, I'll leave it as a surprise.

I'm thankful I bought ME1 a year or so after it's intial release. Most major hype died down, hence no spoilers. Epic plot twists become more...twisty.

[Kim Shepard]

I bought ME1 a few months before ME2 was released, and found most of my information on the Wiki. Some surprises are good, but I don't like bad surprises. Reloading the final confrontation with Saren and playing through it five different ways trying to keep him alive kind of takes away from the powerful moment. It was better that I knew about that one. Same with Garrus' recruitment in ME2 - knowing he would survive the gunship wound was a good thing. I'll let Jade Empire's twist be a surprise, but I'm still going to read all of the ME3 spoilers, just like I read everything I could find about ME2.

[Giggles_Manically]

The Jade Empire plot twist is quite the suprise.

[RestARose13]

I only recently became a dedicated fan of BioWare and just as recently got a gaming computer.  When I was deciding which games to get, I looked up plot summary and fanart.  So, I knew a few things before I played the games.  KOToR is an example of this.  I'm glad I read about it, but also kinda wish I found out about the plot twist in game.  I knew about Garrus being a squady and a LI before even getting ME1 mainly because of Aimo's art of DevArt.  That didn't stop me from panicing when he took that rocket to the face though.  I was like "But I thought he lived!" and totally thought I had done something wrong.

[Aeowyn]

KotOR was the first BioWare game I played and I still think it was the best plot twist ever (for me at least), only because I truly didn't see it coming and was like "wait a second, that looks very familiar..oh shi-"



And in regards to the whine. It feels like as soon as one of the squaddies open their mouth to say one word about a problem they're having, it's whine. *sighs*

[mellifera]

Hihane wrote...

I only recently became a dedicated fan of BioWare and just as recently got a gaming computer.  When I was deciding which games to get, I looked up plot summary and fanart.  So, I knew a few things before I played the games.  KOToR is an example of this.  I'm glad I read about it, but also kinda wish I found out about the plot twist in game.  I knew about Garrus being a squady and a LI before even getting ME1 mainly because of Aimo's art of DevArt.  That didn't stop me from panicing when he took that rocket to the face though.  I was like "But I thought he lived!" and totally thought I had done something wrong.

Hahahaha, same here! I was just like "Crap, where did I mess up?!"

[kglaser]

Me too!

I thought, "I just found him...and he's dead already?!? What the heck??" o_O

I believe I actually screamed out "NOOOO!" out loud...LOL

And I really wish I hadn't had the plot twist in KOTOR spoiled...I did it to myself, though.

[RestARose13]

LOL!  I even remember thinking "But I was going to romance you!  I waited all through ME1 for that!  You can't die!":crying:

[kglaser]

I was just horribly confused...

Then before I could finish processing it, the cutscene was over, and he was back.

And the next thing I thought was, "dang...his voice is even sexier now that it was before!" LOL

[RestARose13]

Haha, heck I thought all of him was sexier than before! I was like, "Daaang Garrus! I don't think I'll be able to leave you alone!" but then...

"Calibrations" *sigh*

Oh well. Still brought him on every single mission. Did the same thing in ME1. His is still the only trophy I have for "most brought along.'

[kglaser]

The thing I didn't like was how in ME2 the second squaddie you brought on the loyalty missions usually just stood there like a block of wood and didn't say one word the whole time (aside from the usual battle chatter), regardless of who it was. It was a bit creepy, actually.

That didn't happen every time, though, fortunately. Of course, bringing Garrus on Mordin's LM was gold. XD

[mellifera]

kglaser wrote...

The thing I didn't like was how in ME2 the second squaddie you brought on the loyalty missions usually just stood there like a block of wood and didn't say one word the whole time (aside from the usual battle chatter), regardless of who it was. It was a bit creepy, actually.
That didn't happen every time, though, fortunately. Of course, bringing Garrus on Mordin's LM was gold. XD

Yeah, I didn't mind it as much because the focal character of the LM and Shep were awesome, but when there was a bit of dialogue from the other squaddie with you, it was pretty great.

Antique stores, but only if they're classy!! Hehehehe. xD

[kglaser]

yukidama wrote...

kglaser wrote...

The thing I didn't like was how in ME2 the second squaddie you brought on the loyalty missions usually just stood there like a block of wood and didn't say one word the whole time (aside from the usual battle chatter), regardless of who it was. It was a bit creepy, actually.
That didn't happen every time, though, fortunately. Of course, bringing Garrus on Mordin's LM was gold. XD

Yeah, I didn't mind it as much because the focal character of the LM and Shep were awesome, but when there was a bit of dialogue from the other squaddie with you, it was pretty great.

Antique stores, but only if they're classy!! Hehehehe. xD

Another absolute classic! haha
Garrus may have had too few lines (I won't rehash all that again right now, lol), but what he did have was great and memorable.

[mellifera]

Yeah. Of course we want quantity, but quality is good too xD But of course, MOARRRR.

[Faerlyte]

On the subject of whining, I'd just like to point out that people everywhere whine in real life - it's part of being human. Everyone breaks down occasionally, whether they want to admit it or not, and it's completely normal because some days you're just having a crappy time of things and you feel like having a good whine. I have whined. I'm not proud of it when I do, but I'm not about to pretend I haven't dont it. I do my best to keep it to a minimum and to make up for it when I do.

What seperates the truly annoyingly whiny people from the respectable people that occasionaly whine, is whether you can admit to your vices and recognise when you're being a whiny you-know-what, and then kick yourself in the ass so that you can do something about it instead. That, to me, is what makes a character cool, because there are multiple layers to their personality. Because they're not perfect, they're not always suave and not everything they say is the smartest thing that came down the pike, but they fess up to their faults and do what has to be done anyway -  that's pretty damn awesome. That's a person with personality.

Garrus doesn't whine that much. He's stressed out. Call it angst if you want, but the bottom line is people go through bad times. His story line is kind of depressing so really, I can commiserate with the poor guy. You practically have to pry information on the subject from him anyway which is rather contradicting of a whiny individual.

Oh yeah, and about the indoctrination of Garrus idea to get at Shepard. My feeling on that is that, if the Reapers are true machines, they have no understanding or concept of relationships between people and certainly wouldn't be able to grasp love.  It wouldn't make sense for them to zero in on a relationship like that as it means nothing to them - achilles heel of machines maybe? 

The Geth are not quite like them - it's like they've developed a slightly different mind. Reapers, on the other hand, come across as true machines with no emotional thought process whatsoever, so without the ability to understand or grasp the meaning of a relationship like that they shouldn't be able to see its relevency at all.

But who knows. Holy giant wall of text batman! I need to stop talking so much.

[Kim Shepard]

I'd like to believe that the Reapers do understand emotion, but consider it inferior. I think it would make them seem more frightening, and add to the fact that they've been able to predict and shape the evolution of organics for many cycles. But still, I hope that they would see messing around with Shepard's emotions as pointless. Shepard's a super soldier who can deal with his/her emotions and do what needs to be done. Losing someone to death or indoctrination - even a romantic interest, and even Garrus - should not change that. It's a part of every Shepard's personality. Maybe they'd have a moment of doubt, or just fight back with a vengeance, but either way, they'd keep fighting.

And I agree with everyone that said Garrus has great dialogue, but we want more. I know there were a lot more main missions in ME2 than in ME1, so even the same amount of dialogue can seem like less when it's spread out like that. It would be great if MaleShep in particular could have more conversations on the Normandy that make him and Garrus sound like old friends, the way it does on missions. Whenever my current MaleShep finally makes it to ME2, I'm going to miss the Garrus conversations.

[kglaser]

Any character that never complains, or otherwise shows no signs of weakness, is too perfect..a Mary Sue, if you will. I don't like Mary Sue characters in my games; they're boring and hackneyed. Imperfections make a character interesting.

[Kim Shepard]

Or in Garrus' situation, showing no signs of sadness or anger about what happened to his team would make him seem heartless to some. Those of us who know him well would probably worry that he's still in shock. Dealing with it is much better, even if he wants to keep most of the burden for himself... which is the exact opposite of whining. It is strange when characters get labeled that way after talking about their problems because Shepard asked them to.

[kglaser]

Kim Shepard wrote...
It is strange when characters get labeled that way after talking about their problems because Shepard asked them to.

Indeed it is.  I have never understood that complaint.  I always found it baffling that that's the reason people gave for why they didn't like Garrus.  It always seemed like a sort of vague and groundless complaint, unfortified by specific examples.  That's just how I saw it, though...YMMV.

[mellifera]

Yeah... if you keep asking people questions about how they're feeling all the time, people are going to respond. If you don't want to know, don't talk to them!

[Kim Shepard]

It's a complaint that gets used too often, and most of the time it's completely wrong for the character. I think it's just the fact that people who don't like the character are less sympathetic to their problems, and they don't care to hear about them. But that's one of the things that makes BioWare's games so awesome - you don't have to hear it if you don't want to because talking to them is not required for most of the game. Sometimes you don't even have to recruit them. I've avoided characters that annoy me before. When I can avoid recruiting my least favorites or have them killed off in playthroughs, I choose that option for most of my Shepards. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't call them whiners. xD

Garrus, however, is one of those characters that will always be recruited and alive in every playthrough. My favorites die too often in ways that can't be avoided. If there's a chance to keep them alive, I don't care how much I have to metagame it into my Shepards' minds and motivations - they will live.

[mellifera]

Kim Shepard wrote...

It's a complaint that gets used too often, and most of the time it's completely wrong for the character. I think it's just the fact that people who don't like the character are less sympathetic to their problems, and they don't care to hear about them. But that's one of the things that makes BioWare's games so awesome - you don't have to hear it if you don't want to because talking to them is not required for most of the game. Sometimes you don't even have to recruit them. I've avoided characters that annoy me before. When I can avoid recruiting my least favorites or have them killed off in playthroughs, I choose that option for most of my Shepards. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't call them whiners. xD

Garrus, however, is one of those characters that will always be recruited and alive in every playthrough. My favorites die too often in ways that can't be avoided. If there's a chance to keep them alive, I don't care how much I have to metagame it into my Shepards' minds and motivations - they will live.

Yes! This happens to me so much. If I can do something to stop it, I'm doin' it!

[Faerlyte]

Well I think that a machine with a thought process that bypasses all emotions and is set on eradication of organics "for the good of the Universe" is pretty damn creepy. It has no reservations, it feels no guilt, it's highly intelligent and has a thought process that works at speeds we can't even imagine, and you can't reason with it. That's pretty scary to me.



The problem I have with Reapers understanding emotion and just deciding that it's inferior, is that anything that can decide that something is one thing or another, can also decide at any point that it's NOT, and some will, because that's the nature of things - we've already seen that with the Geth. The ability to understand leaves the door open to be reasoned with.



Buuut that's just my take on it.



I liked most of the dialogue all around to be honest. Garrus' was especially good, but I might be slightly biased. I was just happy that they portrayed him so well. I'm not sure why they decided to give him less dialogue though - seems just slightly cheap to pull that stunt. Everyone should have close to the same in my mind, regardless of whether they're an LI.



Just because someone isn't a love interest doesn't make them less interesting as people.

[kglaser]

Yup. It's like people who complain about content on the radio...if you don't want to hear it, change the dang channel, already.

(If only the game would allow the Garrus detractors this option by giving us more Garrus spoken dialogue. haha... )